Rifle Scopes Reaming seekins rings?

[kentactic]

i called a local gunsmith and told him i wanted him to mount my seekins base and rings and my SS10x42HD on that. he explained that he was going to ream the rings to make the scope true to the barrel.... is this normal practice for quality rings? total cost 30 bucks...


EDIT: its on a remington 700 action which we all know is prone to crooked tapping

 

[AlabamaShooter]

Re: Reaming seekins rings?

<span style="color: #FF0000"><span style="font-size: 20pt">Heck No!</span></span> I have two sets of seekins rings, they did not, I REPEAT DID NOT, have to be lapped or reamed to mount my scopes. I have mounted two USO scopes in one set and when I took the first scope out there were no ring marks or blemishes from the rings. Save your money or use it on truing up the reciever holes, the rings will be fine.

 

[jasonk]

Re: Reaming seekins rings?

Find a new gunsmith.

 

[kentactic]

Re: Reaming seekins rings?

well i may have him just mount the rings and base and level the scope for me... for 25 bucks or so thats worth it if he does it correctly versus me buying the bubbles and the torque wrench. hes an old timer that just wants some one to talk to so he does the work for cheap...

perhaps Glen could chime in here and reinforce that i infact dont need this to be done.. the reaming that is.

 

[kentactic]

Re: Reaming seekins rings?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Find a new gunsmith. </div></div>

yeah im thinking about it.. lol...so far my old gunsmiths been doing great work (me)

 

[GOP1]

Re: Reaming seekins rings?

If there is a problem, it sounds like it is the receiver. I wouldn't want my rings reamed, but it may be a less expensive option for you, than having the receiver and barrel trued.

 

[kentactic]

Re: Reaming seekins rings?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GOP1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If there is a problem, it sounds like it is the receiver. I wouldn't want my rings reamed, but it may be a less expensive option for you, than having the receiver and barrel trued. </div></div>

well this was all discussed over the phone. as far as i know theres nothing wrong with my reciver/barrel alignment

i explained i was using higher quality rings so it shouldnt need any reaming. he said theres no such thing as rings that are good to go out of the box.

 

[fw707]

Re: Reaming seekins rings?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kentactic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
he said theres no such thing as rings that are good to go out of the box. </div></div>

I think he needs a refresher course in scope mounting 101.

 

[ORD]

Re: Reaming seekins rings?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Find a new gunsmith. </div></div>

THIS!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kentactic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">he said theres no such thing as rings that are good to go out of the box. </div></div>

And he said this because he's an idiot (and wants an extra $30 from your wallet)!

 

[kentactic]

Re: Reaming seekins rings?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And he said this because he's an idiot (and wants an extra $30 from your wallet.</div></div>

that 30 dollars includes leveling and mounting everything... but yeah it sounded funny to ream brand new 130 dollar rings being mounted on a brand new rifle.

say no more...

if you want something done right youve got to do it yourself.

 

[427Cobra]

Re: Reaming seekins rings?

Do they NEED reamed, no, I bet he ment lapped, but most people fail to understand what that means, so he uses the word reamed, anyway I lap all my rings, this ensures there is no stress on the scope tube, for a little more than a 100 dollar bill you can buy a Wheeler 30mm lapping bar with lapping compound, and a Borka Torque wrench to torque everything, after your done you'll have some more tools which is never a bad thing.

 

[kentactic]

Re: Reaming seekins rings?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do they NEED reamed, no, I bet he ment lapped, but most people fail to understand what that means, so he uses the word reamed, anyway I lap all my rings, this ensures there is no stress on the scope tube, for a little more than a 100 dollar bill you can buy a Wheeler 30mm lapping bar with lapping compound, and a Borka Torque wrench to torque everything, after your done you'll have some more tools which is never a bad thing. </div></div>

yeah he perhaps said lap aswell.... he talks alot. but he told me that he was going to take down any edges on the rings or i guess high spots which i would assume is what lapping is.

i told him they were 30mm and he said he had no reamer for that.... kinda confusing exactly what he planned to do...

but he said he does this so it dosent scratch the scope... i said dude i dont care if you take sand paper to the finish im probably gonna hit it with a freakin rattle can sooner or later anyways. although i realize that rings that scratch the finish are rings with high spots.

so wether i have him do it or i buy the crap dosent really matter..the magic question is... to lap/ream or not to lap/ream?

