Maggie’s Religion explained in a new way
- Thread starter hermosabeach
- Start date
Usually, religious and political conversations tend to poke other folks up, no matter how nice someone else try to be. Whether someone says religion is good, or bad, it is going to make someone else upset.
Abou Ben Adhem
BY LEIGH HUNT
Abou Ben Adhem (may his tribe increase!)
Awoke one night from a deep dream of peace,
And saw, within the moonlight in his room,
Making it rich, and like a lily in bloom,
An angel writing in a book of gold:—
Exceeding peace had made Ben Adhem bold,
And to the presence in the room he said,
"What writest thou?"—The vision raised its head,
And with a look made of all sweet accord,
Answered, "The names of those who love the Lord."
"And is mine one?" said Abou. "Nay, not so,"
Replied the angel. Abou spoke more low,
But cheerly still; and said, "I pray thee, then,
Write me as one that loves his fellow men."
The angel wrote, and vanished. The next night
It came again with a great wakening light,
And showed the names whom love of God had blest,
And lo! Ben Adhem's name led all the rest.
Abou Ben Adhem
BY LEIGH HUNT
Abou Ben Adhem (may his tribe increase!)
Awoke one night from a deep dream of peace,
And saw, within the moonlight in his room,
Making it rich, and like a lily in bloom,
An angel writing in a book of gold:—
Exceeding peace had made Ben Adhem bold,
And to the presence in the room he said,
"What writest thou?"—The vision raised its head,
And with a look made of all sweet accord,
Answered, "The names of those who love the Lord."
"And is mine one?" said Abou. "Nay, not so,"
Replied the angel. Abou spoke more low,
But cheerly still; and said, "I pray thee, then,
Write me as one that loves his fellow men."
The angel wrote, and vanished. The next night
It came again with a great wakening light,
And showed the names whom love of God had blest,
And lo! Ben Adhem's name led all the rest.
D
Deleted member 113831
Guest
I'll admit I let myself get baited into this.
But...He is the never changing (immutable) one. He is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
He loved you before you were born the same as He loves you now. The distance between you and He, is only determined by you.
I'm out.
Few people hated “religion” (as it is usually expressed and practiced) more than Jesus. He spent much of his ministry ranting about the error of “religion”. That’s precisely why He had to die to pay the penalty for our sins, because no amount of trying to do good could really change us or fix the sins we have already committed.
16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. 21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”
16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. 21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”
I am Christian, and I can fully understand why some people are anti-religion. I am too. Some of the things that have been done in the name of religion are horrific, and haven't been dealt with well (I'm specifically thinking about the catholic priest issues). The problem is, people take exception and offense at the church/christianity in general, without having experienced it themselves. I see it as similar to being anti-gun, without having ever fired a gun or held one, or maybe even researched the facts. That said, becoming a Christian was the very very best thing that ever happened to me. It makes me strive to be a better man, husband and father. I don't always succeed.
The most famous version of the problem of evil is attributed to Epicurus by David Hume (pictured), who was relying on an attribution of it to him by the Christian apologist Lactantius. The trilemma does not occur in any of Epicurus's extant writings, however. If Epicurus did write some version of it, it would have been an argument against divine providence, not the existence of deities.[113]
See also: Problem of evil § Epicurus, and Trilemma § Epicurus' trilemma
The Epicurean paradox or riddle of Epicurus or Epicurus' trilemma is a version of the problem of evil. Lactantiusattributes this trilemma to Epicurus in De Ira Dei, 13, 20-21:
In Dialogues concerning Natural Religion (1779), David Humealso attributes the argument to Epicurus:
From Wikipedia
Without even answering the riddle, The “problem of evil” is actually one of the many ways we know there is a God.
The very fact that we say there is evil...
If there is evil then there is some standard of morality that determines what is good and what is evil.
No argument from science or from the natural world can explain the existence of morality. If Darwin was right, the weak have no rights and I’m free to do as I please with them. This reality gets very personal when we consider our wives, mothers, and children...
Ultimately, there is no standard of morality and no such thing as morality if it wasn’t given to us by God.
The very fact that we say there is evil...
If there is evil then there is some standard of morality that determines what is good and what is evil.
No argument from science or from the natural world can explain the existence of morality. If Darwin was right, the weak have no rights and I’m free to do as I please with them. This reality gets very personal when we consider our wives, mothers, and children...
Ultimately, there is no standard of morality and no such thing as morality if it wasn’t given to us by God.
The “problem of evil” is only a problem for people who have a false notion of who God really is.
