Gunsmithing Rebarrel without truing?

[jackinfl]

Guys,
I had a conversation and it was proposed that most of the accuracy comes from the barrel anyway, so it does not make sense to spend the money on truing the action.

I have my opinion, based on speaking to a couple gunsmiths on here, which is to true the action before re-barrelling.

Has anyone tried this and what are your opinions on this?

Talking about a Remington 700 with a factory barrel...

Jack

 

[GasLight]

Re: Rebarrel without truing?

How much do you figure you will save by NOT truing?

Compare the costs, my belief is that it is a minor part of the equation, so why NOT true?

 

[LRI]

Re: Rebarrel without truing?

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2735129#Post2735129

 

[jackinfl]

Re: Rebarrel without truing?

Mr. Dixon,
I see your point and my opinion is built upon reading most of your stuff and the other gunsmith's on here. I think it would be silly to put a new barrel in a Factory cut receiver.

However, the person I spoke to had a difference in opinion.

To me it's like putting on clean underwear but not showering.

But, I wonder if anyone has tried it, and what were their results.

I have had conversations with GAP gunsmiths and they would not even consider putting on a new barrel on an untrued action. I agree 100% with that standpoint. not because I know any better, but because I believe what they (and you, and WIlliam Roscoe and Mark Gordon) say.

Thanks,
Jack

 

[Brutas]

Re: Rebarrel without truing?

It depends on how true it was machined at Remington and how much it was warped during heat treating. So of them are marginal, some are just ugly. Without truing the receiver you just don't know. That is not a good place to start when building an accurate rifle.

On a new build from scratch, I would recommend leaving the factory actions out of the equation and start with a premium aftermarket action. By the time you buy a receiver and pay to get it trued, you are almost at the price of a premium action. It is a shot out rifle that is a different story.

 

[LRI]

Re: Rebarrel without truing?

Equate it to this, an analogy I use often.

Years ago I was a machinist in the auto racing game. NHRA Competition Eliminator, which is essentially Pro Stock with a small block engine. Cars are "sportsman classed" which is based on CID/weight instead of a pro class where everything is more clearly defined as far as do's/dont's.

Say were going pro stock racing. In today's world were going to need to build somewhere around 1350hp in order to even have a chance at being competitive. Assuming everything else about the car is right, this is what it takes. (meaning, bedding, triggers, stocks, optics, barrels, chambers, etc)

Suppose you really burn some midnight oil and figure out that putting a radius on all the oil line fittings frees up another 10hp due to the 4 stage dry sump pump not working so hard. Suppose you discover that a 14-1/2* valve pocket angle flows better than a 15* or (yuk!) 21* degrees.

Now your engine makes a clean 1375hp on the dyno (a bit of an embellishment, but this is an analogy and I'm the author so tough

)

Now its only 25 little piss ant HP and you prolly spent close to 20 grand getting all that figured out by the time your done. The point is in a pro class the playing field is pretty even as the big boys are all in the same general vicinity of one another. The scrubs down 100+hp usually don't even make the qualifying round.

Much is the same in blueprinting a receiver. By itself polished/radiused oil fittings don't do much. It's the entire ensemble working together in concert. When a gun is capable of shooting a solid 1/2 minute and its not blueprinted, expect it to possibly cut that shot plot by a small, but <span style="font-style: italic">definite</span> margin. Does it really matter to a guy who's just plinking on the weekends at beer cans? Probably not. To a serious marksman its the difference between a ringer 9 or a scratch 10 when a condition changes that he may not immediately notice.

It's all a matter of the level we play at. If for no other reason it offers an assurance. I like to know-reeeaaaalllly know when I blow a shot. I don't want to doubt my equipment. If a group suddenly gets big I want to know its cause the barrel let go, not because I suspect a lug not touching, a warped recoil lug, handle touching the stock, crap bedding job, etc.

Done well a blueprinting job offers the added assurance that the equipment is working as advertised and <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">that</span></span> boosts the shooter's confidence. The best gun in the world is worthless if the operator doesn't trust it.

Hope this helped.

C.

 

[LRI]

Re: Rebarrel without truing?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jackinfl</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mr. Dixon,
I see your point and my opinion is built upon reading most of your stuff and the other gunsmith's on here. I think it would be silly to put a new barrel in a Factory cut receiver.

However, the person I spoke to had a difference in opinion.

To me it's like putting on clean underwear but not showering.

But, I wonder if anyone has tried it, and what were their results.

I have had conversations with GAP gunsmiths and they would not even consider putting on a new barrel on an untrued action. I agree 100% with that standpoint. not because I know any better, but because I believe what they (and you, and WIlliam Roscoe and Mark Gordon) say.

Thanks,
Jack </div></div>


To answer this in a more direct fashion I'd propose an experiment. blueprint an action and INTENTIONALLY screw it up. Cut the ring crooked, the threads all goofy, and make sure one lug is further back than the other.

then go shoot it.