 

[Wild_Bill]

Re: Reaming seekins rings?

it sounds like he was going to ream the rings there are reaming bars out there to ream the inside dimensions of rings. the finish on Seekins rings is awsome you dont need to ream them. also with alloy rings is is not the best to lap them if they are mated well i know Nightforce says it is OK to lap steel rings but not to do the alloy ones. Glens finish will not damage the SS scope just level them up and tension them yourself if he dows not use 30mm rings he has likley never used anything like a seekins base or rings ans might noy have the larger Torks sockets anyway.

Do it yourself or find someone else to help you.

 

[kentactic]

Re: Reaming seekins rings?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wild_Bill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">it sounds like he was going to ream the rings there are reaming bars out there to ream the inside dimensions of rings. the finish on Seekins rings is awsome you dont need to ream them. also with alloy rings is is not the best to lap them if they are mated well i know Nightforce says it is OK to lap steel rings but not to do the alloy ones. Glens finish will not damage the SS scope just level them up and tension them yourself if he dows not use 30mm rings he has likley never used anything like a seekins base or rings ans might noy have the larger Torks sockets anyway.

Do it yourself or find someone else to help you. </div></div>

ok yeah he is an old timer and matte finishes and synthetic stocks are like reading chinese to him. he said he had all the torx bits needed but the fact that when i said 20MOA base and he got quiet in confusion makes me worry.... i think im better off alone.


ha one funny thing though he was telling me how he made a 22-250 into a 17-250 to try and break 5000fps he has hit around 4500 fps but the bullets just break apart as they leave the barrel so he has to make his own solid copper bullets... i think he gave up on it but kind of a funny project.

 

[XL Mammal]

Re: Reaming seekins rings?

Run away! But the bullet breaking apart can happen.

 

[kentactic]

Re: Reaming seekins rings?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mammal</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Run away! But the bullet breaking apart can happen. </div></div>

yeah i knew that one just thought id give you guys a little taste of this guys style... lol

 

[PittsDriver]

Re: Reaming seekins rings?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Find a new gunsmith.</div></div>

Buy the torque wrench and do it yourself. You'll be happy you did. Wheeler Fat wrench is a good all around choice. You will find you use it for much more than rings and bases.

RT

 

[Aqua Mark]

Re: Reaming seekins rings?

You don't need nor want a gunsmith to mount a scope and rings. You first need to set eye relief and figure where its to be mounted, and ring placement in relation to the scope. Then mount it up, using whatever method works best for you (level or feeler gauge). This is the most basic of tasks that a shooter should be able to perform as needed. You need a torque wrench to periodically check your action bolts anyway. Its not hard, find someone to show you, and then your confidence in yourself and your equipment will grow. Changing your vehicle's oil or grilling a good burger is actually more difficult...

I do not lap Seekins or NF AL rings, but I have lapped Smith Enterprise steel ones.

Good luck with your project. Mark

 

[kentactic]

Re: Reaming seekins rings?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Storm Tactical</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You don't need nor want a gunsmith to mount a scope and rings. You first need to set eye relief and figure where its to be mounted, and ring placement in relation to the scope. Then mount it up, using whatever method works best for you (level or feeler gauge). This is the most basic of tasks that a shooter should be able to perform as needed. You need a torque wrench to periodically check your action bolts anyway. Its not hard, find someone to show you, and then your confidence in yourself and your equipment will grow. Changing your vehicle's oil or grilling a good burger is actually more difficult...

I do not lap Seekins or NF AL rings, but I have lapped Smith Enterprise steel ones.

Good luck with your project. Mark </div></div>

yeah i have the torque wrench just need to get the torx bits.. thats a good point because he dosent know where my eye releif will end up unless im there while he does it. every now and then i think about leaving stuff to the professionals.. im actually quite handy around a car never using a mechanic to do anything. i dont have a "gearhead" tattooed on my arm for nothing lol... ill just get the bits and do it myself..

oh one question... medium locktite on the base bolts.. what about on the bolts in the rings... they need locktite?

also i just bought your 6 ring databook a couple weeks ago... nice stuff... i appreciate the fact that you through in the pen and notepad. i hadnt realized the kit was the same price as the 6 ring book and cover by itself. very good. 5 stars and 2 thumbs up for storm tactical!