The Bible doesn’t speak of a God who is only love, rainbows, and sunshine.
It speaks of His immeasurable wrath.
It speaks of His terrible vengeance.
It speaks of His extreme hatred.
It gives examples of His justice that most of us wouldn’t consider justice at all.
It speaks of Him hardening a man’s heart (so that he would not do the right thing) and then punishing that man for not doing the right thing.
It speaks of Him intentionally withholding salvation from some while freely offering it to others.
If God is rainbows and sunshine then, yeah, it’s harder to explain the existence of evil...
But He’s not. He is much more complex than that.
Despite all the hard facts above (and I can provide biblical reference for each), He loves people and His very strong preference is that every person avail themselves off the free gift of His Son Jesus.
Jesus suffered the full righteous wrath, anger, indignation, vengeance, and justice that God held for sinners. The price is paid in full for those who will accept it by repenting and believing in Jesus for their salvation.
The Bible doesn’t speak of a God who is only love, rainbows, and sunshine.
It speaks of His immeasurable wrath.
It speaks of His terrible vengeance.
It speaks of His extreme hatred.
It gives examples of His justice that most of us wouldn’t consider justice at all.
It speaks of Him hardening a man’s heart (so that he would not do the right thing) and then punishing that man for not doing the right thing.
It speaks of Him intentionally withholding salvation from some while freely offering it to others.
If God is rainbows and sunshine then, yeah, it’s harder to explain the existence of evil...
But He’s not. He is much more complex than that.
Despite all the hard facts above (and I can provide biblical reference for each), He loves people and His very strong preference is that every person avail themselves off the free gift of His Son Jesus.
Jesus suffered the full righteous wrath, anger, indignation, vengeance, and justice that God held for sinners. The price is paid in full for those who will accept it by repenting and believing in Jesus for their salvation.
“See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ.”
“For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength”
“For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. ... For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength. Brothers, think of what you were when you were called.”
“For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength”
“For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. ... For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength. Brothers, think of what you were when you were called.”
D
Deleted member 113831
Guest
Another take on evil, is that evil is inevitable.
The creation cannot be the equal of the creator. Since only the holy and righteous Creator can be entirely free of evil, it stands to reason that the creation will inevitably be affected by evil.
What is evil? Anything that is inconsistent with the holy and righteous nature of God.
God however, is sovereign even over evil. Evil exists because He allows it. It isn't that He is powerless to remove it, for one day it will indeed be removed. And in fact, has already been defeated.
Evil must run it's course, but it does so within the limits that have been set upon it.
Evil is the fire in which we are refined. Evil is temporary. Our response to it is eternal.
The creation cannot be the equal of the creator. Since only the holy and righteous Creator can be entirely free of evil, it stands to reason that the creation will inevitably be affected by evil.
What is evil? Anything that is inconsistent with the holy and righteous nature of God.
God however, is sovereign even over evil. Evil exists because He allows it. It isn't that He is powerless to remove it, for one day it will indeed be removed. And in fact, has already been defeated.
Evil must run it's course, but it does so within the limits that have been set upon it.
Evil is the fire in which we are refined. Evil is temporary. Our response to it is eternal.
Last edited by a moderator:
I see somebody bothered to actually read the whole book and not just skim the happy, love, sunshine & flowers highlights in the nice parts as told by the happy all smiles folks.
We have many notions of who God is. Many of which aren’t based on the Bible or religious texts but based on our ASSUMPTIONS... where we read between the lines inaccurately or entirely made up beliefs to suit our preconceived notions.
W54 brought up a great point. See the big picture. The whole picture. Not just what you want to believe or highlight about God.
I’ve come to realize God isn’t who I thought He was. He’s a lot more complex and “unsearchable” than I was taught. It’s uncomfortable. It’s disturbing at times (Psalm 18:11 among others... if God is light and can’t stand darkness what is He doing shrouding Himself in darkness?)
God wants a relationship with us. He doesn’t want us to just know Him how we know George Washington. It’s more complicated, dangerous and difficult to get to know God than I was taught in Baptist Sunday school. But He’s worth our efforts.
W54 brought up a great point. See the big picture. The whole picture. Not just what you want to believe or highlight about God.
I’ve come to realize God isn’t who I thought He was. He’s a lot more complex and “unsearchable” than I was taught. It’s uncomfortable. It’s disturbing at times (Psalm 18:11 among others... if God is light and can’t stand darkness what is He doing shrouding Himself in darkness?)
