• Watch Out for Scammers!

    We've now added a color code for all accounts. Orange accounts are new members, Blue are full members, and Green are Supporters. If you get a message about a sale from an orange account, make sure you pay attention before sending any money!

Removing copper - letting solvent sit!

GBMaryland

Herr Oberst
Supporter
Full Member
Minuteman
  • Feb 24, 2008
    3,805
    3,876
    Maryland, US
    I have this old 375 H&H M70 barrel, and I scoped it for giggles several months ago.

    I was astonished to see just how much copper was in the barrel, I mean like bad... and all throughout the barrel - the full length.

    Basically, like this:

    WIN_20200709_11_21_12_Pro.jpg

    WIN_20200709_11_21_16_Pro.jpg

    WIN_20200709_11_21_40_Pro.jpg


    I let the barrel sit overnight... for two days, and 90% of it now looks like this:

    WIN_20200709_11_21_51_Pro.jpg


    I'm shocked...

    I course, now I'm wondering how to get that last huge amount out!

    Thoughts?
     
    DO NOT USE BRUSH WITH DRILL.

    Wipe Out will work.

    Sweets will work but will rust and pit bore if left for a long time. Wipeout will not do that. Terry Paul (owner of SharpShooter products) has sections of barrel soaking in Wipeout for 20-30 years and no microscopic changes have occurred.
     
    I left barnes cr-10 in a barrel overnight once. That was bad, and I pretty much stopped cleaning barrels after that.
     
    • Haha
    Reactions: 1911hombre
    My dad gave me a 40 year old rifle that looked like it had never been cleaned. I plugged up the barrel and filled it with Boretech overnight. Was brown sludge when I dumped it the next morning...
     
    • Like
    Reactions: 260284
    In the past I bought a lot f old Winchester 70’s. Many Pre War rifles. Some would be almost new in appearance. Eyeballing the bore it looked like it would clean up fine. Once cleaned they would often be very deeply pitted. I bought a bore scope. Looking in the uncleaned bores they would look smooth and sort of blue/green. Copper fouling I think. I learned to avoid those rifles.
     
    @GBMaryland just curious, what did you use to clean it the first time?

    So some additional background:

    This is a 1980s model 70 Winchester push feed action and 375 Holland and Holland magnum.

    obviously there is a lot of tooling marks on the rifling inside this barrel.

    The portion with copper that you’re seeing in the pictures currently are right below the Magna porting and above the magna porting on the rifle barrel.

    I let it soak for two days with a plug at the chamber end in Butch’s bore shine.

    To be fair the very worst fouling is right before the cuts for the porting.

    The rest of the barrel was just a little bit less bad and I did see pieces of metal coming out while I was scrubbing it with a bronze brush after letting it sit.

    I took the muzzle end and put it in a container filled with hops copper remover and we’ll see how that does after two days.

    The action was re-barreled years ago because I wanted to try something out and I’ve had the original barrel sitting in my safe for years
     
    Last edited:
    Due the rifling on that barrel is so awful.... I mean the tool marking on those lands just incredible.
     
    Don't usually let anything sit that long. But since the bar is connected to the gun room, may as well have a drink, maybe pour something neat. Then afterwards I'll scrub and clean it out. Usually does a fine enough job.

    Which reminds me I should probably punch one of my rifles, not going to be used for a bit.
     
    Since I had to stick the magna ported end of the barrel in the copper solvent it’ll be really interesting to see if it takes to finish off too!!


    One of the old gunsmiths around here that I’m buddies with told me that I should put the barrel in the freezer, and then pour boiling water down the barrel so the two metals disassociate
     
    • Like
    Reactions: Winkmeister
    DO NOT USE BRUSH WITH DRILL.

    Wipe Out will work.

    Sweets will work but will rust and pit bore if left for a long time. Wipeout will not do that. Terry Paul (owner of SharpShooter products) has sections of barrel soaking in Wipeout for 20-30 years and no microscopic changes have occurred.

    Brush on drill works the exact same way as a brush in your hand works.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: acudaowner
    Let it sit some more. Then use brush with drill.

    You gotta be fucking kidding. On the other hand, it probably can't hurt the rifling in that barrel much...

    So Sweets is what does it. The shit is made for removing copper fouling from machinegun barrels. It's pure ammonia, well, pure enough. It burns the shit out of your sinuses and it'll wake you right up. You run a few wet patches of that through, let it sit a few minutes, then run some brushes through it, more wet patches, then dry patches.

    Now check it out and see if it needs more.

    When it looks good, make sure you get ALL the Sweets out. Best bet is to blow it out with gunscrub or brake cleaner or some shit, then oil everything down good. Were it me, I'd overdo it on the oil, let that sit and then come back a day later and wipe it down normal.