 

[azimutha]

Re: Reaming seekins rings?

Like WildBill said, he probably has never seen Seekins rings...and has probably seen a metric sh** ton of crappy rings, mounted in crappy dovetail two-piece bases. I've mounted Seekins rings and bases on two Rem. 700s and had no alignment issues. Both scopes have been out of the rings - one so I could mount an ACI and the other to have it retrofitted. Neither had any ring marks. It seems to me lapping something that good would be more likely to cause it to be out of whack.

 

[jrob300]

Re: Reaming seekins rings?

The best rings in the world if mounted to a system that is out of alignment, will need something to bring them back in to the same plane. Some rings benefit from lapping regardless... Burris XTR come to mind. But Seekins do not.

Get a high quality rail (I see you bought Seekins... nevermind) check it for flat with a straight edge (to make sure it didn't get bent in shipping), verify its fit on your receiver (do the gap test for both ends), bed if necessary, install your rings and don't look back.

Lapping (or reaming) rings is not ALWAYS a statement about the rings.

John

 

[PittsDriver]

Re: Reaming seekins rings?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kentactic</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> yeah i have the torque wrench just need to get the torx bits. </div></div>

Wrenching on the car, the torque is in pound/feet. I know it's obvious but here's the friendly reminder, the torque wrench you want to use needs to be calibrated for pound/inches.

Happy motoring......

RT

 

[Aqua Mark]

Re: Reaming seekins rings?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kentactic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">yeah i have the torque wrench just need to get the torx bits.. thats a good point because he dosent know where my eye releif will end up unless im there while he does it. every now and then i think about leaving stuff to the professionals.. im actually quite handy around a car never using a mechanic to do anything. i dont have a "gearhead" tattooed on my arm for nothing lol... ill just get the bits and do it myself..

oh one question... medium locktite on the base bolts.. what about on the bolts in the rings... they need locktite?

also i just bought your 6 ring databook a couple weeks ago... nice stuff... i appreciate the fact that you through in the pen and notepad. i hadnt realized the kit was the same price as the 6 ring book and cover by itself. very good. 5 stars and 2 thumbs up for storm tactical! </div></div>

Thanks for the kind words. I would defer to Glen Seekins about whether to put locktite on his AL rings. I have used it on some occasions and not used it at other times.

Good point above about checking the base too. The REM700 receiver will most likely not be true at the rear, they almost always taper off a bit, so I first check for burrs around the screw holes and clean it up, then torque the 2 front screws (15 INCH LBS)and then check the rear gap with feeler gauges to see how far off it is. You can shim or bed that gap area, so the base will sit perfectly 'neutral' without tension on the receiver. If not bedding the rear of the base, I also put a thin veneer of locktite on the bottom of the base right before install to act as a moisture sealant. Everyone has 'their' way of doing things, so this is just 'one' way, not the 'only' way to do it. If you are coming to SHOT give me a holler so we can meet up. Mark

 

[kentactic]

Re: Reaming seekins rings?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PittsDriver</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kentactic</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> yeah i have the torque wrench just need to get the torx bits. </div></div>

Wrenching on the car, the torque is in pound/feet. I know it's obvious but here's the friendly reminder, the torque wrench you want to use needs to be calibrated for pound/inches.

Happy motoring......

RT </div></div>

yep got me an inch-lb wrench aswell.

 

[kentactic]

Re: Reaming seekins rings?

well i mounted the base. and if anyones wondering the seekins base bolts take a T-15 torx bit. its not specified on the website. once i get the scope in ill mount that bad boy and head to the range. also no thread locker is recommended for the seekins rings on any of the bolts.

 

[Driftwood]

Re: Reaming seekins rings?

