Advanced Marksmanship Remington 300 win mag 5r 100m grouping help

[chupper]

Hi, I've been shooting this 5r for about 6 months.
I've been working up custom loads, setting various off the lands OALs
Mostly SMK 190 and 200, berger 190 VLD
rl 22 / 25, H1000, H4350
I'm pretty meticulus with the prep, but I haven't been cleaning the primer pockets.
(just got an stm tumbler to help with this)

I've shot my whole life, but I'm just now trying to get to the dime group / same hole level.
I hear lots of people say they can get these 5rs into a single ragged hole or similar. Yet, I'm not.
I do have an occasional 5 shot ragged hole with 1 or 2 fliers about an inch away.

I shoot bench and prone with a bi-pod. I have a sandbag under the rear of the stock.
I have a Nightforce ATACR so shoot n see is highly disappointing with my groups.
I put a jewell trigger in. Its at 1 lb.

I feel as though the problem is either my trigger or breathing / heart. And I'm looking for feedback regarding what is most likely.
I can hold steady at the middle of my bulls eyes, and if I've been holding my breath, I can see my heart beat float the crosshairs within the circle. Also, if I dry fire, I see small movement (apparently by the spring / firing pin). If I take a breath I see dead center to 7:30 travel of crosshair by about 1-2 inches.

When I actually go to shoot its after 3 long slow breaths and some of the above appears to be eliminated.
I usually don't pull the stock hard into my shoulder. Try to keep it more relaxed.

Any advice? Do tack drivers have all of this eliminated? or does everyone have it and they work around it with timing / consistency?

Thanks for the help.

I can't get my groups any tighter than this:

 

[Aimsmall55]

1) do you have a muzzle break?
2) have you had your barrel bore scoped?
3) what's your coal ( throats are long . I've got one )
4) are you following threw all the way after your shot?

I have the same rig. Your going to find a really good load with r22 or power pro 4000 mr. My gun will shoot h1000 but doesn't like it nearly as much as the other 2 listed. I found a really good load with 73 grains of r22 with a 190 vld right off the lands.

 

[Aimsmall55]

Check your recoil lug and make sure it is nice and snug. Also try Retourqing your action screws. Mine are way off from what is reccomended but thats what my action likes. You also may want to look into having the recoil lug bedded and action trued. From your pics it looks like they are basically the same groups meaning they all look VERY SIMILAR. Action bedding may help too

 

[chupper]

Badger Micro FTE. Recoil doesn't seem that bad. If I'm gonna shoot 50 rnds + in 2-3 hrs, I put a pad on my shoulder.
Bore Not scoped
COAL varies, been trying lots of heads. 3.487 3.457 3.502
I remove my firing pin and run a round in (no primer or powder) open / close bold a few times, see scuffs on bullet, erase scuffs with marker, seat further, repeat until I can't see any new marks. Technique seems a bit in the grey area to me. if I'm gonna shoot for .05 off my lands, there's a lot of room for "interpretation" around these scuff marks.
Follow Through: I would say it's messy. Rifle always jumps up and left, have to move right to get back on target. I am trying to hold tighter (pull into shoulder) and load, push rifle forward onto bipod. When I get this right, the target barley leaves the field of view at 200 m, but I will admit, I can't seem to get full consistency on that.

I've run H1000, RL22, RL25, H 4831 through it with smk 190, 200, Amax 208 178, Nosler CC 155 and berger 190's ( I actually think those bergers may have been best).

barrel to action seems real tight. would say lug is fine. maybe action screws are loose. I will review that.

Are you implying because the groups are similar, its an indication that the gun may be a bit off?
Do you think improving / making consistent follow through would really help? I could totally work on that.

Thanks for all the advice.

 

[Aimsmall55]

Badger Micro FTE. Recoil doesn't seem that bad. If I'm gonna shoot 50 rnds + in 2-3 hrs, I put a pad on my shoulder.
Bore Not scoped
COAL varies, been trying lots of heads. 3.487 3.457 3.502
I remove my firing pin and run a round in (no primer or powder) open / close bold a few times, see scuffs on bullet, erase scuffs with marker, seat further, repeat until I can't see any new marks. Technique seems a bit in the grey area to me. if I'm gonna shoot for .05 off my lands, there's a lot of room for "interpretation" around these scuff marks.
Follow Through: I would say it's messy. Rifle always jumps up and left, have to move right to get back on target. I am trying to hold tighter (pull into shoulder) and load, push rifle forward onto bipod. When I get this right, the target barley leaves the field of view at 200 m, but I will admit, I can't seem to get full consistency on that.

