Just put a sps varmint .308 in a Hs precision stock. There was alot of slop in recoil lug slot back in forth. I compared to my other rifles just tends to be a bit more. It tightened down well. Will this cause a problem? What can I do to fix it besides putting oversize recoil lug on?
Gunsmithing Recoil lug problem?
- Thread starter keith jones
- Start date
Re: Recoil lug problem?
Pull the barreled action to the rear when tightening the screws down.
This may help to achieve positive contact with the rear of the lug.
Bedding the lug would be my choice. Or bedding the entire thing.
Said this before... nothing rivals a good bedding job as far as concerns like this go. Good bedding will end all worries about things like this.
Pull the barreled action to the rear when tightening the screws down.
This may help to achieve positive contact with the rear of the lug.
Bedding the lug would be my choice. Or bedding the entire thing.
Said this before... nothing rivals a good bedding job as far as concerns like this go. Good bedding will end all worries about things like this.
Re: Recoil lug problem?
You dont need any contact in the front of the lug, some play is normal, however, you do need the rear of the recoil lug making full contact with the stock.
Easiest solution is to bed it, you can bed just around the lug area or go all out.
Kirk R
You dont need any contact in the front of the lug, some play is normal, however, you do need the rear of the recoil lug making full contact with the stock.
Easiest solution is to bed it, you can bed just around the lug area or go all out.
Kirk R
Re: Recoil lug problem?
start the screws, stand the rifle vertical with the weight on the butt pad, snug the front screw, snug the rear screw, torque the front screw then torque the rear screw.
it's not a problem.
start the screws, stand the rifle vertical with the weight on the butt pad, snug the front screw, snug the rear screw, torque the front screw then torque the rear screw.
it's not a problem.
Re: Recoil lug problem?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Shoot it. If it puts on a good show its not broke.
C.
</div></div> Very good advice Mr.Dixon.
like we say in the car business, "if its not broke,don't fix it". LOL
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Shoot it. If it puts on a good show its not broke.
C.
</div></div> Very good advice Mr.Dixon.
like we say in the car business, "if its not broke,don't fix it". LOL
Re: Recoil lug problem?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Shoot it. If it puts on a good show its not broke.
C.
</div></div>
+1 Never seek out problems, judge performance instead.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Shoot it. If it puts on a good show its not broke.
C.
</div></div>
+1 Never seek out problems, judge performance instead.
Re: Recoil lug problem?
Just cause a rifle shoots good one outing doesn't mean it will every time.
Unbedded rifles can shift and move around. Ive seen it matter and Ive seen it cause POI shift and groups to open up after a few hundred rounds.
I shot an unbedded rifle in an McMA5 for 18 months. It would shoot half inch for about 200 rounds then Id have to pull it from the stock, and re-position it correctly, pulled to the rear, and tighten the screws back to 50lbs.
Then it would go back to half MOA for about another 200 rounds.
Once I bedded this same rifle, no more shifts... ever.. period.
So I don't believe you can take an unbedded rifle out, shoot one days worth of groups, and say for sure that the rifle will continue to do what it did that day every day after.
Personally,
Id bed the lug front and back, leaving the sides and bottom relieved. This way your lug will always have 100% contact with the rear surface. No more worrying about it.
Just cause a rifle shoots good one outing doesn't mean it will every time.
Unbedded rifles can shift and move around. Ive seen it matter and Ive seen it cause POI shift and groups to open up after a few hundred rounds.
I shot an unbedded rifle in an McMA5 for 18 months. It would shoot half inch for about 200 rounds then Id have to pull it from the stock, and re-position it correctly, pulled to the rear, and tighten the screws back to 50lbs.
Then it would go back to half MOA for about another 200 rounds.
Once I bedded this same rifle, no more shifts... ever.. period.
So I don't believe you can take an unbedded rifle out, shoot one days worth of groups, and say for sure that the rifle will continue to do what it did that day every day after.
Personally,
Id bed the lug front and back, leaving the sides and bottom relieved. This way your lug will always have 100% contact with the rear surface. No more worrying about it.
