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Gunsmithing Remington 700 blue printing cost

K

kink

Private
Minuteman
Aug 18, 2009
22
0
71
Kissimmee Fl.
Good morning I would like to ask abut blue printing a 700 receiver and bolt. To do it correctly, you would need to sleeve the bolt and terw the raceway which brings the cost of somewhere over $500. I want to know if it would be cheaper to trew the raceway and replace with a kiff bolt, rather than doing all the work on a 700 bolt. Thank you.



Mike
 
Re: Remington 700 blue printing cost

Mike, If you are going to true the action and bolt, and then bore the bolt raceway and sleeve it or replace it with an over sized bolt, you might as well just sell the action and buy a custom action.
 
Re: Remington 700 blue printing cost

As with most questions regarding rifles, what are you going to use it to do? Going to the trouble of bolt sleeving and truing, beyond a more simple squaring of the receiver face to the bolt raceway and chasing the threads for concentricity, would only be beneficial for a benchrest or similar competition rifle. If you are assembling a more field-oriented rifle, a rifle assembled to more generous tolerances would be preferred to assure reliable functioning.

To answer the original question, the more you do to an action and the tighter you try to get the tolerances, the higher the price tag. Check out Gre-Tan Rifles for a reference. Depending on your desired result, a custom action might be more economical in the long run.
 
Re: Remington 700 blue printing cost

Save your money and buy a better barrel. That's where your accuracy comes from.
 
Re: Remington 700 blue printing cost

I would first like to thank everyone here for share their knowledge of gun smithing. I have Remington 700 in a 243 I've been working on and is a little loose in the head space. It is 1.634 so the barrel needs to be set back .002 at the least. Thats what I'm thinking but not real sure. I've been thinking of re-barreling in 7-08 or 260 for a light hunting gun. I've read all I can find on her but didn't know how much I should do to the receiver on a hunting gun. I polared bedded the stock on this gun and a Tikka Ti 3 with all the information I have found on this subject and your help on this site it has made it possible for me to do with a little more confidense and they came out real nice Thanks again, Mike
 
Re: Remington 700 blue printing cost

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HotIce</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Save your money and buy a better barrel. That's where your accuracy comes from.
</div></div>

Plus a good install.

If you're not building a benchrest rifle sleaving the bolt isn't going to gain you anything that you will see in a tactical or field rifle. And if you're going to want to do all that to a factory action save the money, sell the Remington receiver, and then buy a custom action and be done with it.
 
Re: Remington 700 blue printing cost

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: US Handgunner</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mike, If you are going to true the action and bolt, and then bore the bolt raceway and sleeve it or replace it with an over sized bolt, you might as well just sell the action and buy a custom action.

</div></div>
+1

sell it and check out surgeon


Or just have the face trued and have a cut rifle barrel put on by someone like Randy(R&D Precision)
 
Re: Remington 700 blue printing cost

To answer your question, it is cheaper to buy a one piece PTG bolt and true your existing Remington receiver. Trueing the Receiver is done in one setup, and after it's indicated in, the very light cuts take little time to do. Of course none of this means much without a proper barrel install.
 
Re: Remington 700 blue printing cost

I am not at all against building on a nice rem 700 action but the fact of the matter is that the custom action business is seeing new rem 700 clones all the time driving down the prices of these actions. You can buy a stiller predator for 750 bucks or a Lawton 7500 for a little less. It all depends on what you want to do. I am a nobody, but i firmly believe that a trued rem 700 action will shoot just as good as a rem 700 clone, if the barrel work is done properly. I have seen it. But given the choice i will always go with the custom action. I will however buy a used rem 700 action that has already been trued as you can pick them up for around 450 bucks most days. There again another reason to go custom. If your anything like me, you will loose your butt when it comes time to sell the action. I like shooting different rifles and trying new things. Trading and buying rifles is my hobbies. In today's market custom is the way to go. I like Stiller predator actions myself. Again all i am is a fella with a passion for rifles and shooting. I am not a professional in any way!! Take what i say for what it is worth. Happy Turkey day!! Lee
 
Re: Remington 700 blue printing cost

All very good points, but if you already own the 700, it's considerably less than $750 to buy a new bolt and have an action trued. If it's what you have, there's nothing wrong with building on it. I have my own actions as well, but to be fair to the actual question asked, it's still cheaper to go with a new bolt and trued 700. There was no mention in the question about going with a custom action as an option.
 
Re: Remington 700 blue printing cost

The head space needs to be set back on this gun. would the money spent on fixing it is it time to tru and re-barreling rather than fixing the head space.

Also, would like your thoughts on the 260 vs 708.