I've run H1000, RL22, RL25, H 4831 through it with smk 190, 200, Amax 208 178, Nosler CC 155 and berger 190's ( I actually think those bergers may have been best).

barrel to action seems real tight. would say lug is fine. maybe action screws are loose. I will review that.

Are you implying because the groups are similar, its an indication that the gun may be a bit off?
Do you think improving / making consistent follow through would really help? I could totally work on that.

Thanks for all the advice.

What I'm saying is that the groups seem to coincide with each other. Meaning the shot pattern looks repeated. I have the same rifle and it has given me some trouble before. Have you got an oal guage ? If not take a sharpy and color the bullet black and load it long once chambered work the bolt a few times and you'll have your distance from the lands.
As for follow through... It makes all the difference in the world. I know , even with a break , it's tough to keep control but you have maintain control in your follow through in order to keep the rifle a product of you and you not a product of the rifle. I had the exact same problem. Then my shooting partner started filming me when I'd shoot. We'd watch my reaction and I'd try to improve from there. Ended up making all the difference in the world.
So I'd suggest loading a 190 vld with 72.5 r22 (right at ,10/1000, the lands). Your oal may be long but mine are 3.675 average. Just try it and let me know. And if you can get someone to film you on an iPhone and watch your self and your reactions

 

[chupper]

Got out again.
Action bolts are tight.
Dug in my bi-pod legs and made extra effort on loading it and staying on target thru shot.

Loaded up a bunch with your recipe.
Labled on pic.
BTW, its a bit dark, all holes are on paper, not the square bullseye.

Other groups are just other loads I had.
All groups 5 rnds.

I think there is a clear improvement there.
I'd say that the fliers are my fault.

I will continue to practice with those loads.
Hopefully, things will progress more quickly.

Thanks.

 

[psinclair]

Try seating deeper....you might be suprised.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

View attachment 17549

Got out again.
Action bolts are tight.
Dug in my bi-pod legs and made extra effort on loading it and staying on target thru shot.

Loaded up a bunch with your recipe.
Labled on pic.
BTW, its a bit dark, all holes are on paper, not the square bullseye.

Other groups are just other loads I had.
All groups 5 rnds.

I think there is a clear improvement there.
I'd say that the fliers are my fault.

I will continue to practice with those loads.
Hopefully, things will progress more quickly.

Thanks.

Judging from both of your posts, you do not yet know how to build or maintain a steady position. The bipod, scope, and target are distracting you. That's to say, your focus is on the perceived scope and bipod benefit; and, therefore, upon shouldering the rifle, you are immediately steering it to create the desired sight picture, which you are maintaining with muscle.

Practice building the position without artificial support to learn how to transmit the stability of the ground into the position through bone alone. This will help you understand the importance for properly integrating bone/artificial support, natural point of aim, and muscular relaxation into the position. With motor memory development, you will eventually understand how to quickly adjust NPA to reduce movement of the rifle while executing the two firing tasks.

One more thing, the bipod and scope, while serving some as aids to marksmanship, may, for you, just be serving as substitutes to marksmanship. Masking your errors at short range, these aids can make it difficult to discern or even recognize shooter error not to mention their origins. Shooting at mid range will reveal through call/strike correlation, and grouping assessment the likely source of all errors, allowing correction. Remember too, since the bullet always goes in the direction the barrel is pointed, not hitting exactly where aimed will always be about movement of the rifle, inconsistent sight alignment, or not properly countering for the effects of gravity, wind, and/or weather, not the sort of things you are now spinning your wheels on as reasons for poor results.

 

[chupper]

One more follow up note to AimSmall55.
I did try seating a bit longer, by +.010 and that was too long. Had to force the bolt a bit. So it appears my chamber is a bit shorter than yours.

