Gunsmithing rem 700 bolt question

[kujo929]

Probably a stupid question but:

On a rifle I bought the bolt does not reset when the bolt handle is lifted. Once the bolt is moved any amount to the rear and then pushed forward again it resets but does not reset by lifting alone. I realize it may not matter as the bolt must move to cycle a round anyway but on my other factory 700's the bolt resets by lifting it alone without any rearward movement.

The one that does not reset by lifting is (allegedly) a trued action and my others are factory actions. Would that make a difference, or is there a potential problem?

 

[SDWhirlwind]

Re: rem 700 bolt question

Need to readjust the trigger. Either not enough sear engagement(rear screw) or not enough spring tension(bottom front screw) or both. This providing it is an older trigger with the 3 adjustment screws(2 front and 1 rear)!

 

[Gruff]

Re: rem 700 bolt question

Nothing to worry about. It's just that the bolt on that particular action has to move rearward a little for the sear cam to engage the firing pin head (cocking piece).

 

[0481]

Re: rem 700 bolt question

+1^

 

[kujo929]

Re: rem 700 bolt question

alright. Thanks for the help. I knew this gun was going to need some trigger work anyway. It had much bigger problems to start with so I wasn't even concerned with the trigger yet. It is an old style trigger that has a horrendous amount of creep currently. It measures at 3lbs as I bought it but it has so much take up that it moves more than some 2 stage triggers I've shot.

 

[Huckleberry75]

Re: rem 700 bolt question

Nothing like a "fixer upper".

This is good info. My dad has an older 6mm with this problem. It's information like this that I joined this place.

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: rem 700 bolt question

Move the cocking piece sear angle rearward between .001" and .010" until it works like it should. Can be done with a surface grinder or a carbide end mill if you're real nifty and careful.
I've done it.

SDwhirlwind, I think its an issue other than what you think it is.
What I think the problem is, trigger adjustment can not fix.
I see the problem you think it is, and I believe its something else Ive ran into before.

 

[kujo929]

Re: rem 700 bolt question

Keith,

Your a little over my head. But I do have a spare 700 trigger assembly I can install to confirm if it is only a trigger issue.

Thank you for the help

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: rem 700 bolt question

I doubt it's the trigger adjustment, especially with what you've described about it. <span style="font-weight: bold">But, if you have a different trigger that has its top sear bar sear angle moved further forward from the one giving you the trouble, it may fix it though.</span>

The trigger sear(top sear angle that stops the cocking piece sear), in relation to the cocking piece sear, is a little too far rearward on lift(or the cocking piece sear is too far forward still, even after riding up the cocking cam. When lifting the bolt but holding it forward, your cocking piece sear isnt far enough rearward to catch the trigger sear.


Now the trigger sear can not/should not be messed with.

The cocking piece sear angle can be easily milled or ground rearward, making it so that it IS far enough to the rear to catch the trigger sear when you lift the bolt and the cocking piece rides up the cocking cam.


Move the cocking piece sear angle rearward, in .001" increments, until it catches on lift while holding the bolt forward.


This can be done in a mill with a sharp carbide end mill, or on a surface grinder if you make a fixture to hold it correctly.

Be careful not to change the angle, or to remove too much. The more you remove, the less forward travel your firing pin has before striking your primer. This isn't a problem if you keep the material removal(off the cocking piece sear) to a minimum.



After moving that angle back lets say, .005" rearward(just a number), you will be able to lift your bolt and have it catch the trigger sear, without needing to move rearward at all.


The "problem" described in the first post Ive seen before, and is easily taken care of it you have the right equipment.

Adding a stiffer firing pin spring isn't a bad idea after doing this.


I can post pics if really necessary.


<span style="font-weight: bold">This is no at home fix. You need the right equipment to do it or it will look like shit and may slip your trigger sear.</span> Do not try it with a dremel.


PM me or call if you like.