Now tear into it again and make everything the way is should be. Then go shoot it again.

Be interesting to see the results of such a crackpot idea. Who knows, maybe were all full of chit and just sucking you guys dry of your hard earned dollars.

I'd venture to say there would be a clear cut difference, just how much I'm not sure.

 

[wnroscoe]

Re: Rebarrel without truing?

Jack,

Numerous years ago, prior to me building rifles, I had a 7mmRM barreled by Garland Gilbreth in Texas. I purchased the rifle originally some 29 years ago, new in the box. When I shot that barrel out Doug Shilen recommended Garland to me as a gunsmith so I gave him a try. The rifle shot great and at the time, was all I could have asked for. When the barrel was installed, the receiver was left un-trued, the bolt face wasn’t even cut. It was straight up in it's factory condition.

Today, as with others, I wont even consider chambering a barrel for a factory receiver that hasn’t been trued. I've seen way too much taper in the threads, threads that weren’t concentric, a ton of chatter and even off center and not perpendicular to the receivers bolt raceway center line.

Receiver faces look to be cut off with a saw blade and some lugs still have the machining / manufacturing marks left on/in them and some even have what looks like slight galling to them. I'm talking about new, un-fired rifles that are purchased for just the receiver.

At the end of the day your going to have $2,500 to $3,000 tied up in your rifle w/o optics, I wouldn’t be too concerned with trying to save $200 to $300 in truing cost..............go ahead and splurge, you only go around once or twice or three times or how ever many rifles you end up with

 

[x ring accuracy]

Re: Rebarrel without truing?

Just do it

 

[Mike Casselton]

Re: Rebarrel without truing?

I've got a 6BR barrel that is installed on an untrued Remington action. That rifle shoots just as well as anothe 6BR that got the complete truing job done to it.

Here's the kicker.

The first rifle mentioned uses a rechambered 6PPC barrel that was originally smithed by one of the best Benchrest shooters in the world. He took the time to properly "index and center" the bore prior to chambering and fitting the barrel. He sold the barrel to me for $50.00 because it did not meet his Benchrest standards. According to him the barrel never shot a group over 3/8". My experience with it has been the same.

The second gun got the complete action truing. According to the smith that did the job, it needed the work. The smith is also a very well known Benchrest gunsmith and he knows his way around a Remington action. This gun has also never shot a group over 3/8".

If I shoot the guns side-by-side, I am hard pressed to tell which group is from what gun.

Am I saying that action truing is unnecessary? HELL NO!!! I don't believe it for a minute. What I believe is that the first rifle mentioned has an unusually straight action. That coupled with a smith that knows how to PROPERLY chamber a barrel equated to great luck.

The second gun needed work and got it, so it shoots great too.

If you are dealing with a smith that feels like truing an action is unnecessary, I would also question his chambering method and look for another smith.

Don't waste the potential of a good barrel on a mediocre gunsmith...

 

[desertrat1979]

Re: Rebarrel without truing?

It takes the same amount of work to true the action as it does to just replace the barrel. If you choose to do it later now you gotta pull the barrel off again. May as well just get it all done at once, and pay the extra 80-100 bux.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Rebarrel without truing?

...And then there's the situation where the original factory action is pretty danged true to begin with.

When we began SH Savage .260 F Class project back in 2002, we started with a trio of Savage 10FP actions. One of our number was/is a precision metalcrafter, and he measured and guaged our actions. His assessments indicated that between the factory's surprisingly tight tolerances and the Savage bolt head design, the rifles were not really going to benefit greatly from truing. Then, being who he is, he went ahead and trued them anyway.

I'm glad he did; not that any discernable differences in performance resulted. If there was one, and there could have been, it was completely masked by my own ineptitude. The difference, for me, was in the degree of confidence it lent my approach to shooting mine. It was one fewer of the significant concerns that gnaw at the back of one's mind as one tries to dope the wind, and no longer needs to be additionally concerned about a rifle-induced flyer.

I think it also provides additional bang-for-buck in the switch barrel rifle. The additional barrels permit the effect of owning more rifles. If that basic rifle is well configured, then all the virtual additional rifles the other chambered barrels provide are equally well configured. IMHO, switch barreling justifies the lavishing of additional care on the one-and-only foundation to which these barrels are being lent.

IMHO; if you're doing a switch barrel, it's a no brainer about truing; and if you're not doing a switch barrel, why aren't you doing a switch barrel?. In my case, I have an answer; I'm still saving my shekels for the additional barrels.

Greg

 

[Bugholes]

Re: Rebarrel without truing?

Jack-
I dont require a 1350HP race engine to get to work, the pickup truck does just fine. Some boats I run cruise at 20 knots, some cruise at 35 knots, they both take me to the same fishing spots. With that being said, what are your performance requirements?

A good barrel properly installed with no action truing often shoots 1/2" at 100 yards.

it all depends on what kind of accuracy you require. Dont expect to be in the ones and twos without action work