Re: Recoil lug problem?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keith at PCR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just cause a rifle shoots good one outing doesn't mean it will every time.
Unbedded rifles can shift and move around. Ive seen it matter and Ive seen it cause POI shift and groups to open up after a few hundred rounds.
I shot an unbedded rifle in an McMA5 for 18 months. It would shoot half inch for about 200 rounds then Id have to pull it from the stock, and re-position it correctly, pulled to the rear, and tighten the screws back to 50lbs.
Then it would go back to half MOA for about another 200 rounds.
Once I bedded this same rifle, no more shifts... ever.. period.
So I don't believe you can take an unbedded rifle out, shoot one days worth of groups, and say for sure that the rifle will continue to do what it did that day every day after.
Personally,
Id bed the lug front and back, leaving the sides and bottom relieved. This way your lug will always have 100% contact with the rear surface. No more worrying about it. </div></div>
did your mcm stock have an aluminum bedding block like the op's?
care to guess how many times i've adjusted my zero in the 2900 rounds i have through my aics .284?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keith at PCR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just cause a rifle shoots good one outing doesn't mean it will every time.
Unbedded rifles can shift and move around. Ive seen it matter and Ive seen it cause POI shift and groups to open up after a few hundred rounds.
I shot an unbedded rifle in an McMA5 for 18 months. It would shoot half inch for about 200 rounds then Id have to pull it from the stock, and re-position it correctly, pulled to the rear, and tighten the screws back to 50lbs.
Then it would go back to half MOA for about another 200 rounds.
Once I bedded this same rifle, no more shifts... ever.. period.
So I don't believe you can take an unbedded rifle out, shoot one days worth of groups, and say for sure that the rifle will continue to do what it did that day every day after.
Personally,
Id bed the lug front and back, leaving the sides and bottom relieved. This way your lug will always have 100% contact with the rear surface. No more worrying about it. </div></div>
did your mcm stock have an aluminum bedding block like the op's?
care to guess how many times i've adjusted my zero in the 2900 rounds i have through my aics .284?
Re: Recoil lug problem?
No it did not.
And no, I don't care to guess.
Do that stress test sometime with a tight fitting bar in your receiver... Tighten your receiver down to 60lbs in your AICS and try to remove or insert that tight bar.
OP, Bedding your lug area wont hurt man. If its done properly it wont hurt I mean.
No it did not.
And no, I don't care to guess.
Do that stress test sometime with a tight fitting bar in your receiver... Tighten your receiver down to 60lbs in your AICS and try to remove or insert that tight bar.
OP, Bedding your lug area wont hurt man. If its done properly it wont hurt I mean.
Re: Recoil lug problem?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keith at PCR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Do that stress test sometime with a tight fitting bar in your receiver... Tighten your receiver down to 60lbs in your AICS and try to remove or insert that tight bar.
</div></div>
why? the bolt cycles just fine. the bolt shows good even wear on the lugs. the rifle shoots damn good. the rifle has held it's zero for as long as the scope has been on it. i can't remember the exact round count when i swapped the scope but it was early on in it's 2900 round life.
i hate to be the one to break it to you but the "stress test" is not the end-all be-all indication of how a rifle will shoot. your rifle didn't hold zero because it was not bedded at all. there was lots of movement allowed between the receiver and stock. an aluminum vee block has good rigid contact and doesn't move when torqued down.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keith at PCR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Do that stress test sometime with a tight fitting bar in your receiver... Tighten your receiver down to 60lbs in your AICS and try to remove or insert that tight bar.
</div></div>
why? the bolt cycles just fine. the bolt shows good even wear on the lugs. the rifle shoots damn good. the rifle has held it's zero for as long as the scope has been on it. i can't remember the exact round count when i swapped the scope but it was early on in it's 2900 round life.
i hate to be the one to break it to you but the "stress test" is not the end-all be-all indication of how a rifle will shoot. your rifle didn't hold zero because it was not bedded at all. there was lots of movement allowed between the receiver and stock. an aluminum vee block has good rigid contact and doesn't move when torqued down.