    Oh, make sure you clean your brushes and shit very well after using the Sweets because it'll eat your copper brushes the same as it eats the copper inside the bore. And any blue or green you see? That's copper and it means you're not done cleaning out either the copper, the residue or both.

    While you're at it, you could also run some JB Bore Paste down there and that'll scrub even more of that shit out making the Sweets even more effective. It also might help smooth out some of those horrendous tool marks too, worth a try.
     
    Brush on drill works the exact same way as a brush in your hand works.

    No it doesn't because the brushes (lightly) thread onto rods that (generally) have ball bearings in the handle. That's so they follow the rifling.

    I've seen "experts" clean weapons with boiling water and a pressure washer too.

    edit:
    So I looked at his video. All my cleaning shit is Dewey and my brushes are made with a copper bristles twisted in a steel loop. When that brush is pushed through properly, it rides the bore. But spinning it would wear out the brush much faster and lets just assume that drill has a "some" runout... Do you really wanna risk that steel loop flopping against the rifling? I don't.

    Just because he hasn't fucked up a barrel yet with his Fudd method doesn't mean he won't sooner or later.
     
    Last edited:
    • Like
    Reactions: Flyin6 and RTH1800
    No it doesn't because the brushes (lightly) thread onto rods that (generally) have ball bearings in the handle. That's so they follow the rifling.

    I've seen "experts" clean weapons with boiling water and a pressure washer too.

    So, the barrel makers were wrong too when he sent them back to have them check out?

    You think a nylon or bronze brush hurts a barrel that a bullet speeds down?? Just because it’s spinning a few hundred rpms? Don’t be ridiculous.
     
    This is why most of the top industry experts and/or shooters rarely if ever post here.

    You assholes come out with your pitchforks and 1970’s fudd opinions.

    Literally just showed you a video of one of the best in the world, who makes a living doing T&E for most every major company out there. And you still say it’s wrong.
     
    Here’s one of the best shooters in the world.......

    Using a brush with a drill. Make sure you email and call him to let him know he’s wrong. FYI, this is the guy places like berger send their stuff to for T&E.


    This is very interesting
     
    This is very interesting

    Pretty much the whole bronze brush will damage your barrel is a myth. Using a brush for a min or two with a drill won’t hurt a thing.

    The same fudds who perpetuate otherwise are likely the same who say “don’t clean until accuracy wears off.” It’s something they heard along the way and keep repeating it.
     
    I can’t imagine why a bronzer brush would be an issue.

    I do use a drill on my large bore shotgun barrels because there’s very little risk of actually hitting the barrel while the things rotating at high-speed and cleaning out the throat or chokes.

    would never do it with a 410 though...
     
    I tried it... in 15 minute increments... as the bottle says not use it longer than that.

    It didn't work as well as Butch's... Sitting for a day.... or two....
     
    I tried it... in 15 minute increments... as the bottle says not use it longer than that.

    It didn't work as well as Butch's... Sitting for a day.... or two....

    I fill my barrels with clr and leave them for a while. Drain and patch dry. Then I use drill and nylon brush with Montana extreme as in the video above. Patch dry.

    Fill with Boretech copper eliminator and let sit. Nylon brush soaked in boretech and drill.

    Inspect with borescope and barrels come out virtually spotless.

    Rods are coated and I don’t let brushes get worn down. There’s never any danger to the barrel.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: Winkmeister
    Where that has been a problem for me... is that the rods are not perfectly balanced... which caused them to hit the bore.

    Now, I did that with a .410 tube set... and royally screwed it up. I called Briley, told them that I was a moron, and they replaced the aluminum tube on my .410 drop in (for my shotgun) for free.

    You have a source for perfectly balanced rods? etc?
     
    Here’s one of the best shooters in the world.......
    When I heard "drill motor," I thought that was crazy. However, I've had the opportunity to shoot with Lou Murdica more than a few times with Santa Margarita Gun Club matches at MCB Camp Pendleton. He is no doubt a phenomenal shooter so if he uses a drill motor, he knows what he is doing.
     
    When I heard "drill motor," I thought that was crazy. However, I've had the opportunity to shoot with Lou Murdica more than a few times with Santa Margarita Gun Club matches at MCB Camp Pendleton. He is no doubt a phenomenal shooter so if he uses a drill motor, he knows what he is doing.

    Oh ya. He doesn’t do shit that will hurt him.

    It’s just not a common thing. And for some reason, when it comes to shooting, people want to hold onto their ways.