Mike
 
Re: Remington 700 blue printing cost

My recommendation would be to replace the barrel with a high quality barrel. This would need to be done as the threads on your receiver would be single point cut (trued) as part of the blueprinting process. Typically, a nice barrel is going to be in the area of $300.

Choice of caliber is a matter of what you're going to do with it. Hunting duties, I'd go 7-08. Tactical/Comp would be 260....Both are exceptional....
 
Re: Remington 700 blue printing cost

What Skunkworks said is good advice. Your factory .243 barrel is probably a 1:14 or so twist - to use heavier better performing bullets, you really need a faster twist. Plus, if you do have the receiver trued when the barrel is off and have the threads chased to be concentric with the bolt raceway, they will probably be oversized for the factory barrel. So let's just assume this is a good time to rebarrel.

.260 vs 7-08 is a purely academic exercise as both are excellent rounds and proven performers. As Skunk pointed out, the .260 will have a slight edge as a competition round as the availability of high performance bullets for the .264 is broader than 7mm (although the 7's are catching up). The real advantage the 7 has over the 6.5 is better (longer) barrel throat life.

A nice sporter in 7-08 with say a #4 barrel, fluted, at about 22 inches, shooting a Barnes TSX in 120 or heavier weight, will do just about anything you will ever want a rifle to do.

You are on the right track.
 
Re: Remington 700 blue printing cost

my first question would be, are you gonna shoot at 1000 yrds in competition? if not, why do the bolt? i would seriously take a look at william roscoe @ louisiana precision! also at the end of the day all you have is a remy action! call surgeon and compare prices! hmmmmmmmmmm pretty close in cost, and you get a higher resale value out of a custom action! hope this helps

ps! i just went through this and have a surgeon action ordered, manners GAT stock, kreiger 5r barrel and yes william will be doing the work for me
 
Re: Remington 700 blue printing cost

Even if the rifle wasn't used for 1k comps, there's still plenty of reason to "do" the bolt. You can pay to have a Rem700 blueprinted, replace the bolt with a one piece PTG and buy a Krieger or Broughton barrel for what it costs to buy a Surgeon RSR. Still way ahead of the game. A Remington action certainly isn't perfect, but with the proper blueprinting, it is a capable action and appears to fall within what the interests of the OP are. Is it my action of choice? NO. But it would be impossible to tell the difference between a target shot by a rifle built on a Surgeon and a target shot by a rifle built on a properly "worked" Rem700. Who cares about resale value....

Bottom Line: Custom actions certainly have their place or I wouldn't have my own privately labeled action and neither would William, but when a Rem700 is what you have to work with, why not use it?

If you want a rifle built with better primary extraction, stronger with more rigidity, better extractor than a Remington, longer barrel thread tenon and ultra reliability, go with William or I....I'll actually be releasing some new technology in my actions very soon that I can guarantee will never be seen in a Remington or other custom action unless it is copied....
 
Re: Remington 700 blue printing cost

You mean, it has been proven with actual data, that blue-printing an M700 action helps anything, if not smith's wealth?
 
Re: Remington 700 blue printing cost

<span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">"but with the proper blueprinting"</span></span>

I'm not sure about actual data and wouldn't lead anyone to believe that it exists, but the key word in the above statement is "proper." There are quite a few well known builders on the Hide that do a great job of "blueprinting." I indicate the actions to within .0001" or less before doing any truing cuts and at times have removed a surprising amount of material to square everything. The face, lug abutments and threads are trued in relation to the bolt way and I can say that personally, I've seen a large enough difference to know that blueprinting is worthwhile....
 
Re: Remington 700 blue printing cost

There are those that call "Receiver Blue Printing" squaring the receiver face and lapping the locking lugs. This couldn’t be farther from the truth. When the correct method of receiver & bolt blue printing is employed coupled with a quality match grade barrel install, the end results are very rewarding.

If starting from scratch with nothing in hand, purchase a custom receiver. If you already have a Remington 700 in hand have it blue printed and a quality match grade barrel installed. Skip bushing the bolt or replacing with an after market bolt body and you'll be GTG. If you want that tight of a fit just purchase the custom.
 
Re: Remington 700 blue printing cost

wnroscoe, not to pick on you, but this is like saying "An healthy diet, good exercise regimen, and scratching your forehead once every morning, helps with cholesterol"
smile.gif

We all know for sure about the first two, while the latter is not backed by real data.
 
Re: Remington 700 blue printing cost

I've seen receiver lug abutments out by as much as .005", would that meet your standards? Would you want someone to just lap those lugs if that were your rifle. Receiver threads are rarely concentric and some are even offset and have taper in them.

The only way to address and correct this is by dialing the receiver into the lathe while it’s being held in a specially designed fixture. The bolt raceway is used as the standard and a ground mandrel is used to dial against. Single point truing the receiver in a lathe and tracing all previous cuts made by the manufacturer is the way it should be done.