God wants a relationship with us. He doesn’t want us to just know Him how we know George Washington. It’s more complicated, dangerous and difficult to get to know God than I was taught in Baptist Sunday school. But He’s worth our efforts.
For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
When y'all can explain how the Universe came to existence, all the planets perfectly balance, revolve and rotate round their celestial stars, how the waters and all the creatures and animals came to be. how too closer to the sun would kill us all and how the father would kill us but we happen to be placed perfectly, the sorrow of death and the joy of birth. Y'all need to explain this. God is real and the path so seek him has been laid, when like every thing worth achieving, there are lie and side distraction and calls itself numerous religions. do not be swayed the Almighty is Real.
I've had it explained to me that without evil, there can be no good...
Stupidest thing I heard in the entire month...
Good is the easiest thing; you just do some, and then you do some more...
I don't speak with God, I don't speak for God. I listen to my fellow man and embrace those who don't speak evil.
It can get awful lonely some days...
Stupidest thing I heard in the entire month...
Good is the easiest thing; you just do some, and then you do some more...
I don't speak with God, I don't speak for God. I listen to my fellow man and embrace those who don't speak evil.
It can get awful lonely some days...
Thats like saying, without dark, there can be no light. Dark doesn't cause the light, but dark surely does show the contrast between the two.
Doing, speaking and promoting good is certainly what we should all strive for.
I believe we all have a nature that swings between naturally doing good, and the opposite. If there is good, and if there is evil, it has to come from somewhere. It has to have started somewhere.
Good people are hard to find, and it sounds like you are a good person, regardless of whether you join me in my belief in God.
D
Deleted member 113831
Guest
Without an objective transcendent standard, how does one determine what is good? Good then becomes something that lives in the eye of the beholder. Your sense of "good", almost certainly, does not entirely match another's.
The fact that we all do evil, shows that we are all born fallen and imperfect. The fact that any one of us is capable of good, shows that God's laws are written on our heart. This same good that we do condemns us then, because it shows that we know better.
Many, many people are "good" people. Using an average human standard, then by definition at least half of us are more "good" than bad.
The problem lies in the fact that it is not the "average human" we will be measured against. The standard of heaven is absolute righteous perfection. It is the standard of a holy God, Himself, that we are judged against.
So, the pertinent question to any unbeliever isn't, "How good of a person are you?"...but it is..."How good of a God are you?"
The fact that we all do evil, shows that we are all born fallen and imperfect. The fact that any one of us is capable of good, shows that God's laws are written on our heart. This same good that we do condemns us then, because it shows that we know better.
Many, many people are "good" people. Using an average human standard, then by definition at least half of us are more "good" than bad.
The problem lies in the fact that it is not the "average human" we will be measured against. The standard of heaven is absolute righteous perfection. It is the standard of a holy God, Himself, that we are judged against.
So, the pertinent question to any unbeliever isn't, "How good of a person are you?"...but it is..."How good of a God are you?"
Last edited by a moderator:
Well, without evil, we wouldn't know what good is. Kinda like dark. Without light, dark would just be normal.
The universe is under no obligation to make sense to us unfortunately. This rationalization above is often referred to as the "god of the gaps" fallacy. We have an extremely well developed model a second after the expansion (i.e., big bang), what science fails to demonstrate is what was going on 1 second before the expansion. But the honest position is this: neither does anyone/anything else.
When we weigh all the truth claims made by science vs (insert any religion here), I'd be very surprised if any of the theological truth claims ever over turned any scientific claims. However, there are countless scientific claims over our history that have overturned the claims of (insert any religion here).
As an unbeliever (specifically someone who believes the claim of a god existing hasn't met its burden of proof) I measure how "good" I am by the positive impact I have on others, and that positive impact can often be measured by the overall wellness of the individuals I interact with. This is not driven by any laws being written on my heart, nor does it come from any transcendent source (given no evidence exists for anything transcendent, god or not).
Morality is culturally subjective, not objective, and it is regularly reasoned by and changed, and ultimately evolved at the individual level.
Last edited:
while i am not religious, i feel many people mistakenly disregard the fact that they were brought up and raised in a judeo-christian society shaped for centuries on the moral foundations outlined by the church.
you might believe you are an inherently good person, and that this has nothing to do with God or Faith or any Church, but you would be wrong. jmho.
you might believe you are an inherently good person, and that this has nothing to do with God or Faith or any Church, but you would be wrong. jmho.
