F T/R Competition Reamer/throat for .223 Rem bolt gun 80-90gn

[memilanuk]

Looking to either throat out an existing .223 Rem 1-7" tw bolt gun barrel, or just set it back and run a new reamer in. I'm open to suggestions to specific reamers, freebore lengths, OAL, etc. that work well in a bolt-gun with dedicated single-load match ammo.

For reference... what I'm starting with is a Savage 12 F/TR w/ 1-7" tw 30" barrel, with what appears to be a Wylde chamber - not too short, but definitely not 'long' either and perhaps a touch loose in the body as I believe that chamber is typically used more in gas-guns (both my Service Rifle & Match Rifle ARs have what looks like the same exact chamber).

TIA,

Monte

 

[teele1]

Monte, Sorry a question on your information. Is a WYLDE chamber legal for F/TR? I know the rule book states a rifle restricted to the chambers of unmodified .308 Winchester/7.62mm NATO or unmodified .223 Remington/5.56mm X 45 NATO cartridge. Not disputing you, just asking the question.
thank you
jim

 

[memilanuk]

Hello Jim,

The commonly accepted interpretation i.e. the one supported by the USA F/TR team and any NRA Referees that I've encountered is that unmodified means not 'improved' as in 'Ackley Improved' where the goal is to materially increase the available case capacity and therefore muzzle velocity, leading to a ballistic edge in competition. Chambers such as the various .308 Win 'match' chambers i.e. '95 Palma, Obermeyer, etc. that are slightly *tighter* than SAAMI spec have been accepted as legit in the past, and while I don't have reamer prints on hand for the Wylde .223 chamber vs. SAAMI, I would venture the opinion that any dimensional changes were done more with an eye towards improved cycling (again, this chamber originated with gas-guns to the best of my knowledge) rather than ballistic performance that there shouldn't be any problems with it either.

 

[teele1]

Monte,
Thanks for the interpretation. I just didn't know what would happen on an F/TR line if a WYLDE chamber was discovered.
have a great day
jim

 

[XTR]

milanuk, One of the guys I shoot with shot .223 last yr shooting Palma with a Wylde chamber shooting 90s. He shoots High Master and shot a 448 or a 449 Palma score at Camp Perry last yr. I don't know if past performance is any indicator but I'm ok with it. I'm putting a Wylde in my Savage mid range .223. I exchanged a couple of emails with the guys at McGowan last week. The site shows a reamer spec that's a standard 223Rem, but after we chatted they said they are going to be putting Wylde chambers in all of their .223 outlet prefits from now on.

I'm sure you could get PTG to make a custom reamer. They have a design on the link below but if you look the throat is only 7 thou longer than a Wylde.

Here is a useful link: Reamer Specs

teele1, There isn't much to "discover" about a Wilde chamber, it's only a few thou different, not like an AI with blown out shoulders.

 

[memilanuk]

Jim,

I forgot to mention... so far the simplest and easiest way to see if a given cartridge / case passes the 'sniff' test is to get a commercial case gauge such as those sold by Dillon Precision or L.E. Wilson Tool & Gauge (makers of Wilson hand dies). If the fired case passes freely into and out of said commercial (SAAMI) case gauge... you should be GTG. Last time I checked, the fired brass from my 26" WOA spacegun upper and my 30" 12 F/TR - both of which have 1-7" tw barrels with Wylde chambers - did so easily.

The fired case gauge seems to be fairly fool-proof in use, and relatively cheap to purchase - enough so that I know *I* have been encouraging ranges that I go to which host Registered matches to get a set for spot-checking cases in the event there are any complaints about a competitor's chamber.

Monte

 

[memilanuk]

XTR,

A few years ago, when I was pursuing the .223 bolt gun thing more seriously I had a series of conversations with Bob Pitcairn from Chilliwack BC. At the time Bob was heavily involved with the Canadian Palma team, and shoots a lot of TR up there as well as down the western USA coast. From what I remember, Bob had collaborated with Dave Kiff to come up with chamber specs that he felt were optimal for .223 bolt gun slow-fire target shooting. The biggest thing that jumped out at me was that he mentioned having 0.120" freebore, which allowed seating the bearing surface of a B82BT or similar bullets well out above the 'dreaded donut' region of the neck-shoulder junction.

Compare that to the Wylde chamber, which is listed as having ~0.062" thou... I think you can see where there would be room for considerable benefit in terms of seating the bullets long. I've shot some surprisingly tight groups, as well as very good scores (mid-range) using a B82BT from the existing Wylde chamber. I just keep running out of room to get the velocities that some people are getting from their guns, and I figure it may be similar to the looooooong F/TR chambers now in vogue for the .308 Win. Back when the '95 Palma and Obermeyer chambers (both excellent, btw) dominated the game, the heavy bullets had to be seated deep enough that it more or less constrained their effective performance to where a hot 155 load could actually keep up in the wind at distance. Once people started cutting their barrels with longer throats, the heavy bullets really started to come into their own. Thats what I'm looking for with a custom .223 chamber here... guess I need to see if I can get ahold of Pitcairn again and find out what the PTG print number for that reamer is and get one ordered, since no one else seems to have anything similar available.