Re: Recoil lug problem?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
1)i hate to be the one to break it to you but the "stress test" is not the end-all be-all indication of how a rifle will shoot.
2)your rifle didn't hold zero because it was not bedded at all. <span style="font-weight: bold">there was lots of movement allowed between the receiver and chassis</span>. an aluminum vee block has good rigid contact and doesn't move when torqued down. </div></div>
1) Thats not breaking news to me. Ive always been one to say most accuracy comes from the barrel, barrel work, and many things other than the receiver. I understand a bent action <span style="font-style: italic">can</span> shoot just fine.
2) I assume you mean my stock not chassis.. And naw there wasn't much movement. It was a better fit than any Vee block with more lug contact and side wall contact than your AICS. Just not as rigid. The rigidity must be the difference that matters. The fiberglass must just compress/move after a while.
Everything I build now gets bedded.
Like I already said, OP, bedding your lug area can only help.
Putting an M700 into an HS stock, is putting two cheaply made parts together that will not mate up well at all. Bedding solves this.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
1)i hate to be the one to break it to you but the "stress test" is not the end-all be-all indication of how a rifle will shoot.
2)your rifle didn't hold zero because it was not bedded at all. <span style="font-weight: bold">there was lots of movement allowed between the receiver and chassis</span>. an aluminum vee block has good rigid contact and doesn't move when torqued down. </div></div>
1) Thats not breaking news to me. Ive always been one to say most accuracy comes from the barrel, barrel work, and many things other than the receiver. I understand a bent action <span style="font-style: italic">can</span> shoot just fine.
2) I assume you mean my stock not chassis.. And naw there wasn't much movement. It was a better fit than any Vee block with more lug contact and side wall contact than your AICS. Just not as rigid. The rigidity must be the difference that matters. The fiberglass must just compress/move after a while.
Everything I build now gets bedded.
Like I already said, OP, bedding your lug area can only help.
Putting an M700 into an HS stock, is putting two cheaply made parts together that will not mate up well at all. Bedding solves this.
Re: Recoil lug problem?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keith at PCR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
2) I assume you mean my stock not chassis.. And naw there wasn't much movement. It was a better fit than any Vee block with more lug contact and side wall contact than your AICS. Just not as rigid. The rigidity must be the difference that matters. The fiberglass must just compress/move after a while.
</div></div>
you are correct, i did mean to say "stock", not "chassis". i edited my post.
if your zero was wondering then there was movement. it may have looked like it but i guarantee it was not a "better" fit than a vee block.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keith at PCR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
2) I assume you mean my stock not chassis.. And naw there wasn't much movement. It was a better fit than any Vee block with more lug contact and side wall contact than your AICS. Just not as rigid. The rigidity must be the difference that matters. The fiberglass must just compress/move after a while.
</div></div>
you are correct, i did mean to say "stock", not "chassis". i edited my post.
if your zero was wondering then there was movement. it may have looked like it but i guarantee it was not a "better" fit than a vee block.
Re: Recoil lug problem?
I could see where the contact was after about 1 year of shooting it. Very defined.
I also have seen and know where the contact is between an AICS and a 700 action.
The Mcmillan had better contact both behind the lug, and along the actions sides and especially under the tang and ring.
The difference in contact area isn't what matters I don't think.
The AICS, while having less contact, seems to hold accuracy longer because like you said it's more rigid, so once you torque the action down tight, its not going anywhere.
Like I said before Ive seen a rifle shoot half inch with zero lug contact in an AICS. It was just bolted down tight.
I understand why you stick up for chassis systems(V blocks) so much. I really do. They shoot well even with stress in the action, no lug contact, etc.
But my suggesting that someone bed their lug area <span style="font-weight: bold">is</span> sound advice.
And those HS stocks are not what the AICS's are. HS's V-blocks look like theyre being made in a middle school shop class.
I could see where the contact was after about 1 year of shooting it. Very defined.
I also have seen and know where the contact is between an AICS and a 700 action.
The Mcmillan had better contact both behind the lug, and along the actions sides and especially under the tang and ring.
The difference in contact area isn't what matters I don't think.