    Those of us in the practical/tactical niche fail to realize everything we are “discovering” now......the F class and BR guys knew about 10 years ago. Including cleaning methods.
     
    So let me get this straight:

    -If I clean the ever living shit out of my barrels every range trip and keep them spotless, I'm a Fudd
    -If I don't clean them until them until accuracy starts to degrade, I'm a Fudd

    2 completely different schools of thought with well known experts on both sides of the issue and even though both sides have good arguments if they don't agree with you, they are Fudds...

    Chewing ass because some get on here and dispute claims made by knowledgable people and then turning around and calling everybody who uses a different method a Fudd.

    What am I missing here? Either I need detailed how to instructions on proper cleaning of my barrels that walks the fine line between both camps of Fudds or there really isn't any room for meaningful discussion.
     
    So let me get this straight:

    -If I clean the ever living shit out of my barrels every range trip and keep them spotless, I'm a Fudd
    -If I don't clean them until them until accuracy starts to degrade, I'm a Fudd

    2 completely different schools of thought with well known experts on both sides of the issue and even though both sides have good arguments if they don't agree with you, they are Fudds...

    Chewing ass because some get on here and dispute claims made by knowledgable people and then turning around and calling everybody who uses a different method a Fudd.

    What am I missing here? Either I need detailed how to instructions on proper cleaning of my barrels that walks the fine line between both camps of Fudds or there really isn't any room for meaningful discussion.

    Hey guy...you don't even shoot so you don't need to worry about cleaning 😁
     
    Hey guy...you don't even shoot so you don't need to worry about cleaning 😁

    Yeah but I don't want my barrels wasting away due to that rotten dirty copper fouling destroying my barrels in the safe... But I might actually do them more harm by cleaning them. My Fuddery is leading to my doom... Oh and that one guy whose name I can no longer speak who keeps selling too much good shit too cheap.
     
    Work up loads with CFE223 for the H&H 375 and shoot if you’ve got an action. Much more fun than these other methods.
     
    So let me get this straight:

    -If I clean the ever living shit out of my barrels every range trip and keep them spotless, I'm a Fudd
    -If I don't clean them until them until accuracy starts to degrade, I'm a Fudd

    2 completely different schools of thought with well known experts on both sides of the issue and even though both sides have good arguments if they don't agree with you, they are Fudds...

    Chewing ass because some get on here and dispute claims made by knowledgable people and then turning around and calling everybody who uses a different method a Fudd.

    What am I missing here? Either I need detailed how to instructions on proper cleaning of my barrels that walks the fine line between both camps of Fudds or there really isn't any room for meaningful discussion.
    Wouldn’t sweat it. The amount of times I have listened to people on the internet regarding cleaning amounts to a number that is less than one. Just do what you know keeps your barrels clean.
    I also give sweets a resounding thumbs up. Been using it since I was sixteen and shooting full bore match in Australia. Will probably use it until I can’t shoot any more. I like to wet down a patch with it, run it through the bore when the rifle is still hot from shooting, leave it for about 20 mins and run a clean patch through. Comes out ugly. Also, sweets will foam up quite well with short rapid back and forth strokes, start on the breech end and work to the muzzle and it will get some great coverage and penetration. You would be well advised to pick up a Parker hale style jag if you want to do this.
     
    And if you clean refurbish bring to operational old and or neglected firearms kroil.

    Homade works if you do many and use for any mecanical projects also.

    If it wont break it loose you need heat.

    Been using hoppes products since the late 1960's, no faiures die to them.

    Some one may have an individual product that is better but sorting through them is a pita and not going to risk a failure.

    The critters on my wall loved the smell of #9 and so does my wife.

    I got a cleaning kit once that had another product in it as a gift so I tried it.

    My wife confiscated it trashed it opened the windows and drove to the store to get hoppes .

    Ends that problem of choice right there.
     
    What the Murdi-kite types fail to mention is that a match for Lou is five rounds. He also doesn’t detail what his fouling routine is. Impossible to replicate practically for PRS style matches. His game is formula one and ours is Baja. Not apples to apples at all. Am I supposed to hang a cordless drill and a Dewey rod on my day pack for a match or elk hunt? But, he’s a world record holder so we should all do what he does I suppose. One size does fit all you know.

    Dudes who clean like that probably have an assortment of clay bars in their garage and pull the wheels off their BMW every month to clean and wax the back side of them. Sure they’re free to do it and it looks great, but what advantage does it really provide?
     
    What the Murdi-kite types fail to mention is that a match for Lou is five rounds. He also doesn’t detail what his fouling routine is. Impossible to replicate practically for PRS style matches. His game is formula one and ours is Baja. Not apples to apples at all. Am I supposed to hang a cordless drill and a Dewey rod on my day pack for a match or elk hunt? But, he’s a world record holder so we should all do what he does I suppose. One size does fit all you know.

