Movie Theater  Red Tails - due out 1/20

Dogtown

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Re: Red Tails - due out 1/20

There was a thread about this a couple months ago. Agreed, it looks good. It's the kind of film I've been wanting to work on for many years now that visual effects has evolved to the point where we can accurately recreate the scale of air combat over Europe in the latter half of WW2.
 

sandwarrior

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Re: Red Tails - due out 1/20

How much of a different story will this one tell vs. the first one? It thought the first one was pretty good. I'm hoping this one will be just as good.

For anyone interested we have hangared here at the South St. Paul airport the first P-51 of the Commemorative Air Force dedicated to the Tuskegee Airmen. It's a P-51C with the -7 engine. It's historically accurate in that when the Long Beach factory switched to building "D" models, -7 engines were shipped to both the Long Beach and Dallas plants. According to some (not all, obviously) the "C" with a -7 engine was the cats-ass. Faster and with as much horsepower as the "D" model, she could outdo most anything in the war...except of course a head to head race with a 262.
 

leadbullet

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Re: Red Tails - due out 1/20

can't wait to see it, those guys deserve more recognition for their great service.
 

sandwarrior

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Re: Red Tails - due out 1/20

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shootist2004</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think the C had the Allison engine and the D had the Rolls
Royce engine...</div></div>

No

The original P-51 was equipped with an Allison V-1710-39. (Britished called it the V-1710-F3R. A 1000 hp engine@ 12,000 ft. and 1,150 rated for takeoff (5 min)

The P-51A and A-36 Apache (ground attack/dive bomber) were equipped with the Allison V-1710-81 (British V-1710-F20R). Noteworthy as neither had a high altitude supercharger (what Mustangs are famous for, high altitude combat)

It was a P-51A that had the Rolls Royce (RR) Merlin 61 (1,290 hp) mated to it in 1942 by the British, and wowed the crowd!

That led to re-engineering and orders for the P-51B (built in Long Beach by North American) and the P-51C (built in Dallas by North American) to be ordered. They both started with a Packard built V-1650-3* ( RR Merlin 68, with high altitude superchargers) This double wowed the crowd. Because now, the aircraft was not only way faster, it had performance like you wouldn't believe above 25,000 ft. Which is where it's maximum speed rating is. The Packard (RR) V-1650-3 is rated at 1,520 HP, but was de-rated for the airframe to 1,400 hp. Over the course of airframes being upgraded through the war those engines were rated up to 1560 hp.

Then the P-51D came along with a new and improved high altitude engine (and most notably the bubble canopy) That was a Packard built V-1650-7 Rated at 1590 hp. Through progression this was increased to 1,750 by wars end.

Because, building P-51B and P-51C models didn't end simultaneously, (P-51C's ran longer) and a surplus of V-1650-7 engines had been built to fit into the assembly schedule, they were used in the later P-51C's. The upgrades in the airframe could handle, and could also well use, the horsepower increases.

In case you are not familiar with the progression of P-51 aircraft, here's a quick tell-tale of each:

P-51 Razorback style canopy, engine intake on top of engine cowling.
P-51A Virtually indistinguishable from the standard P-51 except more horsepower. Incidentlally, it was the Brits who named the P-51 the "Mustang". Much like riding an obnoxious American horse they thought. Until they saw what it could do. Then it was a good thing.

Here's an old reel showing British P-51A's at work and mostly in training.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usqV_zUpGCs

That's a beautiful thing!

The A-36 Apache can be distinguished by the two cannons barrels on either side of the engine cowling just below the exhausts. If the aircraft is sitting for long the dive brakes on them will droop.

Heres a shot of A-36.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfTBoTUtZ5k

And a close-up. All that served (N. Africa) were painted OD Green.

AT 0:58 two aircraft lined up to take off, the all silver one (w/Star and Bar) is the A-36 The OD plane #2 to take off is the "A". The Bluenose with invasion stripes is the "B" and of course the bubble tops are all "D"'s. The A-36 and "A" are #1 and #2 @ 2:20 also.

Packard built the V-1650 engines under license from Rolls Royce.