The AICS, while having less contact, seems to hold accuracy longer because like you said it's more rigid, so once you torque the action down tight, its not going anywhere.
Like I said before Ive seen a rifle shoot half inch with zero lug contact in an AICS. It was just bolted down tight.
I understand why you stick up for chassis systems(V blocks) so much. I really do. They shoot well even with stress in the action, no lug contact, etc.
But my suggesting that someone bed their lug area <span style="font-weight: bold">is</span> sound advice.
And those HS stocks are not what the AICS's are. HS's V-blocks look like theyre being made in a middle school shop class.
Re: Recoil lug problem?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keith at PCR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The Mcmillan had better contact both behind the lug, and along the actions sides and especially under the tang and ring.
The difference in contact area isn't what matters I don't think.
The AICS, while having less contact, seems to hold accuracy longer because like you said it's more rigid, so once you torque the action down tight, its not going anywhere.</div></div>
maybe it's not how much contact area but where that contact area is
a vee block is a pretty good way to center up a cylinder. add a little bit of clamping force and you have a pretty rigid setup.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keith at PCR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The Mcmillan had better contact both behind the lug, and along the actions sides and especially under the tang and ring.
The difference in contact area isn't what matters I don't think.
The AICS, while having less contact, seems to hold accuracy longer because like you said it's more rigid, so once you torque the action down tight, its not going anywhere.</div></div>
maybe it's not how much contact area but where that contact area is
a vee block is a pretty good way to center up a cylinder. add a little bit of clamping force and you have a pretty rigid setup.
Re: Recoil lug problem?
Ya and the McM had good contact in the important areas.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">a vee block is a pretty good way to center up a cylinder. add a little bit of clamping force and you have a pretty rigid setup.
</div></div>
I agree with that.
Remington receivers aren't always round cylinders though.
Not saying AICS's aren't accurate without bedding.
We're trying to get an AICS for a slave for testing rifles.
Ya and the McM had good contact in the important areas.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">a vee block is a pretty good way to center up a cylinder. add a little bit of clamping force and you have a pretty rigid setup.
</div></div>
I agree with that.
Remington receivers aren't always round cylinders though.
Not saying AICS's aren't accurate without bedding.
We're trying to get an AICS for a slave for testing rifles.
Re: Recoil lug problem?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keith at PCR</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Ya and the McM had good contact in the important areas.</div></div>
and what is the important areas in your opinion? there is little support of a horizontal cylinder near the bottom. somewhere between the bottom and spring line is going to offer far more resistance to movement.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keith at PCR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I agree with that.
Remington receivers aren't always round cylinders though.
</div></div>
they are plenty round enough to center in a vee block. if you took a stripped receiver and set it into a vee block under it's own weight, are you saying it won't make contact on the left/right front ring and the left/right of the tang area?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keith at PCR</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Ya and the McM had good contact in the important areas.</div></div>
and what is the important areas in your opinion? there is little support of a horizontal cylinder near the bottom. somewhere between the bottom and spring line is going to offer far more resistance to movement.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keith at PCR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I agree with that.
Remington receivers aren't always round cylinders though.
</div></div>
they are plenty round enough to center in a vee block. if you took a stripped receiver and set it into a vee block under it's own weight, are you saying it won't make contact on the left/right front ring and the left/right of the tang area?
Re: Recoil lug problem?
I understand your point 300. You've really got a hard-on for aluminum Vs.
But it doesn't mean you should argue with me every time I suggest someone bed their rifle.
Bedding is a good thing. And with the support available here from people like William and a couple others, bedding isNOT an undoable DIY project.
I understand your point 300. You've really got a hard-on for aluminum Vs.
But it doesn't mean you should argue with me every time I suggest someone bed their rifle.
Bedding is a good thing. And with the support available here from people like William and a couple others, bedding isNOT an undoable DIY project.
Re: Recoil lug problem?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keith at PCR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I understand your point 300. You've really got a hard-on for aluminum Vs.
But it doesn't mean you should argue with me every time I suggest someone bed their rifle.