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: rem 700 bolt question

There are two firing system sear sets in a Remington rifle. The main pair everyone thinks of that can be seen in the trigger "window", that is adjustable using the triggers adjusting screws.


The other sear pair is the one Im talking about. It is the cocking piece sear angle and the triggers top sear bar's sear angle that holds the cocking piece back when the rifle is cocked and ready to fire.


When you're lifting your bolt handle, the cocking piece is riding up the cocking cam and moves rearward. In your case its not moving rearward enough for the cocking piece sear to move behind the triggers top bar sear.

The fix Im describing removes material from the cocking piece sear angle, so that it IS far enough rearward to be behind the triggers top sear.


See?

 

[SDWhirlwind]

Re: rem 700 bolt question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keith at PCR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Move the cocking piece sear angle rearward between .001" and .010" until it works like it should. Can be done with a surface grinder or a carbide end mill if you're real nifty and careful.
I've done it.

<span style="font-weight: bold">SDwhirlwind, I think its an issue other than what you think it is.
What I think the problem is, trigger adjustment can not fix.
I see the problem you think it is, and I believe its something else Ive ran into before.</span> </div></div>

Quite frankly your fartin into the wind just like I and every other poster is with internet guessing on a fix for a 'not in hand' item!!!!! My post was to eliminate the easy/simple thing it might be first as an improper adjusted trigger can do what OP is describing. But then my 30+yrs of 'home schoolin' isn't worth much!!!

I keep forgetting why I try to help people here???? Oh Yea, the insults and criticism from others is my reward. Damn alzheimers!!!!

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: rem 700 bolt question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SDWhirlwind</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Quite frankly your fartin into the wind just like I and every other poster is with internet guessing on a fix for a 'not in hand' item!!!!! My post was to eliminate the easy/simple thing it might be first as an improper adjusted trigger can do what OP is describing. But then my 30+yrs of 'home schoolin' isn't worth much!!!

I keep forgetting why I try to help people here???? Oh Yea, the insults and criticism from others is my reward. Damn alzheimers!!!! </div></div>

Sir I respect you greatly and wasn't saying you're wrong. I simply said I believe we are suspecting two different problems.

No one insulted you, that's quite obvious.

Ive ran into what he's describing, and what youre describing. Ive fixed both




Back to the topic....

OP, try a different trigger if you have one. Like I said if its' top sear angle is further forward than the one giving you the trouble, it may very well fix it. It only has to be a few thou further forward to make a difference. Too small to notice by eye or even with calipers as there's no good way to measure it. If its' sear is in the same location as the current one, and it is the problem I believe it is, the problem will remain.

Hopefully the new trigger fixes it.

 

[kujo929]

Re: rem 700 bolt question

Keith and Whirlwind, I appreciate your help. You both obviously know much more about this than I do and I will try your recomendations. If it is the problem Keith spoke of then it will be out of my ability to fix at this point and I will just install the other trigger. Either way, the knowledge represented at this site is amazing.

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: rem 700 bolt question

kujo929, if the new trigger install doesn't solve it, installing a new cocking piece might. If your cocking piece, or top sear bar are out of spec by just a couple thousandths it can cause this. Replacing the trigger or cocking piece could very well fix it without any machine work.


If you try the new trigger and it doesn't fix it, and dont want to risk buying a new cocking piece just to have the same problem, send me your cocking piece with $5 for return shipping and I'll remove .007", which should be enough to fix it.

 

[ScottWatkins]

Re: rem 700 bolt question

I have a brand new 700 VLS that has this exact symptom. I'll try adjusting the trigger first.

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: rem 700 bolt question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigMoneyGrip</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have a brand new 700 VLS that has this exact symptom. I'll try adjusting the trigger first. </div></div>


Is it a new X-mark trigger that hasn't been fucked with yet?

 

[LRI]

Re: rem 700 bolt question

A remington is a parial cock on open, partial cock on close operating system.