“We have an extremely well developed model a second after the expansion (i.e., big bang), what science fails to demonstrate is what was going on 1 second before the expansion. But the honest position is this: neither does anyone/anything else.”
This is why imho the big bag theory is bankrupt before it even starts. One must BELIEVE all of this is the product of an unexplainable explosion. Heck throw the term expansion in there if you want (although you still have to explain how something expanded from nothing). Not trying to bash your belief it’s just 3am & I can’t sleep so y’all gettin my 2¢ on the subject!?
This is why imho the big bag theory is bankrupt before it even starts. One must BELIEVE all of this is the product of an unexplainable explosion. Heck throw the term expansion in there if you want (although you still have to explain how something expanded from nothing). Not trying to bash your belief it’s just 3am & I can’t sleep so y’all gettin my 2¢ on the subject!?
D
Deleted member 113831
Guest
Your "religion" requires more unsubstantiated faith than mine does. I don't have enough faith to be an athiest.
If there is no God, then who has been answering my prayers for the last 34 years?
More to the point, Intelligent design vs Happenstance.
Dark matter and energy come to mind.
Dark matter 27% Dark energy 68%.
While we can say they "exist" we haven't a clue why.
Dogma for all.
R
Dark matter and energy come to mind.
Dark matter 27% Dark energy 68%.
While we can say they "exist" we haven't a clue why.
Dogma for all.
R
I hate posting, but the statement “morality is culturally subjective “ can only be a half truth that should not be stated with impunity. There MUST be absolutes in morality. If morality is as feeble and unstable as “culture” deems, then no person, or act will ever be right or wrong. Not the case at all.
i agree with you on this, but then somebody needs to tell the goatfuckers that will stone rape victims to death.
If humans define "morality" themselves in absence of some higher intelligence, then it "morality" will Always be as the current society decides it is allowed to be & be subject to their whims.
If humans define "morality" as the rules and commands from a higher intelligence, then "morality" will always be what those humans who are in a position of authority to define to other humans the exact interpretation of the commands of the "higher intelligence" decide it should be.
If you look back over the last 6000 years of recorded history, you'll see "morality" encompasses everything including complete opposites depending on time / place.
Even today, we accept as "moral" things that perhaps a more enlightened, society that values individual freedom more highly, would find barbaric and horribly absurd.
Soo... you just substantiated what I said with more words.
Morality is “God given”, not up to human hands. Also prolly not smart to trust goat humpers to set moral standards either.
Morality is “God given”, not up to human hands. Also prolly not smart to trust goat humpers to set moral standards either.
Thanks for the reply. I'd disagree with your label and/or assumption that I have a religion. Religion being defined as a belief system, or theology supporting, a superhuman intelligent power. Out of the 10,000+ religions and created by man, and even more countless deities, none have been proven true, or remotely come close to meeting a basic burden of proof (and by basic, i mean any type of standard of proof we use through out any other domain of discussion in our daily lives)
I also define faith as the belief in something without good reason and/or evidence. So, since I do not have a religious belief system, by definition I do not have any religion. My primary goal is to believe in as many demonstrably true things as possible, and not to believe in any false things as possible.
To your last question, I don't have enough information about all the prayers you said throughout your entire lifetime to make an educated guess. But If forced to answer now, I'd venture a guess and say prayer, generally speaking, is normally seen as effective due to post-hoc rationalization and/or placebo effect.
The big bang theory is a body of facts explaining a natural phenomenon. Theories are always subject to revision when new data pops up. But the big bang theory specifically explains how the universe expands, not why the expansion happened.
It is the best we have, for now. No one has the answers to what happened before that, neither science or any religion.
Lots of shit in the old testament that was amoral. Deuteronomy 22:21 is an example. When I read stuff like this, I can’t help but think it’s derived by humans, not a supernatural being. We don’t have to look very far back(last century perhaps?) to see similar and disgusting behavior from humans.
Did you drive to work safely today because of an answered prayer, or because you happened to not run into a physical circumstance that resulted in a crash?
all religion is flawed, because all men are flawed.
My comments on morality being subjective and up to cultural variables by no means endorses any heinous acts hinted at below by other posters, I am just pointing out there are distinct group of people who believe different things are moral or unmoral, and those morals obviously change drastically (albeit slowly) over culture's evolution or de-evolution.
These discussions are usually better in person, so much to type, but in general, we have larges amounts of biological and neuroscientific evidence that humans reason through their own ultimatey morality. As social animals, we share space and resources, and those variables constantly shift due to the environment and cause our behaviors to change. As social animals, we survive longer by getting along better with other humans, and how we treat each other is driven by our constantly evolving morality, and ideally we are maximizing each other's wellness along the way.