Bedding is a good thing. And with the support available here from people like William and a couple others, bedding isNOT an undoable DIY project. </div></div>
Keith
I think you are hung up on bedding. Have you tested an action install in an AICS stock and then bedded and tested it again? It was done and no improvement of groups was seen. Is Critter Capper back?
Alan
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keith at PCR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I understand your point 300. You've really got a hard-on for aluminum Vs.
But it doesn't mean you should argue with me every time I suggest someone bed their rifle.
Bedding is a good thing. And with the support available here from people like William and a couple others, bedding isNOT an undoable DIY project. </div></div>
Keith
I think you are hung up on bedding. Have you tested an action install in an AICS stock and then bedded and tested it again? It was done and no improvement of groups was seen. Is Critter Capper back?
Alan
Re: Recoil lug problem?
Shooting a rifle half MOA unbedded, then shooting it again half MOA bedded, shows nothing.
Thats one rifle, one time. See if the unbedded one holds that accuracy and POI for 3000 rounds.
The OP is asking about an HS stock. Not an AICS
And ya I suggest just about every bolt rifle be bedded.
Shooting a rifle half MOA unbedded, then shooting it again half MOA bedded, shows nothing.
Thats one rifle, one time. See if the unbedded one holds that accuracy and POI for 3000 rounds.
The OP is asking about an HS stock. Not an AICS
And ya I suggest just about every bolt rifle be bedded.
Re: Recoil lug problem?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keith at PCR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Shooting a rifle half MOA unbedded, then shooting it again half MOA bedded, shows nothing.
Thats one rifle, one time. See if the unbedded one holds that accuracy and POI for 3000 rounds.
The OP is asking about an HS stock. Not an AICS
And ya I suggest just about every bolt rifle be bedded.
</div></div>
Keith
This was not one rifle one group, it was the testing done on the MK 13 Mod 5 300 Win Mag’s. Most of the Sniper weapons used by US SOCOM and the US Army are in some type of stock which has no bedding. I still try to learn new things all the time, and I think after a few years’ experience you will find there are many ways to do the same thing. My background comes from my years of development, testing, and repair of weapons at NSWC Crane. When I do comment on something it comes from testing and lessons learned while I was there. Tests are conducted using test plans, data collected and reports developed from the data.
Alan
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keith at PCR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Shooting a rifle half MOA unbedded, then shooting it again half MOA bedded, shows nothing.
Thats one rifle, one time. See if the unbedded one holds that accuracy and POI for 3000 rounds.
The OP is asking about an HS stock. Not an AICS
And ya I suggest just about every bolt rifle be bedded.
</div></div>
Keith
This was not one rifle one group, it was the testing done on the MK 13 Mod 5 300 Win Mag’s. Most of the Sniper weapons used by US SOCOM and the US Army are in some type of stock which has no bedding. I still try to learn new things all the time, and I think after a few years’ experience you will find there are many ways to do the same thing. My background comes from my years of development, testing, and repair of weapons at NSWC Crane. When I do comment on something it comes from testing and lessons learned while I was there. Tests are conducted using test plans, data collected and reports developed from the data.
Alan
Re: Recoil lug problem?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AJ Brown</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Have you tested an action install in an AICS stock and then bedded and tested it again? </div></div>
Sorry I thought you were asking me to do a test with <span style="text-decoration: underline">one</span> rifle.
Ive said many times unbedded rifles in aluminum V blocks can/will/do shoot great.
I just prefer to bed em.
The OP is concerned with his lug area being huge around his tiny lug. If he were to correctly bed it, which I think he can do, it would alleviate his concerns and would only help the rifle.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AJ Brown</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Have you tested an action install in an AICS stock and then bedded and tested it again? </div></div>
Sorry I thought you were asking me to do a test with <span style="text-decoration: underline">one</span> rifle.
Ive said many times unbedded rifles in aluminum V blocks can/will/do shoot great.
I just prefer to bed em.
The OP is concerned with his lug area being huge around his tiny lug. If he were to correctly bed it, which I think he can do, it would alleviate his concerns and would only help the rifle.
Re: Recoil lug problem?
