Gunsmithing Reducing Locking Time

[SIG700]

Wondering if any of you guys have played around with higher rated springs and a lighter weight firing pin to reduce the locking time. If anyone has- what improvements have you seen- if any?

In theory it sounds like a good idea- but... we don't shoot in "theory".

 

[hesco]

Re: Reducing Locking Time

Presume you are asking about the rem 700 most use stock type spring and firing pins for best durability, i think you can cut locktime in half by going with stronger spring and lighter pin but going that route increases the chance of breaking firing pins

 

[SIG700]

Re: Reducing Locking Time

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hesco</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Presume you are asking about the rem 700 most use stock type spring and firing pins for best durability, i think you can cut locktime in half by going with stronger spring and lighter pin but going that route increases the chance of breaking firing pins </div></div>



While, yes, a stronger spring could increase chance of breaks for all pins- could you please explain to me how a lighter titanium pin would break more often than the standard steel?


And yes, I was referring to my 700, I didn't mention it in my original post because I did not want to limit responses to just those with 700 applications.

Anyone who could comment on any performance changes from stock to either heavier spring or lighter pin would be greatly appreciated.

 

[LRI]

Re: Reducing Locking Time

There's a balance when it comes to impact energy. A stiffer spring doesn't mean its faster. Gotta factor in that the higher energy spring likely has more mass due to either a higher coil count and/or wire diameter.

Spring wire choice is important too. The better stuff having a higher silicon/chromium content. Similar to what's used in high rpm 4S engine valvetrain components.

Then consider the inertia of a lighter striker. It may accelerate quicker and reduce lock time but kinetic energy is also less because it weighs less. Only way to increase the delivered energy is to increase the distance of travel (fall) which will allow for more stored energy upon impact.
-but guess what? Now you increased the locktime due to the increase in travel. Right back to square one in most instances. Can't rob pete without paying paul.

Also. Increased friction due to coil count going up. More drag on the bolt body id and the striker. . .

C.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Reducing Locking Time

Most of what people are thinking they will fix is actually poor trigger control, which no amount of firing system upgrade will fix that.

I have two new upgraded pins and springs here but I haven't gone forward yet and tried them to see if they make a real difference. I highly doubt a sub-$100 upgrade is gonna make any difference unless you are shooting a ton of positional stuff...and you have reached a level to see sub 1/2MOA changes on targets from your position. In the prone you won't see any advantage if you are following through with proper trigger control. And then like said above, are you actually changing the lock time or just changing something else thinking you are changing your lock time ?

 

[SIG700]

Re: Reducing Locking Time

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...
Then consider the inertia of a lighter striker. It may accelerate quicker and reduce lock time but kinetic energy is also less because it weighs less. Only way to increase the delivered energy is to increase the distance of travel (fall) which will allow for more stored energy upon impact.
-but guess what? Now you increased the locktime due to the increase in travel. Right back to square one in most instances. Can't rob peter without paying paul.

C. </div></div>

Wouldn't this only be an issue if the pin does not have the KE to ignite a primer?

 

[SIG700]

Re: Reducing Locking Time

Thank you LL for an answer that actually pertains to the question I asked.

 

[LRI]

Re: Reducing Locking Time

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SIG700</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...
Then consider the inertia of a lighter striker. It may accelerate quicker and reduce lock time but kinetic energy is also less because it weighs less. Only way to increase the delivered energy is to increase the distance of travel (fall) which will allow for more stored energy upon impact.
-but guess what? Now you increased the locktime due to the increase in travel. Right back to square one in most instances. Can't rob peter without paying paul.

C. </div></div>

Wouldn't this only be an issue if the pin does not have the KE to ignite a primer? </div></div>

Read Hatchers notebook. This was figured out a century ago.

 

[Topstrap]

Re: Reducing Locking Time

Agree with LL totally on this one. None of my guns have what anyone would call target triggers. Some are heavy, some have a small catch in them but if you squeeze till they go off with no anticipated reaction on your part then it won't matter if the trigger is 5oz or 10lbs. A lighter faster trigger/lock time can help an offhand/position shooter where they need to know exactly when it'll break as they come onto the target in their shooting routine.

If any of you have shot flintlock muzzle loaders for any length of time you'll develop some very good trigger/follow thru techniques. Same with revolvers or most handguns where trigger, grip, elbow even arm tension plays a factor. A faster lock time might just cover up a wee bit more of poor technique in the millisecond it takes the firing pin to hit the primer and send the projectile down the bore but it would sure be hard to measure that improvement.

Very few shooters elevate to the skill level that getting a bit faster locktime will help them, way too many other factors to overcome first..... at least in what I've found. If you're doing everything else correctly then I can't see where that would made a difference in the overall scheme of things pertaining to getting a perfect shot off.

Topstrap

 

[SIG700]

Re: Reducing Locking Time

I agree completely that proper trigger technique is up most important. I feel I've gotten a decent grasp on proper trigger technique- the reason for my original post was not for a way to make up for improper technique- it was more because at the range one of the older guys had come up to me and while talking he had mentioned a faster lock time might be helpful- so I decided to see what you guys had though about this and if you had any experience testing standard vs "upgraded".

 

[hero's machine]

Re: Reducing Locking Time

Ahh, the one thing the etronix was good for.

 

[cooleyjc]

Re: Reducing Locking Time

There is a very complete technical discussion on lock time in Stuart Ottenson's two volume set titled "The Bolt Action". (at least I think that's the title) Ottenson also lists lock times for a variety of actions and discusses the strengths and weakness of various arrangements. If memory serves me lock times of 2-3 milliseconds are common. Reducing lock time significantly below 2 milliseconds in a spring driven mechanical system and still providing enough energy to set off the primer is not simple, as Mr. Dixon says, but if you want to try to do it that set of books is a great place to start. Ottenson also wrote a book on benchrest triggers which I have not read, but would like to find.