    Dudes who clean like that probably have an assortment of clay bars in their garage and pull the wheels off their BMW every month to clean and wax the back side of them. Sure they’re free to do it and it looks great, but what advantage does it really provide?

    Cleaning is cleaning.

    The point was when dummies took issue with using a drill on their barrel. Not exactly how lou cleans his barrel.

    The rest of your post is worthless. You can go shoot a match with 250 rnds, clean your barrel down to the steel (doesn’t take long), and it’s back to running the same after a handful of shots.

    You can clean your rifle to the steel, take a few shots to verify zero, go on your elk hunt, and take a collapsible rod on the hunt for emergencies or light patching after rain.

    Has literally nothing to with with using a drill or not.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: Winkmeister
    A buddy of mine specializes in high end shotguns and by default ends up w a lit of high end European rifles. I used to do his coatings work as a side hustle gig. He gets big batches of 20 or so guns every now and then for cleaning from somebody’s Africa camp. Since the real gunsmiths had jobs, I would be invited to clean guns for 50%. That’s pretty good at $250ish per cleaning, if you go fast. I learned pretty fast that big bore guns take the longest. They also tend to have the shittiest barrels. When I can’t get the last copper out of those guns, I turn to these products.
    4EE393DE-A5B4-41E6-B675-28B34B0DE9F4.jpeg
     
    This is why most of the top industry experts and/or shooters rarely if ever post here.

    You assholes come out with your pitchforks and 1970’s fudd opinions.

    Literally just showed you a video of one of the best in the world, who makes a living doing T&E for most every major company out there. And you still say it’s wrong.

    Dude, don't get so goddamn emotional, I'm not attacking you.

    You found ONE guy that promotes this. That's not good enough when every quality mfg. like Dewey or Tipton make rods with free spinning handles and don't make ANY drill related cleaning products. There's probably a reason, because Dewey will make anything.

    We have plenty of experts on here, industry and otherwise as well as some known shooters and you know that. It's an insult to them to indicate otherwise.

    And you could argue I used to be one of 'em. I ran in their circles. I've talked to a lot of mfg.'s and was on first name basis with many. Because we ran the first SDM school, we had to have a cleaning method. We adopted the one most NM shooters were using since we based the school on NM fundamentals to begin with. I still use the same method because it works very well and it can't damage my weapons even if I tried.

    Again, seen a pressure washer with boiling water make a SAW white glove ready. It was CLEAN. But WRONG. It didn't fuck the gun up that day, or even the day after. But over time it would have. I've seen a lot of fucked up shit from improper cleaning methods that some Fudd swore by, almost ALWAYS a shortcut of some kind...

    I tried it... in 15 minute increments... as the bottle says not use it longer than that.

    It didn't work as well as Butch's... Sitting for a day.... or two....

    LIke I said, clean barrel first. Then swab liberally with the Sweets, soak it. Run brushes behind it, just wipe 'em off well because Sweets will eat copper or bronze brushes. Clean out and repeat.

    You don't want the Sweets sitting for too long in one place or it starts to do it's own damage but people have left it in there for much, much longer. Just be smart and safe about it. With as much copper as you have in that barrel, it may take a while for chemistry and brushes to erode that down enough to do away with it. Perhaps trying that freezer/boiling water method is a good idea, I don't know, I do know that'll fuck up some materials.

    Be patient. I don't think I've ever seen fouling so bad before and I'm talking about 240's and SAWs and shit here.
     
    LIke I said, clean barrel first. Then swab liberally with the Sweets, soak it. Run brushes behind it, just wipe 'em off well because Sweets will eat copper or bronze brushes. Clean out and repeat.

    You don't want the Sweets sitting for too long in one place or it starts to do it's own damage but people have left it in there for much, much longer. Just be smart and safe about it. With as much copper as you have in that barrel, it may take a while for chemistry and brushes to erode that down enough to do away with it. Perhaps trying that freezer/boiling water method is a good idea, I don't know, I do know that'll fuck up some materials.

    Be patient. I don't think I've ever seen fouling so bad before and I'm talking about 240's and SAWs and shit here.

    To be honest I was a little shocked myself I mean I haven’t taken a look at that barrel since I took it off the gun probably 15-20 years ago.

    I was in the process of trying to figure out the best way to clean my TRG-42. Then I realized I had this barrel with this issue and wouldn’t be interesting to see if we could get the copper out of it?

    I don’t know if it has something to do with the area around the cuts for the magna porting, or just the awful tooling on that barrel... probably a little of each.