Sorry I did not mean to cause an argument between to good gunsmiths. I still woul like to know the best fix without causing any more problems between people. I am sorry for that I would just like to get the best out of my rifle.
Sorry I did not mean to cause an argument between to good gunsmiths. I still woul like to know the best fix without causing any more problems between people. I am sorry for that I would just like to get the best out of my rifle.
Re: Recoil lug problem?
I love a good discussion about why stocks with a bedding block need bedded and why they don't.
One guy will tell his story about how his rifle shot and how it got better when it was bedded into the block.
Somebody else talks about how great their rifle shoots just torqued into the metal block and their experience that it would be no better bedded.
Ain't it great how they're both right.
That's why the blocks and bedding were invented. Some actions are straight enough in the right places to fit fine in the metal blocks and others are not and will show improvement when bedded. When your experiences runs into the dozens of rifle and stock combinations you'll find both types.
If it works without being fixed, it ain't broke. Shoot it. A couple of thousand rounds will make the best improvement.
If it doesn't shoot better than you can with your other rifles, bed it. Then try to wear out the barrel.
A discussion based on the experience of only a couple of rifles will render all the results of wearing your lucky socks.
I love a good discussion about why stocks with a bedding block need bedded and why they don't.
One guy will tell his story about how his rifle shot and how it got better when it was bedded into the block.
Somebody else talks about how great their rifle shoots just torqued into the metal block and their experience that it would be no better bedded.
Ain't it great how they're both right.
That's why the blocks and bedding were invented. Some actions are straight enough in the right places to fit fine in the metal blocks and others are not and will show improvement when bedded. When your experiences runs into the dozens of rifle and stock combinations you'll find both types.
If it works without being fixed, it ain't broke. Shoot it. A couple of thousand rounds will make the best improvement.
If it doesn't shoot better than you can with your other rifles, bed it. Then try to wear out the barrel.
A discussion based on the experience of only a couple of rifles will render all the results of wearing your lucky socks.
Re: Recoil lug problem?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keith at PCR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I understand your point 300. You've really got a hard-on for aluminum Vs.
But it doesn't mean you should argue with me every time I suggest someone bed their rifle.
Bedding is a good thing. And with the support available here from people like William and a couple others, bedding isNOT an undoable DIY project. </div></div>
the reason i argue with you on it is because you blindly suggest someone bed their vee block without any putting any thought into it. you keep questioning if a vee block chassis can hold zero for 3k rounds and i have told you that i have seen it. my rifle is at 2900 rounds without having to change the zero other than a scope swap early in the rifle's life. i have another one that had 1500+ rounds without a zero shift before i swapped the scope on that. there are enough guys shooting unbedded vee block stocks/chassis around here competitively that i know they work, and work good. i have yet to see a rifle that wasn't competitive due to an unbedded vee block. can you say that you have seen one that wasn't competitive?
but to be fair, i haven't bedded one to see if there was an improvement or not. personally, i don't see the need for an improvement at the cost of wrecking the purpose of a vee block chassis in the first place. if you think someone is going to win or loose a tactical match or miss a critical real life shot because of an bedded or unbedded chassis, you need to open your eyes.
to the op, if the recoil lug is making good contact with the rear of the recess AND the action screws aren't binding in the stock holes/pillars, you are good to go as is. i wouldn't waste my time with putting any epoxy between the lug and aluminum.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keith at PCR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I understand your point 300. You've really got a hard-on for aluminum Vs.
But it doesn't mean you should argue with me every time I suggest someone bed their rifle.
Bedding is a good thing. And with the support available here from people like William and a couple others, bedding isNOT an undoable DIY project. </div></div>
the reason i argue with you on it is because you blindly suggest someone bed their vee block without any putting any thought into it. you keep questioning if a vee block chassis can hold zero for 3k rounds and i have told you that i have seen it. my rifle is at 2900 rounds without having to change the zero other than a scope swap early in the rifle's life. i have another one that had 1500+ rounds without a zero shift before i swapped the scope on that. there are enough guys shooting unbedded vee block stocks/chassis around here competitively that i know they work, and work good. i have yet to see a rifle that wasn't competitive due to an unbedded vee block. can you say that you have seen one that wasn't competitive?
but to be fair, i haven't bedded one to see if there was an improvement or not. personally, i don't see the need for an improvement at the cost of wrecking the purpose of a vee block chassis in the first place. if you think someone is going to win or loose a tactical match or miss a critical real life shot because of an bedded or unbedded chassis, you need to open your eyes.
to the op, if the recoil lug is making good contact with the rear of the recess AND the action screws aren't binding in the stock holes/pillars, you are good to go as is. i wouldn't waste my time with putting any epoxy between the lug and aluminum.
