Suppressors Reflex suppressors
- Thread starter aslrookie
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I'll weigh in on this. I have a reflex suppressor. Mine is 8 inches long with 2.5 inches reflexed over the barrel and 5.5 inches in front of the barrel. It sounds the same as a 7" non reflexed suppressor. The downsides I see are:
1. More weight for a given suppression level. The reflexed portion of the suppressor does not add a ton of volume and the volume that is added is not as useful for trapping gas as volume that is in front of the barrel in between baffles.
2. Limited barrel diameter for the reflexed portion. Mine limits the barrel diameter at the end of the barrel to .775". This is smaller than a lot of barrel contours used by precision shooters. You can have a barrel turned down just at the end to work well, but this adds expense and inconvenience.
1. More weight for a given suppression level. The reflexed portion of the suppressor does not add a ton of volume and the volume that is added is not as useful for trapping gas as volume that is in front of the barrel in between baffles.
2. Limited barrel diameter for the reflexed portion. Mine limits the barrel diameter at the end of the barrel to .775". This is smaller than a lot of barrel contours used by precision shooters. You can have a barrel turned down just at the end to work well, but this adds expense and inconvenience.
Just a thought from South Africa
Weight and balance concerns aside, I think more people would go for reflex suppressors if it weren't for the cost of obtaining one
If a suppressor can fit multiple rifles, it makes a high initial cost seem more like an investment than a fee, but if a reflex limits it to only a handful of firearms it might discourage any would-be buyers
Here we see reflex or even full reflex a lot more often because it's affordable enough that you get a suppressor per firearm you want suppressed
Seeing a US point of view on reflex suppressors was actually the reason i searched for this thread
I just got my full reflex about a month ago and couldn't be happier with it from trying it out
All the best from South Africa
Cheers
Alex
Weight and balance concerns aside, I think more people would go for reflex suppressors if it weren't for the cost of obtaining one
If a suppressor can fit multiple rifles, it makes a high initial cost seem more like an investment than a fee, but if a reflex limits it to only a handful of firearms it might discourage any would-be buyers
Here we see reflex or even full reflex a lot more often because it's affordable enough that you get a suppressor per firearm you want suppressed
Seeing a US point of view on reflex suppressors was actually the reason i searched for this thread
I just got my full reflex about a month ago and couldn't be happier with it from trying it out
All the best from South Africa
Cheers
Alex
In my opinion the the back over the barrel / Reflex suppressors do not serve a use as well as modern high quality front mounting suppressors.
For both optimum sound and flash suppression, the baffles situated in front of the muzzle achieve more performance than the expansion tube / chamber rearwards. You also do not see the best flash suppression from a suppressor that adds little length.
Just looking at the sound suppression, smaller / modern front mounting suppressors can be as good or even better than some of the back over the barrel suppressors. This applies to both civilian/hunting rifle suppressors and MIL/LE suppressors.
So in essence a lot of that back over the barrel length and weight is wasted space and weight, if not utilized in a more complex form for a lower back pressure.
In which case the suppressor can get heavier and more complex.
We do have a pretty long history with back over the barrel and front mounting suppressors. Our company has manufactured since 1994 the Reflex supppressors for a another local company, in addition to having our own products lines. The term Reflex on suppressors originates from here.
Best Regards!
Tuukka Jokinen
Ase Utra sound suppressors
For both optimum sound and flash suppression, the baffles situated in front of the muzzle achieve more performance than the expansion tube / chamber rearwards. You also do not see the best flash suppression from a suppressor that adds little length.
Just looking at the sound suppression, smaller / modern front mounting suppressors can be as good or even better than some of the back over the barrel suppressors. This applies to both civilian/hunting rifle suppressors and MIL/LE suppressors.
So in essence a lot of that back over the barrel length and weight is wasted space and weight, if not utilized in a more complex form for a lower back pressure.
In which case the suppressor can get heavier and more complex.
We do have a pretty long history with back over the barrel and front mounting suppressors. Our company has manufactured since 1994 the Reflex supppressors for a another local company, in addition to having our own products lines. The term Reflex on suppressors originates from here.
Best Regards!
Tuukka Jokinen
Ase Utra sound suppressors
I respect your credibility with suppressors, but if reflex designs are basically wasted space for the portion that is over the barrel, then why couldn't you suppress a 308 rifle with a 3" long end of the barrel suppressor and still maintain the same Db reduction? If that were the case, companies wouldn't bother with making 7" long end of the barrel cans if they could achieve the same results with 3 or 4". The gas has to go somewhere.
I agree that the reflex cans have to be bigger overall in size. My AMTAC is by far the biggest suppressor I own both in diameter and length. However, it balances better and adds less overall length on a 16" carbine. I can feel the weight of the suppressor on the end of a barrel with my SiCo, Griffin, and even my full titanium can. The over the barrel design doesn't pull the weight of the rifle forward.
