Have always reloaded with rcbs fl dies set to neck size olny, planning on getting either the rcbs or redding s bushing dies, from my understanding most remove the neck expander ball, in doing so how do you keep from shaving bullets ? also when seating with these dies seating bullets do they still compress the neck around the bullit or just use the compression from the neck bushing process. also is it better to use a seperate decaper or decap and neck size at the same time without the expander.
redding or rcbs s bushing dies
- Thread starter hesco
- Start date
Re: redding or rcbs s bushing dies
As much as I really like RCBS gear, I prefer the Redding "S" full length sizing die. You can back it off 1/4 turn and only neck size with it. And everyone elses bushings BUT RCBS are compatable. The Redding, Hornady, or Wilson style bushings are easier to find in my area. The RCBS bushings are mail order only. No dealers in this area carry them.
By using a full length sizing die you can adjust it for your specific chamber if you wish. To do that with a neck sizer and body die it takes extra time & energy.
Whether or not they shave jackets on your cases depends on how you prep your brass and how small you go with the bushing. A general place to start is .002" under the neck size of a loaded round.
I generally chamfer the case mounths on most brass before I load it.
As much as I really like RCBS gear, I prefer the Redding "S" full length sizing die. You can back it off 1/4 turn and only neck size with it. And everyone elses bushings BUT RCBS are compatable. The Redding, Hornady, or Wilson style bushings are easier to find in my area. The RCBS bushings are mail order only. No dealers in this area carry them.
By using a full length sizing die you can adjust it for your specific chamber if you wish. To do that with a neck sizer and body die it takes extra time & energy.
Whether or not they shave jackets on your cases depends on how you prep your brass and how small you go with the bushing. A general place to start is .002" under the neck size of a loaded round.
I generally chamfer the case mounths on most brass before I load it.
Re: redding or rcbs s bushing dies
I don't think you quite grasp the concept so let's see if I can explain it.
When a cartridge fires, the neck increase its circumference as the bullet is released. The neck will have its expansion limited by the walls of the chamber and will actually decrease a little bit as the case is extracted and cools. Brass is somewhat elastic.
The fired case will have a neck that cannot hold a bullet, usually. There are chambers that are cut so tight the neck expand very little, just enough to release the bullet and then it springs back some, maybe enough to hold a bullet.
In your case, the cartridge will have a neck size that will simply not hold a bullet. A die will bring the outside diameter of the neck down to the same size for all brands of cases. By using an expander ball, the upstroke on your press will pull the ball through the neck and make the internal diameter to the size of the ball. Regular dies make all case the same outside diameter and then the expander ball make them all the same inside diameter, outer diameter be damned.
Enter the bushing die without the expander ball. Here you bring down the neck to the outside diameter that you want and leave the case alone. Using an exppander ball would just defeat what you have just done with the bushing. As you can see, if the neck is thicker for one brand than another, the internal diameter will be tighter and you do not have the expander ball to bring up the ID to a proper size.
So the trick is to choose the proper size bushing. You do this by measuring the OD of a loaded cartridge with the brand of case you want to use and then deduct whatever amount you want for neck tension. For a match bolt action, I use about .001 or .002 for neck tension; for match semi-auto, I use .003. Other may use more tension for hunting or other type ammo.
So, for example say your .223 brass loaded with a bullet measures .244, this means your brass has .010 inch thick walls. .244-.224= .020 and divide that by 2. So if you wanted to have say .003 inch of neck tension, then you would look for a bushing size of .241. But that is for that brass or brand of brass. Another brand may have wall thickness of .015 and in that case you will need a larger bushing, more like .251.
So it is critical that you measure your OD properly and that you do not mix your brass. In .223 I use 3 brands and I have 3 different bushings (actually more than that,) and I make sure I have the proper bushing for the brand I resize. In .308 I use only two brands and I have two bushings.
I used to decap seperately, but gave that up shortly after getting into bushing dies. Redding has a button that will hold the decaping die but will not tough the case neck and that's what you want.
I don't think you quite grasp the concept so let's see if I can explain it.