FWIW, Rolls Royce engines were also installed in P-40F's and P-40L's. The upper cowling air intake is unmistakeably missing on both.
 

sandwarrior

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Re: Red Tails - due out 1/20

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Niles Coyote</div><div class="ubbcode-body">sandwarrior, excellent post! Thanks for sharing!</div></div>

If you've ever gotten the chance to turn wrenches on those god forsaken, beautiful (frustrating pieces of shit...incredible aircraft by the way)) you'd know what they mean to history. Obviously, they mean a lot to me. I could stand there day after day and watch them fly.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shootist2004</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Looks like the movie contains alot of CGI but I guess it saves money.....</div></div>

I really would be awesome to watch some of the 'best of the best' of that era just square off and film it. The problem is high use, specifically high power use, of those aircraft takes a toll on them. There aren't that many left, and it's not feasible to build a bunch of brand new ones. It would be cool to see the real deal stuff (even just Hollywood) flying. But, it costs so much to maintain them, they can't just go out and hire a Squadron, like they did in "<span style="font-style: italic">Fighter Squadron</span>".

But, that would be cool if they could.
 

Niles Coyote

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    Re: Red Tails - due out 1/20

    Caught the first showing this morning, and left feeling a little disappointed. After working a midnight shift I’ve been up 20+ hours and am a little tired so it will be interesting to hear what others think...

    I found the story to have many good messages intertwined with in it. But the acting was lacking significantly, lines seemed forced, comically at times.

    Coming from an aviation family I have been too many air shows and watched WWII war bird's fly over head. I was hoping to hear that powerful throaty roar of those massive engines but that seemed to have been forgotten. So no sound award from me. I was also anticipating awesome dog fights and while this picture had a few moments of aerial combat I think I got more out of the history channels “dog fights” series a few years ago.

    I heard that Lucas did not receive any support for this and funded it alone maybe that had something to do with it. Someone tell me I am wrong and need to see it again when I am a little more alert.
     

    sandwarrior

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    Re: Red Tails - due out 1/20

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Niles Coyote</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Caught the first showing this morning, and left feeling a little disappointed. After working a midnight shift I’ve been up 20+ hours and am a little tired so it will be interesting to hear what others think...

    I found the story to have many good messages intertwined with in it. But the acting was lacking significantly, lines seemed forced, comically at times.

    Coming from an aviation family I have been too many air shows and watched WWII war bird's fly over head. I was hoping to hear that powerful throaty roar of those massive engines but that seemed to have been forgotten. So no sound award from me. I was also anticipating awesome dog fights and while this picture had a few moments of aerial combat I think I got more out of the history channels “dog fights” series a few years ago.

    I heard that Lucas did not receive any support for this and funded it alone maybe that had something to do with it. Someone tell me I am wrong and need to see it again when I am a little more alert.
    </div></div>

    So, if you were to compare it to the first one, or say, "<span style="font-style: italic">Memphis Belle</span>", How would it rate?

    Better yet, is it as good as this?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=booCDyCFxFg

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyJUXttD2oQ

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjnYo7qECzg

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LryvsoDEl7w

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ss1TWvRhDGI

    The <span style="text-decoration: underline">legend</span> of Y-29
     

    Dogtown

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    Re: Red Tails - due out 1/20

    It's not getting good reviews. Most are saying it's a great story that's muddled by poor acting and dialog.
     

    Niles Coyote

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    Re: Red Tails - due out 1/20

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So, if you were to compare it to the first one, or say, "<span style="font-style: italic">Memphis Belle</span>", How would it rate?

    Better yet, is it as good as this?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=booCDyCFxFg

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyJUXttD2oQ

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjnYo7qECzg

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LryvsoDEl7w

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ss1TWvRhDGI

    The <span style="text-decoration: underline">legend</span> of Y-29 </div></div>

    IMHO, "<span style="font-style: italic">Memphis Belle</span>" was better. Watched that again last night as it has been awhile. Not sure if I ever saw the first one. Is that titled the same? If this was a remake I guess I should have held my opinion till I watch the original. That may have explained a few things.
    wink.gif


    I will have to wait till I am on a faster computer to see your links.
     

    tbone6977

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    Re: Red Tails - due out 1/20