Re: Recoil lug problem?
I haven't chewed on Keith for awhile so what the hell.
(that's supposed to be humor)
Lets put some things into perspective. Perspective I have learned after stocking close to a thousand guns over 12 years.
The chassis system is here to stay. I personally don't care for it. Not because it doesn't work, but because I don't like the fit, finish, and final presentation. If a piston and cylinder in an engine can be machined in such a way to deliver a reliable seal over millions of heat cycles and under grueling load, then a block of aluminum can be machined to accept a piece of pipe with a barrel attached to the end of it.
There's too many rifles out there in gun land that shoot exceptionally well to argue it.
Bedding an action to a stock got its start shortly after synthetic resins became available. It's purpose was for wooden stocks. The attempt was to mitigate distortions as a result of wood being an organic material subject to dimensional changes as a result of temperature and humidity. Rifles could experience a change of impact as a result of weather.
Notice I said could.
If the inlet was well done and the stock was sealed up equally well then it's entirely possible it wouldn't.
From that perspective bedding is nothing more than a crutch.
It's a little different with a rimfire like the 22LR. Here you are dealing with a cartridge that is terribly inefficient. It's also traveling at roughly 1/3rd the speed of just about any modern centerfire cartridge. What you can take from that is it spends roughly 3x longer in the barrel. While its still a blink of an eye, there are forces at play that don't make themselves known to a centerfire cartridge simply because of how little time the bullet is in the barrel. When they do, you alter the load and tune it out of it. It's a rare day that a rifle shoots everything well. Covet those moments when it happens.
I've taken brand new out of the box Anschutz 54's, 1913's, 1911's, 1912's, 1710's, 1712's, 2013's, 2012's, as well as Walthars, Hammerli's, Bleikker's, Grunigs, SeeHubber's etc. . . (basically every ultra high end international/olympic smallbore rifle made) and bedded them.
In every instance they all responded well. One in particular was a rifle owned by Sheri Gallagher used in the 2002 Junior Olympic Tryouts. Bedding and barrel work took a 12mm 5x group and reduced it to 9.8mm. (that's extreme outside/outside arc, not center to center)
The point isn't to dazzle with numbers, it's to demonstrate that with certain types of rifles bedding has more influence than it does with others.
I've seen chassis built palma rifles lay side by side with well done pillar bedded guns. The elevation at 1000 yards is the same. The scores come down to X counts.
Palma is interesting because again you have a cartridge setup that does not lend itself well to 1000 yard shooting. Not when compared to the alternatives. A 155 grain bullet makes it by the slimmest of margins. Problems become amplified so it's important to build these types of rifles with a careful eye. No stone left unturned.
I suggest this:
Instead of bickering over whether a chassis setup is a cheap/ghetto solution, consider addressing it from a different perspective. If your thing is machined parts and convenient interchangeability then go for the chassis setup.
If you want the warmth/flavor of a rifle built in a more traditional/individual manner, then opt for a pillar bedded stock. Be it wood or synthetic.
There is certainly enough variety of work out there to where a gunsmith should never have to worry about whether or not to inventory a quantity of epoxy for bedding a stock.
Also know this. Schools teach basics. You've been in business now for how long? Save your opinions for later once you've build a couple thousand guns and shot 10's of thousands of rounds over the broad gamut of conditions.
Be one with a sponge.
Rant over.
Happy Tuesday.
C.
I haven't chewed on Keith for awhile so what the hell.
Lets put some things into perspective. Perspective I have learned after stocking close to a thousand guns over 12 years.