This is the correct way and is what I was saying.

I don’t see your post as picking on me, my skin is way thicker than that. Like wise I’m not picking on you. I'm just sharing positive information that happens to be correct that may help a fellow shooter make a more informed decision when it comes time for him to purchase services. We should all be glad that there are those that are willing to share their information, it keeps all of us sharp.
 
Re: Remington 700 blue printing cost

I always indicate the action whether it need to be cut or not and cut it if it needs it, if for anything it just makes my life easier when building a rifle and it only makes sense to have everything as straight as possible. Plus you will almost never know if it needs to be trued up until you indicate it up in the lathe anyway.

There are actions I’ve indicated up and found they are very good, and then there are others that are all out of whack.

That being said I have done some pretty scary things to an action just to see what would happen to accuracy. Like having one lug on the bolt way shorter then the other, one lug in the action way shorter then the other, undersize threads on the barrel shank, action face not square, and so on. You would be surprised at what you can get away with and have the rifle still shoot lights out.

Most of were the accuracy comes from is the barrel and the chamber job. Having everything as straight as possible will help in producing a long lasting action, allowing it to wear evenly and keeping the stresses even and all in line. It helps your brass last longer, keeps your throat from wearing unevenly, and so on.

After 20 years of building on the Remington action and its clones I have found there are just some things that are not always necessary in a field or tactical type rifle that you would even see if accuracy was someone’s only bench mark or concern. Just look as some factory rifles that will shoot just as well as customs.

Benchrest rifles are a whole other subject and shouldn't even be brought up, it like comparing apples and oranges.

There really isn’t any true why to say that you absolutely need do this or that to an action to make the rifle shoot it’s best. There are just too many other known and unknown variables that need to be considered.

Truing an action is just done to help eliminate all the known variables that one can and possibly minimize some of the unknowns. But depending on the intended use for the rifle there are some things that are just not cost effective.

Plus one can do all the blueprinting work and add all the high dollar kit the want, if one can’t shoot then all that money is wasted and will not make one a better shot. And trust me there are those out there that think spending all the money they can, on every little thing under the sun, will help them be a better shot when simply getting out and practicing would have been money better spent.
 
Re: Remington 700 blue printing cost

Randy,

I'm the kind of guy that wants it perfect. I'm my own worst critic where this is concerned. I want the tightest tolerances I can maintain, the best finish on the metal when I cut it, the absolute minimum chamber dimensions after reaming and the smallest groups the rifle can print. Knowing that lugs and receiver faces are not perpendicular to the bolt raceway and the threads are tapered or off set doesn’t set well with me. It's way less than an ideal situation for perfection.

What bothers me the most is when guys say things like;

"It's good enough"
"You really don’t need to do that"
"You'll never see the difference"
"That’s a waste of time"

You have your way and your OK with it, I respect you for that. I’ve spoken with you several times over the phone and you’re a great guy, very honest and straight forward. We just see things a little differently where this is concerned, I'm OK with that too. I was taught to build BR rifles first and foremost over hunting/tactical rifles. Building BR Rifles is where I started and is what I was taught to build first. I just brought those practices over to Hunting & Tactical Rifle Builds and I have to say, they're working pretty good. I just know that at the end of the day my machine work will never be suspect, it'll be as perfect as I could have possibly made it and the rifle will be of the highest quality that I could have produced. I will say that the stainless Remington Receivers are usually much straighter than the Chrome Molly ones but, they even need slight cuts made to them to be perfect.

I try very hard to leave nothing on the table where accuracy is concerned. There’s no hype or BS where I’m concerned, no frills, flash or fancy sales gimmicks, just straight up facts and the truth as I know it. If someone is looking for a gunsmith whose views are those of strict practices and demanding expectations of the completed rifle, I’m your man. If you’re looking for someone that says things like “That’ll be good enough” or “You really don’t need to do that” I’m not your man.

The word "Precision" in my business name isn’t a buzz word, it's a cold hard fact.
 
Re: Remington 700 blue printing cost

How much and what kind of work, if any, has to be done on a custom action prior to completing the rifle build?
 
Re: Remington 700 blue printing cost

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LarryB</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How much and what kind of work, if any, has to be done on a custom action prior to completing the rifle build? </div></div>

Larry,

To be honest, I've never put a Mic on a new Custom Receiver. I've just spun the barrel on and off we went. I suspect their GTG as is
wink.gif
 
Re: Remington 700 blue printing cost

wnroscoe, I'm an engineer that I've been taught to ask myself the <span style="text-decoration: underline">factual</span> reasons of investing resources over certain designs. In the same courses, they taught me the concept of over-designing, which was pretty much linked to the former.
If labor and parts would fall free from the sky, then yeah, why the heck not. But in real world this is not the case, so in my books there was printed the suggestion to look at factual data before spilling resources over a certain design.
Match/Premium barrel, we all agree, as <span style="text-decoration: underline">facts</span> are with us.
Blueprinting, a totally shady area, where AFAIK nobody ever supplied <span style="text-decoration: underline">facts</span> that justify the invested resources.
Then there is people that just doesn't sleep well at night if they know their action is not trued to .00001" tolerance, and for them might make sense to invest the $200-$300 for the job.
As always, I'm more than willing to revise my opinion once facts will show me a different picture.
 