Monte

 

[223ai]

Let me start with this: I AM NOT A GUNSMITH, but my 223 was built up similar to what you are proposing. I wanted a .223 as a trainer for my PRS match gun in 260 and the goal was simple, to copy my competition gun exactly but chamber in 223 for ammo cost and barrel life. I dropped off a 6.5 twist Brux, and a dummy round of LC 2011 brass and B82BT seated to 2.500"....just enough for a little bit of wiggle room to chase lands and still be fed via AICS 223 mags. I don't know the specs 100%, but he used a PTG reamer, and throated the barrel to where the bullets are jumping .010". He really did an excellent job with it.

By far, this is my favorite rifle to shoot, and all others are just sitting there collecting dust. I have around 2500 on the barrel, and expect a useful life of around 4-5k. I load 24.4 grains of 8208 xbr via a Prometheus, wolf SRM primers, and I point the B82BT. I am sending them at a hair over 2900, have single digit SD's, and a calculated BC (after pointing) of .490 G1...which puts me in the 260 realm of performance.

Hope this helps.

 

[gstaylorg]

Monte,
I ordered a GAP Crusader in .223 last fall, which I just received. During the planning stages for that build, I tried to find as much info on different .223 loads/chambers as I could. Below are a couple links to items that might be useful for your question. As you might expect, there is less info regarding 80/90 gr loads and chamber specs for them, but there is some at least.

NJ HiPower - Cartridge Tech Specs

southtexasshooting.org/multimedia/text/223_and_556_chamber.doc

ar15barrels.com/data/223-556.pdf

accurateshooter.net/Downloads/sierra223rembolt.pdf

 

[BillCh]

Monte,
that .120 freebore sounds pretty dang reasonable for the bullets you're wanting to use.

If you're content with the existing chamber dimensions, other than the freebore, just have the it extended out another .050 or so. While you're at it you could have the throat angle cut to better match the bullet you choose. I can't see that the Wylde chamber body and neck dimensions would be that big of a deal for what you want to do. Granted, It is a little big-ish.

Have you tried an 80gr. or 90gr. VLD? I'm thinking if you go this route you could run with a little shorter freebore. Maybe. Just a thought.

As a side note: My 223 AI has a .077 freebore. This was a compromise to be able to take advantage of the Berger 80.5 FB and, to a lesser degree, the 75gr. A-Max. I rarely load anything from the magazine. The OAL of the Bergers is to long for that. If I had it to do over again I very well may have gone to .100-.110. The .077 is just a tad to short for me. I reckon that it would be even worse for you. Now, I realize the 223 AI isn't legal for F T/R, but freebore is freebore.

B

 

[XTR]

I was just playing with my WOA Service Rifle and checking OAL to the lands on 80 Amax and Nosler 77s. Both could use a whole lot more in a bolt gun that was never going to be mag fed, like a whole lot more. I'm at the lands with the Amax at 2.425 OAL, that bullet could easily be seated to 2.550, obviously that won't work in a service rifle, but in a bolt gun it would be great, you just could never shoot light bullets, they'd be rattling down the barrel for a while before they got to the lands.

 

[memilanuk]

Billch,

Yep, the 24" LW 1-8" tw barrel that used to be on my wife's rifle was just stupid accurate inside 600yds w/ B80VLDs. The throat had to have been cut for a freakin' mag length round, though. I had that B80VLD seated 10 thou past a hard jam, and it still only came to 2.400" OAL base to tip. Shot great, ~2840fps, but there was still an awful lot of boolit sticking down below the neck/shoulder junction.

I might have to see if the gunsmith I've been using of late has a shoulder-throater for .224 cal like he does for .30 cal... he has a throating reamer with an adjustable shoulder stop on it so it can be ran in so far and then stopped - thats how we matched (pretty close anyway) the throat from a barrel stub to a new barrel. That might do the trick without having to cut the whole thing fresh (cheaper too). Then again... I was kind of thinking that it probably wouldn't be the end of the world if he lopped an inch off either end of that 30" tube - 1" for a fresh chamber, and the other at the muzzle for a fresh crown.

 

[memilanuk]

Hah! Found it, after digging through old email archives...

I had a .223 reamer designed by Dave Kiff in 2005 with a free bore of .120". It was the longest free bore .223 reamer in North America until now. There is a Norma factory reamer that is .142. The .120 reamer is excellent for all 80 -82 gr bullets. The criteria I use is to have 10 jump at the front for BT tangent ogive bullets and to have about 20 thou between the top of the boattail and the neck/shoulder junction of the case. It ensures the drive band (level area is inside the case neck. That is why I now have a new 164 free bore reamer for the 90 gr Bergers. It will have 20 thou at the top of boattail to neck/shoulder junction and will have 20 thou jump with the Berger 90 gr BT and no jump with the Berger 90 gr VLD secant ogive. The .223 80-82 gr bullet drawing is from Kiff and is dated 9/12/05 .223 Rem Match, drawing #7819. With the 82 Berger BT, the OAL is 2.463" just touching the rifling.

 

[BillCh]

I'd be interested in the brand/model/part # of that throating reamer.

Damn-it.

B