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Removing copper - letting solvent sit!

Does anyone know what happened to the Outers "Foul Out?" At least I think that was what it was called.

It used a chemical, possibly a copper solvent, plugged up breech and a rod down the barrel with an electrical charge applied.

It was supposed to get all the fouling out of a barrel. At the time, it was supposed to be the answer to all cleaning issues of a rifle barrel.

I haven't seen or heard much from that product for quite a number of years. Apparently, it was not as good as they say it was or else it would still be selling.

Anyone have any information on that?
 
Does anyone know what happened to the Outers "Foul Out?" At least I think that was what it was called.

It used a chemical, possibly a copper solvent, plugged up breech and a rod down the barrel with an electrical charge applied.

It was supposed to get all the fouling out of a barrel. At the time, it was supposed to be the answer to all cleaning issues of a rifle barrel.

I haven't seen or heard much from that product for quite a number of years. Apparently, it was not as good as they say it was or else it would still be selling.

Anyone have any information on that?
I recall they discontinued them some years back. I still have mine. Basically it worked as a reverse electroplating procedure that would attract metal fouling from the barrel to the rod. It did work well for the copper and was a Godsend for cleaning lead out of my Sharps.
 
I recall they discontinued them some years back. I still have mine. Basically it worked as a reverse electroplating procedure that would attract metal fouling from the barrel to the rod. It did work well for the copper and was a Godsend for cleaning lead out of my Sharps.

I wonder if there are any DIY contraptions out there that will do the same thing.
 
DO NOT USE BRUSH WITH DRILL.

Wipe Out will work.

Sweets will work but will rust and pit bore if left for a long time. Wipeout will not do that. Terry Paul (owner of SharpShooter products) has sections of barrel soaking in Wipeout for 20-30 years and no microscopic changes have occurred.
A brass brush will not leave the slightest mark on steel. I used to scrub mirror finish, steel regulator housings with a brass toothbrush, and it would leave no marks discernable to the human eye no matter how hard you scrubbed. Brass will not abrade steel, period. I've also never had Sweets pit a bore, and I've left it in overnight on a new to me used barrel, and the Hawyeye showed no damage from at least 20hrs. The active ingredient, as was pointed out, in Sweets is ammonia. Pure ammonia sitting in a plugged barrel works best, and totally dissolves copper, but you Have to get it from chemical supply, as 99.99% of what’s out there is not pure ammonium hydroxide, but has a ton of water and other stuff in it.

It reacts with the copper and creates a water soluble compound. Pure ammonia is THE most effective way to cut copper. If it's really bad put the purest ammonia you can find down the barrel, let it sit for an hour or two, and then brush all the residue out, and then hit it with WD40, not as a lubricant, but as a desiccant. WD40 gets rid of water on metal.

I make my own Ed’s Red and add acetone, Kroil, and Lanolin. I did some small batch experiments with adding pure ammonium hydroxide, and it did not work. There was no reaction, but it made a suspension and wouldn’t incorporate.
 
Wipe out is easy, no worry of hurting anything letting it sit for a day or two.

Recently heard of a .17 cal barrel that stopped shooting tight little groups. Bore scope showed nothing wrong, crown was still good, wtf? Guy cut the chamber off to set everything back. Measured land diameter at the muzzle, .168. Measured it on the breech face, .172. Cut another inch off and the breech end was .171, another inch and it was .170, and one more inch was at .168-.169. Rechambered at it shot great again.

Cleaning rods pushing against the rifling. That's what everyone is guessing. I'm pretty sure rods have always been the reason cleaning does damage, not brushes (stainless steel exempted from that statement).
 
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24 hrs of soaking in Hoppes copper remover didn’t do a whole lot...

but that end of the barrel is pretty damn clean...

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Seems like it go the light stuff in the grooves well...

TIME TO TRY THE SOAK IN SWEETS!!! WOOOOOOT
 
Cleaning is cleaning.

The point was when dummies took issue with using a drill on their barrel. Not exactly how lou cleans his barrel.

The rest of your post is worthless. You can go shoot a match with 250 rnds, clean your barrel down to the steel (doesn’t take long), and it’s back to running the same after a handful of shots.

You can clean your rifle to the steel, take a few shots to verify zero, go on your elk hunt, and take a collapsible rod on the hunt for emergencies or light patching after rain.

Has literally nothing to with with using a drill or not.

You clean the back sides of your rims don’t you...
 