Re: Remington 700 blue printing cost

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wnroscoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Randy,

I'm the kind of guy that wants it perfect. I'm my own worst critic where this is concerned. I want the tightest tolerances I can maintain, the best finish on the metal when I cut it, the absolute minimum chamber dimensions after reaming and the smallest groups the rifle can print. Knowing that lugs and receiver faces are not perpendicular to the bolt raceway and the threads are tapered or off set doesn’t set well with me. It's way less than an ideal situation for perfection.

What bothers me the most is when guys say things like;

"It's good enough"
"You really don’t need to do that"
"You'll never see the difference"
"That’s a waste of time"

You have your way and your OK with it, I respect you for that. I’ve spoken with you several times over the phone and you’re a great guy, very honest and straight forward. We just see things a little differently where this is concerned, I'm OK with that too. I was taught to build BR rifles first and foremost over hunting/tactical rifles. Building BR Rifles is where I started and is what I was taught to build first. I just brought those practices over to Hunting & Tactical Rifle Builds and I have to say, they're working pretty good. I just know that at the end of the day my machine work will never be suspect, it'll be as perfect as I could have possibly made it and the rifle will be of the highest quality that I could have produced. I will say that the stainless Remington Receivers are usually much straighter than the Chrome Molly ones but, they even need slight cuts made to them to be perfect.

I try very hard to leave nothing on the table where accuracy is concerned. There’s no hype or BS where I’m concerned, no frills, flash or fancy sales gimmicks, just straight up facts and the truth as I know it. If someone is looking for a gunsmith whose views are those of strict practices and demanding expectations of the completed rifle, I’m your man. If you’re looking for someone that says things like “That’ll be good enough” or “You really don’t need to do that” I’m not your man.

The word "Precision" in my business name isn’t a buzz word, it's a cold hard fact.
</div></div>

I have to echo these exact words....My builds are also about one thing....PRECISION....

I've fired guys in the past for saying things like, "it's good enough," or "you don't really have to do that." Bottom line is, if they want to get away with it while I'm in the shop, I have to wonder what they're doing or not doing while I'm not in the shop. I can't rightfully say that I'm a perfectionist, as perfect people don't exist, but I'm certainly a purist, as what I build will be as close to perfect as possible....

I agree with Roscoe here and I too build Precision Rifles before it's called anything else....

As far as truing a custom action, I've seen most that didn't need it and I can say that my actions manufactured at Defiance require nothing at all....Other customs I've built on were no different in most ways than building on a factory Remington....So my practice is, if it didn't come from Defiance, indicate it in the lathe and check it....
 
Re: Remington 700 blue printing cost

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HotIce</div><div class="ubbcode-body">wnroscoe, I'm an engineer that I've been taught to ask myself the <span style="text-decoration: underline">factual</span> reasons of investing resources over certain designs. In the same courses, they taught me the concept of over-designing, which was pretty much linked to the former.
If labor and parts would fall free from the sky, then yeah, why the heck not. But in real world this is not the case, so in my books there was printed the suggestion to look at factual data before spilling resources over a certain design.
Match/Premium barrel, we all agree, as <span style="text-decoration: underline">facts</span> are with us.
Blueprinting, a totally shady area, where AFAIK nobody ever supplied <span style="text-decoration: underline">facts</span> that justify the invested resources.
Then there is people that just doesn't sleep well at night if they know their action is not trued to .00001" tolerance, and for them might make sense to invest the $200-$300 for the job.
As always, I'm more than willing to revise my opinion once facts will show me a different picture.

</div></div>

You make a valid point here that there are those that find certain things acceptable while there are others that can't stomach the idea. The bottom line is there is no data that supports whether blueprinting works, but there's also no data that says it doesn't. I have an engineering background as well and I can say that blueprinting is the technology for the actions that aren't square and true. Blueprinting has never been the technology looking for a problem, but a solution to what as been a long term problem. That's factual enough for me to offer the absolute best I can offer and one will never talk me into building on anything that isn't square and true. If that's what one is looking for, I have to ask one to find someone else.
 