When a cartridge fires, the neck increase its circumference as the bullet is released. The neck will have its expansion limited by the walls of the chamber and will actually decrease a little bit as the case is extracted and cools. Brass is somewhat elastic.
The fired case will have a neck that cannot hold a bullet, usually. There are chambers that are cut so tight the neck expand very little, just enough to release the bullet and then it springs back some, maybe enough to hold a bullet.
In your case, the cartridge will have a neck size that will simply not hold a bullet. A die will bring the outside diameter of the neck down to the same size for all brands of cases. By using an expander ball, the upstroke on your press will pull the ball through the neck and make the internal diameter to the size of the ball. Regular dies make all case the same outside diameter and then the expander ball make them all the same inside diameter, outer diameter be damned.
Enter the bushing die without the expander ball. Here you bring down the neck to the outside diameter that you want and leave the case alone. Using an exppander ball would just defeat what you have just done with the bushing. As you can see, if the neck is thicker for one brand than another, the internal diameter will be tighter and you do not have the expander ball to bring up the ID to a proper size.
So the trick is to choose the proper size bushing. You do this by measuring the OD of a loaded cartridge with the brand of case you want to use and then deduct whatever amount you want for neck tension. For a match bolt action, I use about .001 or .002 for neck tension; for match semi-auto, I use .003. Other may use more tension for hunting or other type ammo.
So, for example say your .223 brass loaded with a bullet measures .244, this means your brass has .010 inch thick walls. .244-.224= .020 and divide that by 2. So if you wanted to have say .003 inch of neck tension, then you would look for a bushing size of .241. But that is for that brass or brand of brass. Another brand may have wall thickness of .015 and in that case you will need a larger bushing, more like .251.
So it is critical that you measure your OD properly and that you do not mix your brass. In .223 I use 3 brands and I have 3 different bushings (actually more than that,) and I make sure I have the proper bushing for the brand I resize. In .308 I use only two brands and I have two bushings.
I used to decap seperately, but gave that up shortly after getting into bushing dies. Redding has a button that will hold the decaping die but will not tough the case neck and that's what you want.
Re: redding or rcbs s bushing dies
From what i understand so far all bullet seating dies do not compress neck around the bullet, they only use the friction set by the resizing die for example, the busing die will leave the inside diameter of the neck .306 thus giving a press or friction fit. has anyone measured the id of their necks with different size bushing, have you noticed any springback.
From what i understand so far all bullet seating dies do not compress neck around the bullet, they only use the friction set by the resizing die for example, the busing die will leave the inside diameter of the neck .306 thus giving a press or friction fit. has anyone measured the id of their necks with different size bushing, have you noticed any springback.
Re: redding or rcbs s bushing dies
Correct. The bullet seating die just pushes the bullet into the neck. There are various dies that will allow you to further crimp the neck if you want, but I don't use those with bushing dies.
I'm sure there is a bit of spring back even with bushing dies, so what I do for match ammo is that I want to size my brass no less than one week before I seat the bullets. In other words, I will size say on one weekend and the next weekend, I will charge the powder and seat the bullet. I never size and then turn around and seat the bullet, but that's for my match ammo only.
This may be a superfluous parameter, but that's what I use. I figure whatever spring back is going to occur will have occured over that week. Some people use rabbit feet, I use time.
Correct. The bullet seating die just pushes the bullet into the neck. There are various dies that will allow you to further crimp the neck if you want, but I don't use those with bushing dies.
I'm sure there is a bit of spring back even with bushing dies, so what I do for match ammo is that I want to size my brass no less than one week before I seat the bullets. In other words, I will size say on one weekend and the next weekend, I will charge the powder and seat the bullet. I never size and then turn around and seat the bullet, but that's for my match ammo only.
This may be a superfluous parameter, but that's what I use. I figure whatever spring back is going to occur will have occured over that week. Some people use rabbit feet, I use time.