Glen is a stand up guy and makes a truly amazing product. When I called him to order them, I asked a few questions about installing his rings. He told me not to lap them. I have used his rings on several scopes that have been mounted and remounted. I haven't had any hint of a ring mark on my scopes. I am careful not to over torque the screws, but I have never lapped the rings. If you have any questions about his rings or any other of his products I would suggest you call him. His customer service is excellent.

 

[Spuhr]

Re: Reaming seekins rings?

Doesent matter how well a set of rings are made if the action is crocked and the rail not straight. Then it's in my opinions better to ream or lap the rings than to mount the scope under great tension.
Best is ofcourse to use good rings and straight bases that are stratight even after they are mounted on the gun.
Unfortunatly is there quite a number of actions that are everything else than stratight.

So if Seekings says its not ok to lap his rings, then I would make really sure that the rail is mounted straight and under no tension. That will often require either bedding or fitting.

Håkan

 

[Glen Seekins]

Re: Reaming seekins rings?

Guys 99% of the time you are good to go. However just as Spuhr said above, if your base is twisted then so will everything you have mounted to it.

 

[kentactic]

Re: Reaming seekins rings?

i mounted my rail and torque the front to 15 in-lbs and there was no gap at all..did the same to the rear and the front had no gap at all. REM700

also... heres another question ive had for a while... how do you align the scope and the natural POI of the barrel. just because your perfectly true to the barrel dosent mean the scope will be perfectly aligned with POI. and then once you zero it at any other range it will be left or right what ever amount depending on the severitiy of the angle. the way i see it it is impossible to get a scope true to natural POI without shooting it and some how drilling the action and setting the scope then.

or is the scope not like that. can you not look at it as a centerline thats turning to the POI? rather just a single object that moves and then is lined up from then on.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: Reaming seekins rings?

What you are looking for is "bore sighting"

I do it at 50 yards generally.

1. Remove the bolt.
2. Bag the Rifle so it's supported and doesn't flop around.
3. Sight through the barrel of the rifle and center your target in the bore.
4. Without bumping the rifle adjust the turrets on the scope to center the reticle on the target.
5. Replace the bolt and fire.

If I am on a sheet of printer paper at 50 I don't mess with anything. I just run the target out to 100 and fine tune it. If you know how to do the math with a Mil or MOA reticle, it should take you less than five rounds to zero a scope. Just measure the distance of the point of impact from the point of aim dial it in and drive on. Once you get within 1-.5" of your point of aim, stop dicking with it and shoot your drills, etc. As you continue with your shooting you will be able to determine if you need to tweak the zero. I have watched guys go though a box of ammo chasing a zero because they wanted it "perfect".

 

[Spuhr]

Re: Reaming seekins rings?

Kentactic

The interesting thing is if you have zero play betwen the rail and the action before you apply the torque, not after.
A rail is not more sturdy than it easaly can get bent if the action is crocked.

Håkan

 

[kentactic]

Re: Reaming seekins rings?

i see... well that wouldnt seem like a very good way to tell wether or not you have a crooked action. applying more pressure to the rear bolt will almost deffinatly make the base pop up. thats why you torque in tntervals... little here litle there... if you could torque only one screw down some what by itself and the base didnt pop up then it would be fine to just torque each bolt all the way down as you go rather then in intervals.

and you will get a different result depending on how much you torque the futher in bolt. i can correct this gap just by turning down the inside bolt first and youll never see it..... if you torque them down to the specs and theres no gap then you know the rail wont be bending across the gap to the other end in order to meet the action on the other side.

and even if you only torqued the bad side down a little and the other end popped up, bedding the side popped up wont solve your problem the crooked action is on the other side so youd have to bed both sides. but i thought we were trying to eliminate the twist/bend over the gap not between the two bolts on either end.

i can put more pressure on the front bolt of my action and the barrel will hit the stock but that dosent mean the stocks made crooked it means i put more pressure on one bolt then the other. unless your some how messuring the torque your applying to your bases in these test you might be bedding the base and then once you crank it down to the specs its more crooked then ever before.

but even measuring the torque but not the final spec torque wiont be right because the metal will bend more to the action as you get tighter and your bedding job is wrong... the only true way to do it as i can see is bed the entire base at once with no torque applied on anything. but then you might end up with a base thats really crooked to the action..