Sterling Shooter can I get a bit more detail on "relaxed" comments?
Let me say, I have no formal training in this area (Although I am signed up for a sig sauer reach for 1000 course. Looking forward to that.)
I've read up on how to get into position and I'm sure I've misinterpreted many things.
When I say I made some extra effort on loading the bipod, I mean I'm just reminding myself to do it every time. dug in just means that they're holding the ground as I try to load it, rather than skipping forward.
That said, what I have been trying to do is get into a relaxed prone position where:
If I close my eyes and look away and then look back at the target, I am still on target, or within inches of it anyway.
I don't feel like I'm trying to keep the rifle on the bullseye.
I try to let the sag of my body weight pushing on the butt stock be the force on the bipod. I don't push. Its just the way gravity seems to cantilever me forward a bit.
I do try to pull the rifle into my shoulder. This never seems right. My right arm is almost fully contracted to begin with. It seems my right wrist is almost 90 degrees with my forearm and bicep is fully contracted. (perhaps the stock doesn't fit me very well?) However, if I don't pull the stock into my shoulder, then the rifle jumps quite a bit (up and left). I don't try to pull hard, just maybe 5-10 lbs worth I'd guess. Other than that, I would say that I am all on bones. No muscle.

I do try many dry fires while in this position. typically, it appears that the crosshairs stay in a 1/4" area during this practice.

Does all of this sound about right?

Thanks again.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

OP.

Shoulder the rifle with bone alone, bringing the butt to the head rather than head to butt. While building the position, be cognizant of the elements and factors of a steady position but do not consider the target, that's to say, do not look at the target or steer to it, just let the rifle point where ever it wants to go naturally. This is what is known as your natural point of aim; and, by building the position with bone instead of muscle you should be relaxed. Relaxation equals less movement. Next, adjust NPA for the desired hold you want by moving the entire body rather than by muscling the rifle to the target.

Now, pull the trigger smoothly, follow through, and call your shot. The call/strike corollary will indicate the source of errors: inconsistent sight alignment, position inconsistency, or not correctly countering for wind and weather effects. For example, a shot called at three o'clock striking at three suggests poor trigger control. A shot called right in there but striking left or right is indicative of not correctly countering for wind. If you cannot identify the source of errors by interpreting the shot call/strike corollary, you can still correct errors by just focusing on the fundamentals (what you need to do to accomplish the task), i.e. sight alignment and trigger control.

BTW, the process you are now following to execute the firing tasks does not appear to inspire good results. For example, discovering, upon testing for NPA, that you may be a quarter of an inch off point of aim cannot be accepted, the position must be re-built. In fact, you must be mindful that for the best results the position must be built to a Princess And The Pea level of relaxation.

 

[chupper]

I recently got on a 1000m range
we shot 100, 200, 300, 800, 1000
my 100 was about 3/4 inch
my 200/300 was about 4 inch
my 800 and 1000 was basically all torso shots on an iron maiden. I was really pleasantly surprised.

It seems to me that maybe I have a bullet stabilization issue.
If that spread from 100 to 200 continued out to 1K, I wouldn't have ever hit the maiden. I think I hit it 10-12 consecutive times.

at sub 1000 I shot 190 smk over 72.5 rl22
at 1000 I shot 208 amax over 70.5 rl22

Does this seem to make sense? Or should I still be driving tacks at the shorter ranges?

BTW, regarding follow through.
The instructor pointed out that you don't let go of the trigger. He said tell yourself squeeze, squeeze, squeeze, hold, hold, hold.
Duh. I guess as a newbie, I just didn't get it.
I started pulling the trigger past release and not letting go. Basically never lost track of the target again.
That was a real enlightening experience. Devil is in the details.

Thanks.

 

[Night Eagle]

im curious if u have bedded the rifle and changed from the remmy xmark to a upgraded more stable trigger. Those will tighten your groups. But from your groups it seems the gun is shooting fine...it looks like ur pulling it...you might get on the training vids here on the hide. They shrunk my groups by a significant margin

 

[Sterling Shooter]

I recently got on a 1000m range
we shot 100, 200, 300, 800, 1000
my 100 was about 3/4 inch
my 200/300 was about 4 inch
my 800 and 1000 was basically all torso shots on an iron maiden. I was really pleasantly surprised.