I'll probably catch a lot of grief for this comment but I like to use JB Bore Paste after about 1,000 rounds.

Afterwards I make darn sure that I get every bit of paste out of the barrel. After using it for 30+ years, I haven't seen any problems.

Pardon me while I slip into some comfortable Nomex.
 
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I've used sweets a couple of times. The rifles were taken down to just barreled actions. I used boiling hot water to flush the sweets out. Then sprayed with wd40. Then patched and wiped dry. Then coated with remoil. Then patched and wiped dry. Then lightly coated with remoil.
 
I've heard of people swearing at and by JB bore paste. What is the consensus?
 
Due the rifling on that barrel is so awful.... I mean the tool marking on those lands just incredible.

Looks pretty good (other than the copper deposits) for a factory barrel, actually. Most I've seen are worse, often with the marks in the grooves as well.
 
My cleaning philosophy favors time and solvents over implements and mechanical force.

Like the Scouting Campfire skit, "...Patience, Jackass, patience...)

I also avoid cleaning for the sake of cleaning.

I have no issue with leaving a minimal bit of copper in the grooves as long as there's a light air/moisture oil barrier left to help prevent/reduce electrolytic corrosion.

I worry more about potential mechanical damage from overcleaning.

I had a Rem700 VLS 223 that I would leave foam bore cleaner in overnight, muzzle down. When my buddy borescoped it for the first time; he remarked that the last few inches of rifling 'looked melted'. It still shoots; but not to a genuine match standard anymore.

My SIL loves his hand me down Chuck Rifle now; and I also now own a Teslong.

Greg
 
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My cleaning philosophy favors time and solvents over implements and mechanical force.

Like the Scouting Campfire skit, "...Patience, Jackass, patience...)

I also avoid cleaning for the sake of cleaning.

I have no issue with leaving a little bit of copper in the grooves as long as there's a light air/moisture oil barrier left to help prevent/reduce electrolytic corrosion.

I worry more about potential mechanical damage from overcleaning.

I was a scout master waaaaay back... I remember getting in close to light the kindling... and one of the little bastards had poured in white gas.

Musta not smelled it... 'cause I didn't have eyebrows left....
 
I joined Cubs in 1953, became a Scoutmaster in 1971, Wood Badge Trained in 1974, and finally threw in the Fleur-de-Lis in 2006. One of my top priorities for 35 years, and greatest pleasures, too. Never did my 'Ticket' but probably earned it many times over. The unit took priority over personal awards.

Health, mine and my Wife's, did me (us, actually) in.

We refrained from the 'little bastards' references. ...in public...
 
I attended one of Bryan Litz's seminar last year. He gave an excellent presentation on cleaning a rifle barrel.

Using a borescope and possibly other equipment, he and his team discovered that using a mechanical means to get copper fouling out of a barrel exceeded that of the chemical variety.

If I recall correctly, that surprised Bryan. It surprised some of us listening to his presentation.

Before I left my .22-250 with the gunsmith to get re-barreled, the first 5-10 shots from a perfectly clean bore were 1.5-2 inch groups. It sucked.

However, after the barrel was fouled, it would settle down to 1/2" groups.

I had several thousand rounds to shoot up in a short amount of time because I want to get a 6.5 CM barrel in place of the .22-250. Keep in mind that I would never treat a barrel like this but I don't care as it is getting trashed anyway.

I spent several days recently shooting over 300 rounds a day through that thing. I wasn't shooting like my life depended on it, such as defending a hill in Korea from hordes of ChiCom troops. However, I didn't wait too long between shots either. Doing the math, I was probably shooting with an average of 1.5 minutes between shots or 40 shots per hour over the course of the day.

When the image in the scope got too blurry because of the barrel and suppressor heat, I let it cool for about 10-15 minutes. It was still pretty darn hot after the rest period. That was with a string of 10-20 shots; one right after another.

Until the image got blurry because of barrel and suppressor heat, I was amazed at how accurate that rifle was to it's effective range of about 700 yards.

At the end of the day all I did for cleaning was put bore solvent on the brush of a bore snake and CLP on the tail. Then I pulled it through the barrel one time. BTW, Hoppes recommends that technique; once through the barrel.

Then the next time that I went to the range, the bullets landed where I wanted them to. I was amazed at how much punishment that barrel could take and still hit a steel coyote at 650 yards.