    Thanks for the reviews. I was planning to go & see the movie tonight. I have recently seen local news interviews with one of the Tuskegee pilots and a B-17 pilot they protected. The bomber pilot couldn't say enough about the courage and skill of the Red Tails. The two vets have been close friends for over 12 years.
     

    tomcatfan

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    Re: Red Tails - due out 1/20

    IMO whats unique about this movie is all they have to do is follow the history of the Tuskegee Airmen. Kind of like Band of Brothers, you only have to tell the story with minimal Hollywood bull crap and it will be epic. I'm looking forward to seeing this movie, I just hope they do the history justice.
     

    sandwarrior

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    Re: Red Tails - due out 1/20

    The original was called "<span style="font-style: italic">The Tuskeegee Airmen</span>". Cuba Gooding Jr. was in that one as well as one of the pilots. The main character was played by Laurence Fishburne. Benjamin O. Davis was played by Andre Braugher of "Law and Order" and Men of a certain age, fame.

    My favorite line in that movie was after one of Lee's (Fishburn) men had been lost, and he gets called to B.O. Davis' office. He gets another mission right after he gets a medal (no ceremony) and promoted. He asks, "Is it really going to matter?" Davis replies, "This is no ordinary mission. You were not assigned this mission. You were requested..."

    Sad to say there were a lot of things that came out of the Tuskeegee Project that never came to light.

    One of them was that Benjamin Davis wrote the method of engaging and defeating a much faster aircraft. In this case the P-51 vs. Me-262. That information is used even today in air combat tactics classes. But, it was buried post WWII only to be dug out by the likes of Boyd. Who, himself, was shoved to the backwaters of the Air Force because he didn't play the glory game.

    The clear demonstration that if you take a group of people, demand discipline, train them to very high standards...and then get awesome results when they go into combat.

    And, one of my favorites, a guy who washed out at the end of the program for doing something like what happened in the first movie, showboating or playing around downtown too late.

    Instead of running out and grabbing a plane and diving into the ground killing himself, he was transferred and got a job as a cargo pilot...where he ended up hauling "stuff" for the O.S.S.
    whistle.gif


    One of the Tuskeegee Airmen was running an escape and intelligence network after being shot down...from a prisoner of war camp...which spawned the idea for "The Great Escape" and "Hogan's Heroes". I'm sure there wasn't as many funny moments.

    The list goes on. They were a pretty incredible group.
     

    garrett4

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    Re: Red Tails - due out 1/20

    The sad thing is many of them never flew again after the war even they wanted too. Saw an interview with a former Airman who went to Eastern Airlines and submitted an application to the employment office and as he was walking out the door turned to see the person who took the info just throw it into the trashcan.. He later found out they didn't hire "colored pilots" cause they didn't think whites would be comfortable having blacks as their captains. Sad
     

    Alaskaman11

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    Re: Red Tails - due out 1/20

    The thing that made me sick was the way Geroge Lucas made the Luftwaffe pilot. I have met Gunther Rall, was a hr late from meeting Erik Hartman when I was a kid, these guys were just like our guys. They were not so filled with hate that you could smell it coming off the screen. Yes, they wanted to live through the war, they wanted to get back to their family's. When I saw that flight leader on screen, the only thing he did not have was a SS skull on his flight cap. Oh, one other thing, if a P51 gets hit from a 30MM round from a 262, and I mean 1 round, the P51 exploads! Let alone a man taking a few rounds in the chest. Rant over!
     

    sandwarrior

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    Re: Red Tails - due out 1/20

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shootist2004</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think the C had the Allison engine and the D had the Rolls
    Royce engine...</div></div>

    No

    The original P-51 was equipped with an Allison V-1710-39. (Britished called it the V-1710-F3R. A 1000 hp engine@ 12,000 ft. and 1,150 rated for takeoff (5 min)

    The P-51A and A-36 Apache (ground attack/dive bomber) were equipped with the Allison V-1710-81 (British V-1710-F20R). Noteworthy as neither had a high altitude supercharger (what Mustangs are famous for, high altitude combat)

    It was a P-51A that had the Rolls Royce (RR) Merlin 61 (1,290 hp) mated to it in 1942 by the British, and wowed the crowd!