Re: Remington 700 blue printing cost

Hotice,

First, there’s no ill feelings so don’t take my post the wrong way. If you’re an Engineer I’m sure you paid your dues along the way.

Like I said, there’s different standards for different people. Mine are on the high side, if that’s a bad thing so be it. I’m not changing. If a receiver is out of square, not concentric or perpendicular why leave it in such a state. If all you’re going to do is ring steel then by all means, just screw a barrel on the receiver. The main reason to true a receiver as I see it is this, it helps us achieve perfect alignment between the receiver center line, the bolt body, the bolt raceway, the chamber and bore. If the receiver is straight by all means, leave it alone but, whose definition of straight are we going to use. Who is going to set the standard as to the tolerances we maintain? Who has the final say when saying, that’s good enough?

The class room and text books were great while we were in school but, the real learning didn’t start to happen until we hit the field. I'm well aware of Engineers, I've dealt with quite a few in the last 20+ years in my other profession. The funny thing is most Engineers have under studies or those that have a degree in Engineering Technology of sorts to carry out the actual work. After design the engineer simply makes a token appearance from time to time to see that his design is being adhered to, conducts the Monday morning board meeting, on the phone with clients or in the T box. My statements and practices are based on my own personal observations and experiences. Not what I read on the net or what someone else said. Why would I deliver a substandard product to a customer when I can deliver a much higher quality product. Price or outside influence never will dictate my decisions, practices or actions. My name is on it and it must be the absolute best it can be or I’m not satisfied.

Think about that statement, wouldn’t you like your gunsmith to have that attitude. Is $200 -$300 really the issue when the total rifle cost with glass is over $4000. Wouldn’t you want your receiver to be the best it could be. If I’m wrong for wanting to deliver the best I can, so be it. This is simply the best as I see it, that’s what I’m interested in producing and delivering, no more or less.
 
Re: Remington 700 blue printing cost

There is something to be said for making it perfect the first time. I hate doing work twice so I can understand Skunk and Roscoe striving for perfection everytime, that way you don't have to go back and fix what you had the chance to do before.

On Randy's side, I don't think he was saying that there are things he doesn't do. He did say he indicates every action and checks it. He also said he went so far as to conduct experiments to see what effects accuracy most. He's done work on two of my .308's and built my current 30-06 and all have been lasers.

To me the extra $200-$300 is worth it to make sure I'm going to get the most life out of my action. To some it may not be worth it.

Would you guys say it's worth the extra cost to buy a custom action vs. getting a Rem action and having the work done to it? I've seen Stiller actions for around $800 and these have side bolt release if I'm not mistaken.
 
Re: Remington 700 blue printing cost

wnroscoe, it wasn't my intention to brag on the engineering degree, which matter only up to a certain point in this case.
Nevertheless, wouldn't normal real life logic beg to question if the <span style="text-decoration: underline">externally visible</span> effects of a change, are worth the costs?
 
Re: Remington 700 blue printing cost

Back to the original post... if the factory barrel is shooting accurate enough for what you need, and you're just worried about the headspace, have the barrel set back a couple threads and the chamber recut. A smith should do that for a lot less then the cost of fitting a new barrel. I had a stainless LTR that shot great with some kinds of ammo, and just avarage with others, so I had the barrel set back two threads, a heavy duty recoil lug installed, a vais break threaded on and the chamber recut for my specific load and now its a very consistant 1/2-3/4 moa rifle out to 400 yards... with a factory barrel! All for the cost of a new custom barrel alone. So if it shoots, just have the barrel set back and spend more money on ammo to practice.


To the various professional smiths here- Most of you have the means and the skill to build some rifles that you would need a laser to measure the tolerances. In the custom rifle world, how accurate you want is a direct connection to how much money you want to spend. Not every customer can spend, or even NEEDS to spend the money to achieve those .00001" tolerances on their stick.
Your time is worth money, if you can make someones stick shoot "enough for what they need" in 3 hours or you can make it NASA precision 1000yard 1/4moa in the same 3 hours, then go for the latter, but I doubt thats the case. I think a good smith is one who can listen to a customer and advise them on what the need to do to achieve their goals vs if you have an unlimited budget what dazzling precision can be done.

Just my $.02, but I have steered away from smiths that told me "I cant do anything in that budjet, you need to spend at least twice as much to see any results" and leaned more towards the ones who looked at the funds I had to work with and told me honestly what could be done with what expected results. $500 bucks wont get the camp perry master blaster, but it can make a decent factory shooter much better.
 
Re: Remington 700 blue printing cost

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Onemoretime</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is something to be said for making it perfect the first time. I hate doing work twice so I can understand Skunk and Roscoe striving for perfection every time, that way you don't have to go back and fix what you had the chance to do before.