Back when my eyes were better with 20/10 vision, I had a 1917 Enfield with a heavily pitted barrel. Because of a marriage to Medusa, I had to sell the rifle.

Now you would think that a heavily pitted barrel could not hit anything but I use to be able to hit 5" X 7" plates at 300 yards easily with that rifle and ball ammo. It surprised everyone seeing me do it. Heck, I was even surprised!

I say all this because, like women, I don't think we'll ever be able to figure out some of the mysteries of rifle barrels.
 
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I wonder if there are any DIY contraptions out there that will do the same thing.

There have been. The process has its perils. The device configuration and cleaning concoction recipe is crucial.

Bore damage was a genuine concern with homebuilt systems.

I'm also leery of barrel heating. 'Damned Hot' is less precise than this, which is what I use. When the barrel chamber region hits 120-150 degrees, I shut down. It also tells me that my forehead runs about 94-96 dregrees normally.

The point with all of these things is that they tell what's going on outside, but not inside. I'm guessing that the bore/exterior temperature gradients end up ping-ponging.

Greg
 
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I was a scout master waaaaay back... I remember getting in close to light the kindling... and one of the little bastards had poured in white gas.

Musta not smelled it... 'cause I didn't have eyebrows left....

That's one reason the scouts went to gas bottle stoves.

Secondly did you guys not have emergency road flares?
They only stink for a while till burnt off.

Work in a rain storm.
 
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I think you're going to trash that barrel with solvent. Would Not do a soak in sweets. Might use a sweets soaked patch with a little jb paste wiped on it and work it back and forth 10 or so strokes. Then clean it well (several patches) with plain old hoppes 9 (not benchrest).

I don't see what you're gaining by removing every bit of the copper at this point.
 
Boretech Eliminator or some Iosso bore cleaner. I’ve had some bad carbon / copper build up that Wipe Out, Butches, Sweets wouldn’t touch. Boretech Eliminator for the most part has replaced my other solvents. I go to Iosso for the stubborn stuff.
 
So I let it sit in boretech copper remover overnight... primarily because sweets is a very small container and I didn’t want to waste an entire container of it just to see if this is gonna work right (Bore tech is a clear solution by the way):

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That's twelve hours... I'll try sweeties if the next experiment doens't work.
 
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So I found on Amazon some silicon plugs that are varied in size that will plug the barrel perfectly... whereas Midway is charging like 30 bucks for a few of them it’s like $20 for a bag full of these things on Amazon.

I did the lower part of the barrel underneath the magna porting using Butch's Boreshine which actually got all the copper out of that part of the barrel.

On the flipside you can’t plug the magna ported end of the barrel because it’s got holes in it where the magna porting is... so you have to immerse in the entire last 4 inches of the barrel like you see in the picture above.

I've tried that with three different chemicals so far and that amazing amount of copper in that last 4 inches of the barrel just doesn’t dissolve easily it’s gonna take a long time.

i’m surprise the barrel's actually in as good a shape as it is and it’s really more a matter of removing that copper as a test....

 
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That’s clean. I’m sure it’ll need to be fouled back up a good bit before accuracy is returned to normal but clearly long soaks and letting the chemicals do the work is an easy route to go
 
I really just wanted to see that it would take to get a barrel THAT fouled at the end clean.

My TRG-42 had a lesser extent of an issue... and I was able clean that with bore shine. ...and it got VERY clean. So, yeah, that one will require some foulding.

This barrel is just hanging out. I no longer have the action that went with it... Just a good experiment...

I'm sure it would be sufficient for a charging rhino, tiger, bear, or fat chick!

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Cool test thanks for running that.

Like @Strykervet said, my units used too use sweets on mg barrels too. We also used it every couple hundred rounds on our sniper rifles and it always did a nice job. As others have said just patch it dry and get some oil in there after the sweets to protect the metal and you should be good whether you use the Makita powerdrill or rod and elbow grease methods of scrubbing lol
 
What really did it at the end was that I got sick and tired of waiting to see how long it would take.

I warmed the barrel up to about 200° and I took the risk of microwaving the sweets until it was around 200° (The thermometer said 189 when I took it out.)

I then let it sit for about 30 minutes and amazingly all the copper was gone.

The actual problem with doing this is that the ammonia becomes highly volatile to the point where you need to wear an ammonia mask. (That would be a full face respirator with ammonia cartridges…)

Increase temperature increase reactivity....
 