    That led to re-engineering and orders for the P-51B (built in Long Beach by North American) and the P-51C (built in Dallas by North American) to be ordered. They both started with a Packard built V-1650-3* ( RR Merlin 68, with high altitude superchargers) This double wowed the crowd. Because now, the aircraft was not only way faster, it had performance like you wouldn't believe above 25,000 ft. Which is where it's maximum speed rating is. The Packard (RR) V-1650-3 is rated at 1,520 HP, but was de-rated for the airframe to 1,400 hp. Over the course of airframes being upgraded through the war those engines were rated up to 1560 hp.

    Then the P-51D came along with a new and improved high altitude engine (and most notably the bubble canopy) That was a Packard built V-1650-7 Rated at 1590 hp. Through progression this was increased to 1,750 by wars end.

    Because, building P-51B and P-51C models didn't end simultaneously, (P-51C's ran longer) and a surplus of V-1650-7 engines had been built to fit into the assembly schedule, they were used in the later P-51C's. The upgrades in the airframe could handle, and could also well use, the horsepower increases.

    In case you are not familiar with the progression of P-51 aircraft, here's a quick tell-tale of each:

    P-51 Razorback style canopy, engine intake on top of engine cowling.
    P-51A Virtually indistinguishable from the standard P-51 except more horsepower. Incidentlally, it was the Brits who named the P-51 the "Mustang". Much like riding an obnoxious American horse they thought. Until they saw what it could do. Then it was a good thing.

    Here's an old reel showing British P-51A's at work and mostly in training.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usqV_zUpGCs

    That's a beautiful thing!

    The A-36 Apache can be distinguished by the two cannons barrels on either side of the engine cowling just below the exhausts. If the aircraft is sitting for long the dive brakes on them will droop.

    Heres a shot of A-36.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfTBoTUtZ5k

    And a close-up. All that served (N. Africa) were painted OD Green.

    AT 0:58 two aircraft lined up to take off, the all silver one (w/Star and Bar) is the A-36 The OD plane #2 to take off is the "A". The Bluenose with invasion stripes is the "B" and of course the bubble tops are all "D"'s. The A-36 and "A" are #1 and #2 @ 2:20 also.

    Packard built the V-1650 engines under license from Rolls Royce.

    FWIW, Rolls Royce engines were also installed in P-40F's and P-40L's. The upper cowling air intake is unmistakeably missing on both.</div></div>

    Just wanted to make a little correction here. The P-51B's (and subsequent -D's) were built in Inglewood, not Long Beach.
     

    Fred_C_Dobbs

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    Re: Red Tails - due out 1/20

    What a stinker. Lucas must've made this one to try to get his African-American girlfriend, Mellody Hobson, over that whole Jar Jar Binks business.

    What the movie lacks in compelling drama, it makes up for in historical inaccuracy. I've heard of dramatic license but I'm shocked Daniel Haulman hasn't sued for stealing the screenplay from his book, Eleven Myths About the Tuskegee Airmen, because that pretty much sums up the storyline.

    On a positive note, the CGI in the dogfights was really good.
     

    NorthernBorn

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    Re: Red Tails - due out 1/20

    Awful movie. Horrible acting, terrible screen play. Almost every line spoken in this movie just felt awkward and forced. I've seen high school plays with better acting than this film. This is more of a high dollar insult to the Tuskegee Airmen than a tribute. The last 20 minutes of the film were supposed to be the most dramatic and emotional parts... instead whoever edited the film RUSHED through it like they were trying to shorten it for TV.
     

    Jethro3898

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    Re: Red Tails - due out 1/20

    I love the story of the Tuskegee airmen, and I felt that "Red Tails" cheapened the story. It was full of falsehoods and inaccuracies.

    The only "bright side" I see to the movie is that it probably opened the story to a new generation of young people who might not have ever heard of them.

    Could have been much better.
     

    Greg Langelius *

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    Re: Red Tails - due out 1/20

    True history seldom survives the screen writing process.

    For the most part, it can't get past the producers. Not enough 'pop' and 'zazz'. It always seems to need a dose of revision to make it box office-worthy.

    In nearly every instance, Hollywood 'history' never happened.