It seems to me that maybe I have a bullet stabilization issue.
If that spread from 100 to 200 continued out to 1K, I wouldn't have ever hit the maiden. I think I hit it 10-12 consecutive times.

at sub 1000 I shot 190 smk over 72.5 rl22
at 1000 I shot 208 amax over 70.5 rl22

Does this seem to make sense? Or should I still be driving tacks at the shorter ranges?

BTW, regarding follow through.
The instructor pointed out that you don't let go of the trigger. He said tell yourself squeeze, squeeze, squeeze, hold, hold, hold.
Duh. I guess as a newbie, I just didn't get it.
I started pulling the trigger past release and not letting go. Basically never lost track of the target again.
That was a real enlightening experience. Devil is in the details.

Thanks.

First, you do not have a bullet stabilization issue. Second, squeeze does not express very well the concept of trigger control. What you want do is pull the trigger so as not to move the rifle. This can be summed up in one word- SMOOTH. a better expression of how you want to pull the trigger to get the desired result- not move the rifle. And, yes, you do want to continue to aim, keeping the trigger depressed until recoil has subsided. This is part of following through. Perhaps, this step by step procedure may help you:

1. Shoulder rifle cognizant of the elements and factors of a steady position but without looking at the target.
2. Adjust natural point of aim for the desired sight picture.
3. Focus on reticle.
4. Pull trigger smoothly.
5. Follow through.

By following through you will be able to call the shot; and, from having a corollary between call and strike, you will be able to analyze for yourself the origin of most shooter/target errors; thus, you will come to understand everything important to good shooting eventually if you examine in a logical process. That's what you are not doing right now; and, it gets fuzzier for you when you accept advice from folks who know nothing about what's important to good shooting but think they do. When you've got the blind leading the blind you tend to keep running into obstacles such as those you have run into. Since you alluded to having an instructor, if I were in your shoes, I might want to seek advice from another with credentials in the arena of your interest.

 

[chupper]

I have not bedded it.
It has a jewel trigger.

Training vids? I didn't know about those. I'll hunt around for them. Thanks

 

[chupper]

I don't understand how this may not be a stabilization issue.
If every time I shoot, I'm about .2 mil at 100
and
1 mil at 200
Then why wouldn't I expect to see that same growth in error at longer range?
1 mil off at 200 would imply about 1*5 = 5 mil off at 1000 would it not?

I don't have an instructor in general. I just got 1 for 1 day at a long range class.
He did point out the sqeeze meant pull in a way to not move the rifle. Keep everything in perfect line. He clarified that he means smooth, and attempted to elaborate to many of us in a way that made sense to each of us.

I do dry fire exercises and I don't see the reticle move outside of a dime at 100m when the firing pin strikes.

 

[Aimsmall55]

chupper, some of those groups look mighty fine. Especially the 208 amax group. I have to ask, you've Always got ONE flyer. Is that on your first shot? Or during the 5 shot groups?

 

[smokebomb]

Chupper, if there's any one person's shooting advice I would listen to in my years on the hide, Sterling Shooter is that person.

Your fundamentals are off, you are not yet at the level of your rifle's capability.

Also, 1 mil is 1 mil from 6" to infinity. It is an angle reference, not a size x at y distance.

If your rifle is shooting to .2mils at 100 yds (0.72"), it should coincide to a .2-.3mil group out to it's limit (vaguely), not factoring environment. There are many exceptions, but a 1" group at 100 is not going to make a 4" group at 200 in your setup. Bad fundamentals will make a 4" group at 200 yds.

Your capability is definetly improving, be proud of that! Keep working on it, one shot at a time.

 

[chupper]

Aimsmall, flyer is random. Never know when it will strike.

 

[chupper]

smokebomb. I am listening to him 100%
I do not mean to second guess him.
Believe me if I'm saying something that appears to challenge anyone here, Its an accident.
All I'm trying to do is get past communication break downs. There are so many details that can be missed.

Yes, my mistake on the math, 1 mil is 1 mil.
I guess I rushed that statement a bit in an effort to incorrectly describe my concern of being way off.
I have a nightforce atacr mil (second focal plane) at full (calibrated) zoom of 25 my group at 200m looked to be about a full mil (10cm)
At a range 5x that, wouldn't my error (still 1 mil) be about 10cm x5 = 50cm (almost 20 inches)

On my grouping at 200m its always about 4 inches.
At my home range, at the class I took.... regardless of ammo.
At that rate of sucking, wouldn't I be so far off at 1000 that I'd never hit an standard iron maiden?