For the record, I've chucked a cleaning rod to a drill. Thought of it myself. And I'm no monument to being a genius :) it's called improvising and we don't have to wait for an "expert" to endorse shit. The expert probably saw or heard of some idiot like me doing it.
 
The drill method with a nylon brush is how I have been cleaning out carbon rings for a few years, now. Every 200 rounds, it gets the drill... and it likes it.

I have done this on 3 different barrels. They still shoot.
 
For the record, I've chucked a cleaning rod to a drill. Thought of it myself. And I'm no monument to being a genius :) it's called improvising and we don't have to wait for an "expert" to endorse shit. The expert probably saw or heard of some idiot like me doing it.

That’s likely the case. But everyone (not just the site) seems to take things a bit more seriously when they see a known entity using it.

I prefer to do things as fast and efficient as possible. So, I can hang my barrel, plug it, fill it with cleaner......load ammo or anything else. Come back, spend two min with a drill and some patches, and my barrel is like new.
 
I have this old 375 H&H M70 barrel, and I scoped it for giggles several months ago.

I was astonished to see just how much copper was in the barrel, I mean like bad... and all throughout the barrel - the full length.

Basically, like this:

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I let the barrel sit overnight... for two days, and 90% of it now looks like this:

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I'm shocked...

I course, now I'm wondering how to get that last huge amount out!

Thoughts?
Are you using a copper solvent ? Or regular solvent ?
Have you ever seen the electronic system for lead and copper removal ? I bought one at a gun show but have never used it .
 
Here’s one of the best shooters in the world.......

Using a brush with a drill. Make sure you email and call him to let him know he’s wrong. FYI, this is the guy places like berger send their stuff to for T&E.



Thanks for sharing this! It was educational.
 
I can’t imagine why a bronzer brush would be an issue.

I do use a drill on my large bore shotgun barrels because there’s very little risk of actually hitting the barrel while the things rotating at high-speed and cleaning out the throat or chokes.

would never do it with a 410 though...
I heard, "stiff nylon brush, I used to use a bronze brush"
 
I heard, "stiff nylon brush, I used to use a bronze brush"

A 10 gauge bronze brush does a much better job on the barrels getting them clean.

In 410 the biggest problem is None of the factory rods are well balanced. They have a tendency to hit the edges of the barrel and damage any aluminum sub gauge tubes...
 
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Very popular with Sporting Clays. Also old Damascus barrel shotguns and see them installed. Back when I was working there Cliff, BP, was trying to get generic Drop in tubes made. Don't recall how long they were sold, I think the "drop-in" had issues
 
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They make full length sub gauge tubes.

it basically converts a 12ga barrel into a 20, 28, 410 barrel.

you knock in these tube into the barrels and it coverts you shotgun into a smaller gauge.

what I do is purchase a 12ga barrel and have them bore it out to make a carrier barrel, and build an ultra light tube set. That tube set weighs awfully close to the 12ga barrel before it was modified. Then, I have another set of of barrels for just 12ga...

i’m currently working that magic for this gun.

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So you have me at a loss.

Don't remember any copper fouling in my smooth bore's.
 
So you seem to be missing the point related to using a drill and brushes to clean the bores of your weapons

My follow up was that cleaning rods attached to drills have a tendency to not be balanced… That in small bore weapons, such as a 410 shotgun you can actually do some nice damage to the bore.

Especially if you happen to have an aluminum barrel… Which is what the person above was kind enough to post a picture of.

In my case I was very fortunate that the manufacturer of the drop in sub gauge tubes replace it free of charge…

I understand that people are using brushes and drills to clean their stuff but they need to be super careful and high speed is probably not how to use it.

On a shotgun, high speed is preferable, as you're trying to remove burnt on plastic from the chokes and forcing cones.
 
Guess we will have to get spin balanced / rpm rated cleaning rods.

Maybe a bore guide?

What next?
 
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So it's funny.... it's the STIFFNESS of the rod, as the center of the rob bows out at speed... and hits the bore. Tensile strength I guess...
 
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Maybe a little less rpm?

I clean while watching TV and have tried to limmit to one gun at a time.

As long as I use hoppes my wife doesn't complain.

Changing brands pissed her off once she threw it away.

I'm figuring the drill motor would not be welcome iether.

It's 100 degrees outside so I'm going to stick to status quo.
 
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Yeah, I’m banned from doing it in the living room.

Had to buy one of these huge air purifiers for the carbon pre-filter to use any of the nasty chemicals.
 
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