Re: redding or rcbs s bushing dies
thanks for the replys, have been reloading since i was 14 always thought the seating dies compressed the neck around the bullet as it was being seated, regardless of crimping or not, reason i am wanting bushing dies is to increase case life.
presume with .002 compression on the bushing dies bullets in the mag wont move from recoil in 308win? from what i understand the benchresters that load one at a time use .0005 to .001 tension, bullets may move with this small amount of tension in a magazine?
thanks for the replys, have been reloading since i was 14 always thought the seating dies compressed the neck around the bullet as it was being seated, regardless of crimping or not, reason i am wanting bushing dies is to increase case life.
presume with .002 compression on the bushing dies bullets in the mag wont move from recoil in 308win? from what i understand the benchresters that load one at a time use .0005 to .001 tension, bullets may move with this small amount of tension in a magazine?
Re: redding or rcbs s bushing dies
In my benchrest box I have several different bushings. Several are opened up by .0005" (five ten thousandths of an inch). .002" will probably work OK for a 308. Watch the rounds in the magazine. If they are getting beat back you may want to go .003" That's currently what I use for uncrimped 300 WinMag rounds.
In my benchrest box I have several different bushings. Several are opened up by .0005" (five ten thousandths of an inch). .002" will probably work OK for a 308. Watch the rounds in the magazine. If they are getting beat back you may want to go .003" That's currently what I use for uncrimped 300 WinMag rounds.
Re: redding or rcbs s bushing dies
have another question relating to the bushing dies, has anyone done any test to see how much pressure it takes to move the bullet down in the case, with regards to the amount of press fit. example would it take a 50 pound of pressure to move the bullet with .002 fit? how many pounds for .004 or .006 if no one has this info i can try it at work. the figures would vary depending on the hardness an thickness of the brass.
have another question relating to the bushing dies, has anyone done any test to see how much pressure it takes to move the bullet down in the case, with regards to the amount of press fit. example would it take a 50 pound of pressure to move the bullet with .002 fit? how many pounds for .004 or .006 if no one has this info i can try it at work. the figures would vary depending on the hardness an thickness of the brass.
Re: redding or rcbs s bushing dies
Actually that's going to change from one brand of brass to another and also with how many times said brass has been fired. As the case necks are fired and sized they get "work hardened" and either split the case mouth or get them annealed.
Actually that's going to change from one brand of brass to another and also with how many times said brass has been fired. As the case necks are fired and sized they get "work hardened" and either split the case mouth or get them annealed.
Re: redding or rcbs s bushing dies
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hesco</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> thanks for the replys, have been reloading since i was 14 always thought the seating dies compressed the neck around the bullet as it was being seated, regardless of crimping or not, reason i am wanting bushing dies is to increase case life.
presume with .002 compression on the bushing dies bullets in the mag wont move from recoil in 308win? from what i understand the benchresters that load one at a time use .0005 to .001 tension, bullets may move with this small amount of tension in a magazine? </div></div>
Many seating dies do have a crimp feature. It's not something we want so we don't use the feature. If your seater die is threaded down far enough to contact the shell holder on that type die then you're crimping. Most instructions have die setup to have the seater die backed off one full turn from the shell holder to avoid crimping.
I find that it's a crappy system anyhow to combine seating with crimping. Your moving the bullet the same time you're squeezing it. A seperate crimp die is a better way to go should one be desiring to crimp. I have played with taper crimping on semi auto loads. I have since quit that.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hesco</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> thanks for the replys, have been reloading since i was 14 always thought the seating dies compressed the neck around the bullet as it was being seated, regardless of crimping or not, reason i am wanting bushing dies is to increase case life.
presume with .002 compression on the bushing dies bullets in the mag wont move from recoil in 308win? from what i understand the benchresters that load one at a time use .0005 to .001 tension, bullets may move with this small amount of tension in a magazine? </div></div>
Many seating dies do have a crimp feature. It's not something we want so we don't use the feature. If your seater die is threaded down far enough to contact the shell holder on that type die then you're crimping. Most instructions have die setup to have the seater die backed off one full turn from the shell holder to avoid crimping.
I find that it's a crappy system anyhow to combine seating with crimping. Your moving the bullet the same time you're squeezing it. A seperate crimp die is a better way to go should one be desiring to crimp. I have played with taper crimping on semi auto loads. I have since quit that.