One example/question I like to give, and I'll assume most here are believers in one of the three abrahamic religions:
There are over 650+ laws/directives throughout the king james bible, obviously the most popular are the ten commandments. Evidence suggests humans, even religious humans, rationalize their morality isbecause we are no longer adhereing to some of the atrocious laws in liviticus, deuteronomy, and/oreExodus when it comes to stoning adulters to death, killing children for not being virgins before marriage, and not adhering to slavery. We looked at those directives from the bible and at one point in our human history, we determined all that is not conducive to the wellness of members of our society.
Outside of this argument, there has been no evidence any deity exists, so suggesting a deity has transmitted a moral code to humans hasn't met the burden of proof.
Let me end on I really enjoy the philosophical and scientific background of these types of questions, so I hope none of this goes sideways or derails into an inappropriate conversation. Happy to chat as long as we remain amenable and civil.
We agree, the evidence largely points to the abrahamic religions being modeled and written through a human man's perspective living between the vast time period of the bronze age and middle ages.
Except of course for mormonism and scientology, they are a bit younger.
Looks like we think a lot alike here but believe differently. I can live with that. Way cool how civil and intelligent guys in on THIS talk are.
Still think morality is an absolute. Still think whatever the circumstances or time- wrong is wrong and right is always right. It’s not up to humans. I’ll go back to just readin what y’all say now.
Still think morality is an absolute. Still think whatever the circumstances or time- wrong is wrong and right is always right. It’s not up to humans. I’ll go back to just readin what y’all say now.
Had a buddy in fca once talking with an atheist! His talk had a long lasting memory for me! He asked the atheist, if he had no faith, then how does he have hope. His answer was for now and the moment. Then the guy told the atheist, just in case you are right, and I am wrong, we are the same. But if I’m right,as I believe, and you are wrong, I’ve gained it all and you have lost it all. I am a believer in God and Christ! If not, what hope would I have?
This is a common paradox called Pascal's Wager, normally presented to non believers. In short, it doesn't keep me up at night by anymeans. There is no empirical evidence for either a deity existing and/or an afterlife.
The time a believers spends worshipping a deity, the non believer may spend living life to its fullest at that same time.
There of course a chance I'm wrong, because once again im simply rejecting truth claims due to lack of evidence. I'm not saying a deity DOESN'T exist because that is a truth claim I'd have to support.
But I'm not worried currently about being wrong based on current data.
Edited to reflect Pascal's Wager label.
Last edited:
I wish you good brother! I’m not here or worthy to pass judgement on another.
If ok, would like to ask one follow up question: how would we go about verifying an absolute morality coming from a deity?
D
Deleted member 113831
Guest
Which prophecy?
D
Deleted member 113831
Guest
The evidence is literally every particle of matter or energy in existence.
This life is a vapor, for both believers and the heathen, it is your eternity that is at issue.
If you live like there is no God, then you had BETTER be right.
Bullshit.
If we were all honest, we would all say we were terrified. Every man worships something (even if it is himself). Every man seeks to be justified in some way. To tell yourself otherwise is a lie.
Last edited by a moderator:
D
Deleted member 113831
Guest
Start with the ones concerning the messiah. The old testament was completed and canonized 400 years before Christ was born. It was translated from Hebrew into Greek over 200 years before he was born.
If you are really interested you will do your own research. It is my responsibility to speak truth and offer a defense of the faith.
But it isn't my job to hold your hand. I suspect that if you really wanted these answers, you would have found them already.
That’s a lotta BS man, seriously.
Edit: Not a thing you wrote there was even the slightest bit compelling.
I like to justify my faith in a rather simplistic way. Science says we’re just a collection of carbon based atoms. A higher deity (God) assigned each lump of us carbon atoms an individualality, or a soul, so to speak. As individual souls, we are free to choose many paths during our earthly existence. The Bible is our moral compass. I believe Jesus was God’s way of making his presence tangible for the common man. It is up to each one of us individually to adhere to the word of God the best we can, or risk an undesirable eternity.
The religions that man has created just makes for a counterproductive hierarchy that has no purpose in the big picture of our earthly life. For me, Christianity is the faith, not Protestants vs. Catholics, etc.
The religions that man has created just makes for a counterproductive hierarchy that has no purpose in the big picture of our earthly life. For me, Christianity is the faith, not Protestants vs. Catholics, etc.