That was the point I was trying to make. at 1000m, I hit like 10-12 consecutive times.

 

[smokebomb]

Have you shot for an actual group beyond 200 yards? Looking at your improved groups still shows you have a break down some where in fundamentals. To have very tight groups with inconsistent impacts and inconsistent fliers is you. It has nothing to do with your ammo or equipment.

It can be ANY variance in the position or pressure of your shoulder, cheek, head, grip fingers, trigger finger, rest...etc.

Think of a rifle like a tuning fork. Consistency is Key. Everything about consistency boils down to harmonics, which is determined by body mechanics. Just like precision archery, just like Olympic curling.

One other thought, are you correctly adjusting parallax out of your scope for each distance?

The work and challenge is part of the fun, then leave it for a while and learn it all over again...

 

[redirt78]

Lots of good information in this one and I am still learning.

What are the dimensions of the "iron maiden" and how big were your groups on it?

Was it difficult to switch from your 190's you were shooting at short range to the 208's at 1000 or did you switch and just start hitting? I ask because I didn't see any mention of you shooting that far before this and I'm just curious. Ballistic solver or chronograph or both or someone else's dope for the 208's? If it was a solver or app which one because it must be working for you. The farthest I've shot is 770 with an 18" 308 on a 10" steel circle.

 

[chupper]

Yes my day at the 1000m we shot
100
200
300
800
10000

I've shot 300 many times and 600 a few.

All groups in my history appear to match the poorness dictated in this thread.

 

[smokebomb]

And on the angular question, you'll need to read up on mils. 1 mil reflects to 1/1000 the distance you are shooting. As in, 100 meters, 1 mil equates to 1/10 meter (10 cm). 100 yards, 1 mil equates to 3.6". 200 meters, 1 mil equates to 20 cm.

Talking about an "iron maiden"... I am not familiar. Is that an upper torso type target? An IDPA type upper torso target is 18" wide x 24" high (NOT counting head). To extrapolate your 200 meter 4" grouping (approx 1/2 mil) out to 1000 meters would approximate a 20" or still approx 1/2 mil group.

So as you see it, a 4" 200 meter group, all else happy, can still net a very high hit count on an upper torso at 1000 meters.
18" x 24" target, 20" group.

My guess is you focused very hard on your long distance shots due to good follow through, wanting to see the impacts. That is your likely culprit in your unexceptional 200 meter results.

 

[chupper]

The maiden is the 12" x 20" version
attached is a pic of 1 of the maidens

I switched and just kept hitting.
No App. I had to correct elevation a few times but once on, I was on.

Those with 308s really struggled at that range. Maybe 1 in 10 hits.

 

[smokebomb]

12" @1000 meters = 2.4" @ 200 meters
If you hit the iron maiden consistently (90-100%), your 4" 200 meter group has oopsy in it.

If you hit it consistently, that was some very good shooting.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

OP,

Here's the bottom line, you have a heavy recoiling rifle. From the time you pull the trigger to the time the bullet exits the bore there is rifle movement which must be made consistent from shot to shot. It's called recoil resistance. When the resistance is not consistent from shot to shot the angle and arc created between line of bore at rest and line of bore at bullet exit will be dissimilar. This dissimilar pattern being angular increases with distance, causing shot misplacement related to the amount of angular divergence. Being cognizant of the elements and factors of a steady position can help you to make recoil resistance more similar than not and reduce shot misplacement from angular error. This is the SECRET to competitive LR shooting. Start thinking about it. How can a bullet go into the hole vacated by a previous bullet unless YOU have a Princess And The Pea position?

 

[RTK]

I agree 100% with all that sterling shooter has said, and the reason for that is, I have experienced everything the OP has gone through over the last 43 years of shooting and hunting, especially with the larger caliber rifles. I can get a "little' sloppy with the pea shooters and not suffer too much, but the hard recoiling guns accentuate ever fault, or at least they do for me.

 

[Night Eagle]

I think you should have your rifle bedded and prob add a muzzle brake