On a heavy PRS oriented rifle, a suppressor probably wont have much impact on the weight of the rifle in terms of balance. The optic and stock weigh so much that the suppressor makes a small difference. It is nice having a 26" barrel and only adding a few inches though instead of another 7 or 8".
Hi,
I painted with a pretty wide brush in that comment,
Not all small suppressors are as effective as they could/should be and not all large suppressors either.
Depending on the design, some back over the barrel suppressors are utilizing the rear section better than others, but looking at the size vs performance differences, in many cases the gain from the rear section is not great enough to make it worthwhile.
Based on our testing and also independent tests, we can pretty honestly say that our front mounting models have some the best size vs. performance ratios on international market.
Looking at our models, the small SL5i suppressor is probably the smallest suppressor on the international market that brigns the SPL below 140 dB at the shooters ear on a .308 Win rifle. This also happens to be our sold model in general to hunting use = Good suppression but in a very small size and light weight.
However we do have the longer SL7i variant or the jet-Z COMPACT in the other family if the user is looking fore more sound suppression and understands that the suppressor is a bit larger / heavier.
Several European civilian & hunting rifle suppressor manufacturers offer primarily back over the barrel suppressors, some of their claims being better balance, suppression etc.
However when looking at where most of the weight is, it is at the front and we have done comparison tests etc. with the balance points and the difference is neglible sometimes ( the back over the barrel suppressors can be easily heavier than our lightest front mounting ones )
We have not necessarily countered this online etc. as much as we could have done. So companies of course have their own philosophy and way of making suppressors, but is it necessarily always as good overall as they claim, that is another story.
Tuukka
I painted with a pretty wide brush in that comment,
Not all small suppressors are as effective as they could/should be and not all large suppressors either.
Depending on the design, some back over the barrel suppressors are utilizing the rear section better than others, but looking at the size vs performance differences, in many cases the gain from the rear section is not great enough to make it worthwhile.
Based on our testing and also independent tests, we can pretty honestly say that our front mounting models have some the best size vs. performance ratios on international market.
Looking at our models, the small SL5i suppressor is probably the smallest suppressor on the international market that brigns the SPL below 140 dB at the shooters ear on a .308 Win rifle. This also happens to be our sold model in general to hunting use = Good suppression but in a very small size and light weight.
However we do have the longer SL7i variant or the jet-Z COMPACT in the other family if the user is looking fore more sound suppression and understands that the suppressor is a bit larger / heavier.
Several European civilian & hunting rifle suppressor manufacturers offer primarily back over the barrel suppressors, some of their claims being better balance, suppression etc.
However when looking at where most of the weight is, it is at the front and we have done comparison tests etc. with the balance points and the difference is neglible sometimes ( the back over the barrel suppressors can be easily heavier than our lightest front mounting ones )
We have not necessarily countered this online etc. as much as we could have done. So companies of course have their own philosophy and way of making suppressors, but is it necessarily always as good overall as they claim, that is another story.
Tuukka
That makes a lot more sense. I will have to take a look at your website.
I always wondered about reflex cans too, it's one of those things that make sense intuitively but doesn't in practice. I'm guessing it has to do with the fact the gas coming from the muzzle in a tight cone is in turn vacuumed through the rest of the suppressor as the bullet passes through. So the reflex part doesn't see much action.
I can only guess that's it because when KAC changed the M110 suppressor, they went from a long reflex can to one that's half as long and weighs half as much and has exactly the same if not better suppression. Army also did away with the Ops Inc can and everyone that has one says they sucked.
Kinda makes you wonder though, doesn't it? Military fielding shit that could have been proven otherwise by civilians on the internet doing simple side by side comparisons?
I can only guess that's it because when KAC changed the M110 suppressor, they went from a long reflex can to one that's half as long and weighs half as much and has exactly the same if not better suppression. Army also did away with the Ops Inc can and everyone that has one says they sucked.
Kinda makes you wonder though, doesn't it? Military fielding shit that could have been proven otherwise by civilians on the internet doing simple side by side comparisons?
I'd say the design of the suppressor plays a bigger part than the reflex or lack thereof
I've seen reflex suppressors that are nothing more than a suppressor with extra volume over the barrel that don't perform that much differently from well made non-reflex suppressors
I may be a bit biased but the guy that makes the suppressor I bought got his design patented because it does in fact redirect gases away from the muzzle and move the pressure spike away from the crown
Haven't had any chances to do a proper test but I'd say it is a fair bit quieter than most other suppressors around here
It also sits at around 450mm long and 62mm diameter so a tradeoff of bulk and weight for more volume
Cheers
Alex
I've seen reflex suppressors that are nothing more than a suppressor with extra volume over the barrel that don't perform that much differently from well made non-reflex suppressors
I may be a bit biased
but the guy that makes the suppressor I bought got his design patented because it does in fact redirect gases away from the muzzle and move the pressure spike away from the crownHaven't had any chances to do a proper test but I'd say it is a fair bit quieter than most other suppressors around here
It also sits at around 450mm long and 62mm diameter so a tradeoff of bulk and weight for more volume
Cheers
Alex
Odd how many people call and order suppressors because they liked the ones they had while serving(Ops Inc). You can't make everyone happy, but to say everyone hated them makes me wonder which suppressor company you work for.