On Randy's side, I don't think he was saying that there are things he doesn't do. He did say he indicates every action and checks it. He also said he went so far as to conduct experiments to see what effects accuracy most. He's done work on two of my .308's and built my current 30-06 and all have been lasers.

To me the extra $200-$300 is worth it to make sure I'm going to get the most life out of my action. To some it may not be worth it.

Would you guys say it's worth the extra cost to buy a custom action vs. getting a Remington action and having the work done to it? I've seen Stiller actions for around $800 and these have side bolt release if I'm not mistaken. </div></div>

Exactly my point. I never said I didn't check every action and do what's necessary to achieve the best that can become of the action. In fact I did say I check every one. There is more to it then just making it straight for accuracy sake. But the fact of the matter is, whether you like it or not, there are things that are just not worth the cost. Again benchrest and field or tactical rifles are two different issues and bringing over things from one or the other is not always going to work or even necessary.

The OP was asking about sleeving a bolt in a field rifle. This is an old benchrest thing to tighten up Remington rifles to remove every bit of slop they could in the bolt. This is not done very much anymore due to the many custom BR action out there. I and many other builders do not recommend tight fitting bolts in field or tactical rifles for obvious reasons.

So back to the OP question, no if the rifle is a field rifle and is going to see the harshness of field use I don't recommend spending the funds to sleeve the bolt. The OP said it was going to cost $500 to true and sleeve. Take the $500 and sell the action for $400, take the $900 and get a new custom action, more cost affective in my opinion. Sleeving the bolt is not cost affective and in a field rifle the cost out weights the benefit in a field rifle. Experience and results have shown me that.

The bottom line is if the OP wants to spend the funds to sleeve the bolt or replace it with a PTG bolt that's up to him, but I'm going to be honest with someone regarding a rifle build when they are spending their money. If doing something is not going to produce a marked benefit for the intended use of the rifle I will pass that information on to the customer and let them choose whether or not to have me do it or not. Its work for more then 20 years and nobody is complaining about how my rifle builds shoot.

I will also say there are things I have refused to do for the simple fact that what is being requested and knowing the intended use of the rifle the work being requested would lead to trouble down the road which doesn’t make the rifle owner or me happy.

You don't put $4000 dollar Ferrari tires on a family Honda, you just won't see the intended benefit of those tires on a Honda, not cost affective. Same thing goes with rifles and anything else.

Someone wants honest real world opinion and experience regarding rifle building, and won’t take your money just because. Or that just might save you some money and heartache then I’m your guy, if not there are lots of other builders out there that are willing to take your money.
 
Re: Remington 700 blue printing cost

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NYresq</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Back to the original post... if the factory barrel is shooting accurate enough for what you need, and you're just worried about the headspace, have the barrel set back a couple threads and the chamber recut. A smith should do that for a lot less then the cost of fitting a new barrel. I had a stainless LTR that shot great with some kinds of ammo, and just avarage with others, so I had the barrel set back two threads, a heavy duty recoil lug installed, a vais break threaded on and the chamber recut for my specific load and now its a very consistant 1/2-3/4 moa rifle out to 400 yards... with a factory barrel! All for the cost of a new custom barrel alone. So if it shoots, just have the barrel set back and spend more money on ammo to practice.


To the various professional smiths here- Most of you have the means and the skill to build some rifles that you would need a laser to measure the tolerances. In the custom rifle world, how accurate you want is a direct connection to how much money you want to spend. Not every customer can spend, or even NEEDS to spend the money to achieve those .00001" tolerances on their stick.
Your time is worth money, if you can make someones stick shoot "enough for what they need" in 3 hours or you can make it NASA precision 1000yard 1/4moa in the same 3 hours, then go for the latter, but I doubt thats the case. I think a good smith is one who can listen to a customer and advise them on what the need to do to achieve their goals vs if you have an unlimited budget what dazzling precision can be done.

Just my $.02, but I have steered away from smiths that told me "I cant do anything in that budjet, you need to spend at least twice as much to see any results" and leaned more towards the ones who looked at the funds I had to work with and told me honestly what could be done with what expected results. $500 bucks wont get the camp perry master blaster, but it can make a decent factory shooter much better.

</div></div>

Very good point and that is exactly why I do this:

http://www.undergroundsw.com/page7.php

In the "Skunkworked" SPS Rifles, the receiver isn't left as is because I build them all like I would build my own. My complete "Skunkworked" package is $400 and this includes setting the factory barrel back and match chambering them. I can also true a Remington receiver and bolt (or supply a PTG) and supply a custom barrel for less than what the cheapest custom action costs. Not out to take anyones money just for the sake of taking it, but I don't take shortcuts either....My attempts in remaining true to the original OP question are documented above....
 