If the cocking piece is preventing the trigger sear from resetting no amount of trigger adjustment will tune it out.

The solution is to alter the relationship between cocking piece/trigger sear. Often this can be resolved with removing material from the cocking piece. This will allow the trigger sear to reset without partial cycling of the bolt.

In a "perfect" world the sear/cocking piece interfaces as the lugs rotate past the helical ramps in the receiver and purchase the lug abutments. This is a "cock on open only" fire control. Actions like Nesika/Borden have this.

In a remmy this robs a bit of striker travel but with s good spring it'll still run fine.

Hope this helps.

C.

 

[ScottWatkins]

Re: rem 700 bolt question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keith at PCR</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigMoneyGrip</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have a brand new 700 VLS that has this exact symptom. I'll try adjusting the trigger first. </div></div>


Is it a new X-mark trigger that hasn't been fucked with yet? </div></div>
I don't let anyone "eff" with my stuff. But no, it hasn't been adjusted.

 

[Keith Johns]

Re: rem 700 bolt question

Sounds like the same problem kujo929 is having.
Trigger adjustment cant fix it.


As stated material can be removed from the cocking pieces sear angle to fix the problem. You can use your mill or surface grinder.
The steel is hard so go easy if you use an end mill.

I use a sharp ass 1/2" 6 flute carbide end mill, but I dont think size means much. As long as its sharp and good carbide.
A jig is handy to keep it held tight, and held right, in the mill vise. But if you dont plan on doing many of them making a jig may not be worth your time and it can be done without a jig.


Its not a "problem", but I'd never let a rifle build go out with that happening. It bothers me when I feel a rifle that does it.

Plus, Like Chad said, you can change the feel of the bolt close slightly by making it so the cocking piece isn't pulled rearward any more when the bolt cams forward on closing... Just comes up and gently rests on the trigger top bar sear.


The firing pin forward travel lost is minimal, and like I said its not a bad idea to add an aftermarket spring when doing this.

 

[Straight Shooter]

Re: rem 700 bolt question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Its not a "problem", but I'd never let a rifle build go out with that happening. It bothers me when I feel a rifle that does it.</div></div>

I agree with you Keith, I have had no less than 20 new Remingtons through here in the last 6 months and every one of them came from the factory this way. You have to pull the bolt back just a touch to get them to reset. I just assumed it is how Remington is specing them out now. I don't mess with it. So far no complaints. Changing triggers made no difference.

I transfer a lot of used guns for my customers too and see this a lot on the newer guns. I believe it must go back at least 3 years.

 

[LRI]

Re: rem 700 bolt question

Onto the next "quiz".

Why does a striker protrusion need to set at .05-.055 when the ding on the primer is only .025-.030"???

Just sumpthin to ponder on your Friday. . .

 

[jwebster]

Re: rem 700 bolt question

To allow for both clearance and wear?

 

[jwebster]

Re: rem 700 bolt question

Better elaborate some.
SAAMI max chamber .308 Win. 1.640"
SAAMI min cartridge 1.627
primer seated below case head .005
Throw in a little wear/ chamber expansion .002
So there you have .020"
So if reliable ignition occurs over 50% of the total firing pin protrusion range (.050-1/2=.025") and if you have a min spec cartridge in a max spec chamber you are still good to go, but just guessing.

 

[LRI]

Re: rem 700 bolt question

Nope.

Read Hatcher's notebook.

.050-.055 ensured the 1903 springfield went bang regardless of how well/poorly Rosie the riveter chambered the thing.

It ensured "all fire" and since the ammo rotted in the earth after firing it really didn't matter if the webs got stretched out like the prom queen after homecoming.

It's since become a "cardinal rule" of sorts.

Kinda along the same lines as the old "reaching for the banana" story.

I've often debated experimenting with a short pin to see if groups would improve any. Seems funky to me to have a pin crammed up against a primer with the shoulder suspended off the register inside the bolt. Dunno. . .

cool stuff.

C.