The chassis system is here to stay. I personally don't care for it. Not because it doesn't work, but because I don't like the fit, finish, and final presentation. If a piston and cylinder in an engine can be machined in such a way to deliver a reliable seal over millions of heat cycles and under grueling load, then a block of aluminum can be machined to accept a piece of pipe with a barrel attached to the end of it.
There's too many rifles out there in gun land that shoot exceptionally well to argue it.
Bedding an action to a stock got its start shortly after synthetic resins became available. It's purpose was for wooden stocks. The attempt was to mitigate distortions as a result of wood being an organic material subject to dimensional changes as a result of temperature and humidity. Rifles could experience a change of impact as a result of weather.
Notice I said could.
If the inlet was well done and the stock was sealed up equally well then it's entirely possible it wouldn't.
From that perspective bedding is nothing more than a crutch.
It's a little different with a rimfire like the 22LR. Here you are dealing with a cartridge that is terribly inefficient. It's also traveling at roughly 1/3rd the speed of just about any modern centerfire cartridge. What you can take from that is it spends roughly 3x longer in the barrel. While its still a blink of an eye, there are forces at play that don't make themselves known to a centerfire cartridge simply because of how little time the bullet is in the barrel. When they do, you alter the load and tune it out of it. It's a rare day that a rifle shoots everything well. Covet those moments when it happens.
I've taken brand new out of the box Anschutz 54's, 1913's, 1911's, 1912's, 1710's, 1712's, 2013's, 2012's, as well as Walthars, Hammerli's, Bleikker's, Grunigs, SeeHubber's etc. . . (basically every ultra high end international/olympic smallbore rifle made) and bedded them.
In every instance they all responded well. One in particular was a rifle owned by Sheri Gallagher used in the 2002 Junior Olympic Tryouts. Bedding and barrel work took a 12mm 5x group and reduced it to 9.8mm. (that's extreme outside/outside arc, not center to center)
The point isn't to dazzle with numbers, it's to demonstrate that with certain types of rifles bedding has more influence than it does with others.
I've seen chassis built palma rifles lay side by side with well done pillar bedded guns. The elevation at 1000 yards is the same. The scores come down to X counts.
Palma is interesting because again you have a cartridge setup that does not lend itself well to 1000 yard shooting. Not when compared to the alternatives. A 155 grain bullet makes it by the slimmest of margins. Problems become amplified so it's important to build these types of rifles with a careful eye. No stone left unturned.
I suggest this:
Instead of bickering over whether a chassis setup is a cheap/ghetto solution, consider addressing it from a different perspective. If your thing is machined parts and convenient interchangeability then go for the chassis setup.
If you want the warmth/flavor of a rifle built in a more traditional/individual manner, then opt for a pillar bedded stock. Be it wood or synthetic.
There is certainly enough variety of work out there to where a gunsmith should never have to worry about whether or not to inventory a quantity of epoxy for bedding a stock.
Also know this. Schools teach basics. You've been in business now for how long? Save your opinions for later once you've build a couple thousand guns and shot 10's of thousands of rounds over the broad gamut of conditions.
Be one with a sponge.
Rant over.
Happy Tuesday.
C.
Re: Recoil lug problem?
Amen. The voice of experience is heard far less than the voice of those trying to prove themselves, but with greater impact.
If you do great work, contribute sage advice, and above all else understand there is more than one way to skin a cat, then your threads don't turn into dick length tournaments. The OP would have been far better served in this thread had folks just offered advice and allowed him or her to try things until they found a suitable personal solution.
Don't become known as the smith who cannot control himself on the internet. It'll hurt your business. Ask me how I know.
Amen. The voice of experience is heard far less than the voice of those trying to prove themselves, but with greater impact.
If you do great work, contribute sage advice, and above all else understand there is more than one way to skin a cat, then your threads don't turn into dick length tournaments. The OP would have been far better served in this thread had folks just offered advice and allowed him or her to try things until they found a suitable personal solution.
Don't become known as the smith who cannot control himself on the internet. It'll hurt your business. Ask me how I know.
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