Re: Remington 700 blue printing cost

I will throw my 02 cents worth for the sole reason that it has been posted above that there has been no evidence that so called "blue printing" an action will make any significant changes in accuracy. I have no documentation other than my experience and my word. I do not do work for anyone other than myself. I have no vested interest other than the fact that I want my rifles to be the best that they can be as William has stated above. I have built rifles on Stiller, Surgeon and Remington actions to name a few. Anyone that says that a Remington receiver can not be made to shoot as good as any of the others mentioned simply does not know what they are talking about in my experience. I have personally seen a remington rifle, right out of the box that did well to shoot a 2 inch group at 100 yards. It was then "blueprinted" and the barrel was set back and a new chamber was recut based off of the old one ( not the best practice as you have to follow the original chamber ). This rifle, a 308 , shot well under 1/2 MOA consistently with the exact same loads, shooter, scope, etc. as used before the accurizing. I did the work myself and can guarantee you that in this instance and several others, have yielded more accurate rifles with little expense. On the flip side of that coin, there have been rifles that shot extremely well to begin with, they were treated to the same treatment and showed marginal if any changes at all. It boils down to this, If it shoots good, leave it alone. If it shoots like shit, accurize it.
This is how I look at it, I can purchase a used Remington action for roughly 300, a new PTG bolt for another 125. I do my own accurizing / truing of the action as well as ream the bolt raceway to .705. The remington receiver with this work is as good as anything else on the market for Tactical or hunting purposes. I have seen these actions consitently shoot in the teens for 3 shot groups with a good barrel and installation job.

I dont know why some of the guys are so dead set on working on a remington actiona anymore, Yes, they need some attention if you truly want a tack driver. Yes, they can be made into a competition rifle but there are other options that would probably be better suited for those needs. No, It does not cost 500 bucks to accurize one if you get a reputable smith to do it. One other added benefit is that someone on a limited budget can do it a little bit at a time and still end up with a rifle that will compete with any of the aftermarket actions that did nothing more than copy what remington started. The only difference is that these companies have found ways with the new technology to hold tighter tolerances from the beginning....
 
Re: Remington 700 blue printing cost

Just to make sure someone does not put alien words in my mouth, I never said that a Remington action cannot be accurate. As a matter of fact, my thoughts are exactly the contrary, and more, since I think that once coupled with a nice barrel, it can shoot plenty accurate w/out the blueprinting in subject.
As for the experiment with the Remington 308 rifle, you said yourself that you re-cut the chamber, and hence re-machined the throat/lands, which turn this into something more than bare blueprinting the action (as chamber and lands machining weighs quite a bit in the overall barrel accuracy).
It'd be real nice if an <span style="text-decoration: underline">independent</span> part (with no personal interest/agenda in the matter), would conduct a sound scientific experiment on this subject.

 
Re: Remington 700 blue printing cost

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HotIce</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
you said yourself that you re-cut the chamber, and hence re-machined the throat/lands, which turn this into something more than bare blueprinting the action (as chamber and lands machining weighs quite a bit in the overall barrel accuracy).
</div></div>

Good point, just like Randy said above.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Most of were the accuracy comes from is the barrel and the chamber job. Having everything as straight as possible will help in producing a long lasting action, allowing it to wear evenly and keeping the stresses even and all in line. It helps your brass last longer, keeps your throat from wearing unevenly, and so on. </div></div>
 
Re: Remington 700 blue printing cost

The only way to do a true test would be to take a stock rem 700 thats a decent shooter <span style="font-style: italic">(maybe a varmint sps in .308 thats consistant for 1 moa)</span>, shoot a handfull of groups for real accuracy <span style="font-style: italic">(5 shot groups, and 5 or 6 of them at each distance of 100, 200, 400yards)</span>. That would give you an idea of the rifles true accuracy. <span style="font-style: italic">Even a broken watch is correct twice a day and 3 shot groups at 100 yards doesnt tell much.</span>
Pull the rifle apart and keep all the atock components, set the barrel back a thread or two and recut the chamber and test fire for accuracy again.
THEN pull it apart and blueprint the action, take another thread off the barrel and recut the chamber. Now shoot the same test groups again and compare real results.

I would be very surprised to see as much of a change between test #2 (setback and recut) and #3 (blueprint,setback and recut). I think the most dramatic group change would come between test #1 (stock) and #2 (barrel setback and a fresh chamber).


Any smiths with some free time and an avarage varmint barrel?
 