Everyone said Ops Inc cans sucked? First I've heard that, I know some guys who used the Mk12 and liked it. So do you just makes thing up?
I've got an AEM5 and it works great, sounds a bit quieter to my ear than my friends Omega and it has a nicer tone. I have a Amtac Mantis P in jail for a .308 that I am trying to keep reasonably short and handy, we'll see how that goes in 9 months or so. Reflex suppressors have their place for certain applications.
I have two AEM5's in .30cal. Sound suppression is so impressive to everyone who hears it. The disadvantage is only that you have to be more selective with your barrels. Why, because the barrel has to have a 20 degree shoulder built in so not just any barrel will do. Advantage, for me, I just know it's all lined up right because of the 20 degree shoulder.
I have an AEM3 and a AEM5-30 and hate them so much I'm going to order another AEM5-30 so I have one for the 300 BO. I don't have to worry about knocking gun over and the suppressor hiting something and getting mis alighned because it is a reflex, good luck with thread on barrel only. I'm a member of the OKCGC and there are a lot of members with suppressors of all makes and I have not found one I would trade for.
As a bonus you can call and talk to the man making them.
As a bonus you can call and talk to the man making them.
Your speculation on Ops Inc cans is inaccurate. Not only is it the first time I've read a negative opinion of those cans it's also contrary to my personal experience and everything I've read posted here by professionals who have used them.
Hey, that's what ANOTHER guy who used 'em says as well as some members here. I'm not knocking what you're saying though. A can is better than no can, and without another to compare it with, they all sound good. That's my experience in general.
I can tell you for a fact about the QDC and the old Gemtech "soda cans" or whatever the fuck those were. KAC will tell you the same thing. About their own shit. It looks like Allen Engineering came up with a replacement that's not reflex too.
Ops Inc also doesn't come up here unless someone is building a clone rifle and wants that can. And then they get told it's not worth it, to use something else. Also, they don't make it anymore
Look, I've got some shit cans too. I've got 4 AAC's I'd trade for Sakers in a heartbeat.
Allen Engineering is making the Ops cans. Ron Allen continued making them after Phil Seaburg hung it up. You can buy an Ops12 can today but it's called an AEM5.
The vast majority of the comments about "not worth it" is for guys making shit they are calling mk12s, or buying DD mk12s. In those cases, maybe it's not worth it to change the barrel profile, etc. but it's not due to performance.
There may be one or two out there that pick at the Ops/AE cans for weight or profile requirements but I have never seen anyone complain about quality or how quiet they are. I have shot my AEM5 side by side with several other brands and not only is the AEM5 less expensive (may he the same or slightly more with the mounts) , it's as quiet and as accurate or more so than the GT, YH, etc. we had out there. It's also half MOA or better repeatable. I don't have a lot of experience with KAC cans but the Ops12 is a solid unit with little to nothing to bitch about for a can that sees (has seen) seriously heavy service for 15+ years. Try dumping a nutsack through a Ti can and let me know how good it works after that. NP with the Ops12 can.
Stryker, you're ever in middle TN hit me up and I'll put you behind one. Then, judge it for yourself. You don't come away with a shit eating grin, beer is on me.
Lots of good options out there for both types of cans. We all lay our money down and take our chances, but the AE cans are a rock solid bet.
The vast majority of the comments about "not worth it" is for guys making shit they are calling mk12s, or buying DD mk12s. In those cases, maybe it's not worth it to change the barrel profile, etc. but it's not due to performance.
There may be one or two out there that pick at the Ops/AE cans for weight or profile requirements but I have never seen anyone complain about quality or how quiet they are. I have shot my AEM5 side by side with several other brands and not only is the AEM5 less expensive (may he the same or slightly more with the mounts) , it's as quiet and as accurate or more so than the GT, YH, etc. we had out there. It's also half MOA or better repeatable. I don't have a lot of experience with KAC cans but the Ops12 is a solid unit with little to nothing to bitch about for a can that sees (has seen) seriously heavy service for 15+ years. Try dumping a nutsack through a Ti can and let me know how good it works after that. NP with the Ops12 can.
Stryker, you're ever in middle TN hit me up and I'll put you behind one. Then, judge it for yourself. You don't come away with a shit eating grin, beer is on me.
Lots of good options out there for both types of cans. We all lay our money down and take our chances, but the AE cans are a rock solid bet.
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Ron Allen always did, and still does make the 'Ops 12th Model' only it is now the AEM5. When Phil passed, Ron started a new company; Allen Engineering, but name aside the product remained almost identical. Not sure what you're referring to specifically, but thems the facts.
I’m aware of that. I meant to quote strykervet.