Re: Remington 700 blue printing cost

Hello fellows I've been reading up on all of this and I agree with you on quality, parts and workmanship will pay off in the end. I've been working on this rifle for some time now just trying to make it a little better shooter. I bedded the stock, lapped the legs and check the head space. I have a go gauge and I thought I had to much head space, well I had to do a little reading up and it seems 1.630 to 1.640 is all right so I took a filler gauge and cut little piece and put it on top of the bolt face 0.004 which gave me 1.364 so I feel better now. Haven't shot it yet but when I do I'll give you a little report on it. I enjoy working on guns I wish I knew more Thanks for all the good information Mike
 
Re: Remington 700 blue printing cost

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NYresq</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The only way to do a true test would be to take a stock rem 700 thats a decent shooter <span style="font-style: italic">(maybe a varmint sps in .308 thats consistant for 1 moa)</span>, shoot a handfull of groups for real accuracy <span style="font-style: italic">(5 shot groups, and 5 or 6 of them at each distance of 100, 200, 400yards)</span>. That would give you an idea of the rifles true accuracy. <span style="font-style: italic">Even a broken watch is correct twice a day and 3 shot groups at 100 yards doesnt tell much.</span>
Pull the rifle apart and keep all the atock components, set the barrel back a thread or two and recut the chamber and test fire for accuracy again.
THEN pull it apart and blueprint the action, take another thread off the barrel and recut the chamber. Now shoot the same test groups again and compare real results.

I would be very surprised to see as much of a change between test #2 (setback and recut) and #3 (blueprint,setback and recut). I think the most dramatic group change would come between test #1 (stock) and #2 (barrel setback and a fresh chamber).


Any smiths with some free time and an avarage varmint barrel? </div></div>

I haven't performed this to the extent that you describe, but I do shoot every SPS that is sent to me to be Skunkworked. If it shoots, I send it back, untouched. If it doesn't, I Skunkwork the rifle as described on my website and it ALWAYS shoots....This isn't just because of a set back and re-chamber. I agree that the barrel is a large part of the equation to attain accuracy, but it's not the sole part of the formula. If you take a quality barrel and fit it to a crap action without observing precision practices, it will never shoot better than a rifle where these steps have been performed. If that was the case, then everyone with a hacksaw and a pipe wrench would be building rifles and winning matches with them. My own actions are designed and built to provide benchrest accuracy and precision in a package that is reliable in the field and I guarantee my rifles on my actions to shoot 3/8MOA or less. When I build on a Remington, I guarantee 1/2MOA or less. In both cases my rifles shoot in the 0's or 1's and that won't happen without a lot of attention to detail. As far as the OP's question, build on what you have and have someone do it that will guarantee your desired end result. For some reason there seems to be the thought that blueprinting MUST be very expensive. It's not. From my shop, a blueprinted Rem700 with a trued factory or PTG bolt: $425. Krieger or Broughton Barrel: $300. End result from precision build practices: Priceless....You won't buy a custom action for that....
 
Re: Remington 700 blue printing cost

Is that all it takes to gat the barrel off a pipe wrench I've got a couple of those.
 
Re: Remington 700 blue printing cost

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mtg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is that all it takes to gat the barrel off a pipe wrench I've got a couple of those. </div></div>

Effective, but quite harsh
eek.gif
 
Re: Remington 700 blue printing cost

I think my post(s) is more of "how much do you gain by blueprinting more than anything else".

I wasn't saying if it should always be done or if its worth the cost. My point was more along the lines of does it really makes that much of a difference to make it necessaryt. Thats why I posed the test above to see where the most realistic difference would be attained from. If a set back and a chamber cut bring the avarage group down from 1.3" to .78" and then blueprinting brings it from .78" down to .7", it wouldnt seem to really be necessary on anything except the most costly BR guns and precision rifles.
My own thoughts are that a properly fitted barrel with a properly cut chamber would yield more results then taking the fresh cut chamber and barrel that was already properly fitted and then blueprinting the action.

I own a surgeon repeater action with a rock barrel set in a McMillan A5 stock that will shoot through the same hole all day long, but I also have a remington that has had nothing more then a setback and a fresh chamber cut that will still put FGMM into a ragged cluster. I think if I was to have that 700 action blueprinted, it would be very difficult to see much of an improvement over what it does now.

And I am in no way saying any of the smiths in this thread dont have the skill to do so, I have seen examples of many of your sticks from posters here on the hide, I am only questioning if the gain is worth it for 99% of rifles worked on.
 
Re: Remington 700 blue printing cost

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mtg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is that all it takes to gat the barrel off a pipe wrench I've got a couple of those.</div></div>

and some locktite when you put it back on...
 
Re: Remington 700 blue printing cost

Very well said....

I have received rifles that shoot at least .625" and the desire for them is .500". I send them back....That amount can be attained through load development and certainly isn't worth the blueprinting. If you can't do through load development, shoot it til it's dead....
 
Re: Remington 700 blue printing cost

I have that to I whell just need to fill down the back of the barrel a little and it shod be good to go sonud easy for a old truck mechanic thanks Mike.
grin.gif
 
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