Reticle Design and our Disagreements

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  • Jul 10, 2013
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    I, like many, have been frustrated with most reticle designs in the past. Having started to design one of my own reticles, I certainly can understand the difficulty in pleasing every person and every unique situation. However, it was during the first parts of this ongoing design phase that I realized our differences are not typically about how the reticle is built itself, but rather how it fits our purpose and use.

    There are some pretty standard reticle design elements that we all like to see. We may disagree on .25 vs .20 mil hashes, but we don't typically disagree that there should be neat linear spacing in our subtensions. Some of us prefer dots, some crosshairs, and maybe some open, but we all want an aiming point that is large enough to clearly see, but small enough to be precise.

    When we think about designing a reticle, in my mind there are 3 broad categories that should define how this should be accomplished. This post is not merely my thoughts and meanderings but I am genuinely interested if I am on track or not, so hear me out.

    These 3 categories are:
    Dial
    Hold
    Hybrid

    The problem with creating a reticle for everyone, is no one knows how you shoot, what your use case or situation is, along with various other personal preferences. If we break down these three categories, we can really start to fine tune our reticle to the end user. Just knowing which category our end user falls into helps to greatly narrow our reticle design.

    Dial: In this use case our end user will primarily use the turrets to adjust for elevation. This is important, because we can put all of our information on our X axis and the middle/top of our Y axis and we can eliminate unnecessary holds and information that will obstruct our sight picture. A example would be something like the ZCO MPCT 1X reticle.

    Hold: In this use case we don't plan on touching the turrets, so we need turret level information placed inside our sight picture at all areas up and down the x/y axis. This would include wind grids or dots. An example of this type of reticle would be something like a Horus H59 or a S&B gr2id reticle.

    Hybrid: Here we want to do a little of both, but this represents a faster more dynamic reticle with more course values in the sight picture. The priority is on speed, but the option for precision exists, via dialing, if given the time. This would be your DMR style reticles. An example here would be your NF FC-DMX or your EOTECH SR5 style reticles, or, God rest it's soul...the LRHS3 "Gap" reticle.

    Both the dial and Hold reticles are fairly straight forward, and in those we argue about subtension and line sizing, the crowding around our center dot or crosshair, how open the top half of the Y axis is etc. But we mostly agree those layouts follow a particular standard or pattern.

    It is the Hybrid category that I believe gives us the most fits so I would like to focus my own personal thoughts on that area and get a gauge on how others feel.

    For me, a hybrid reticle would be able to fill the following roles: Self-Defense, Dynamic Competitions (DMR, Gas Gun Matches, Run and Guns, etc) and Hunting.
    1. I want a reticle that is usable at the bottom end of the mag range, even if that aiming point is a course "circle" reference. This will aid in low mag fast stages in competition and low light moving shots on game. This can also be accomplished via bright and sufficient illumination.
    2. I want wind holds on the lower left and right sides of the x/y axis.
    3. I want my Y-axis clearly numbered (more on that in a minute).
    4. Personally, my preferred center dot size (if we are not using a crosshair) would be .2 MIL. I have found .25 to work just fine, but preferred it to be a little finer and have found .16 to be great for precision, but a little lacking on speed.
    5. I want exactly .5 mil space around my center/dot or crosshair. At minimum I would need .25 as I feel like the .20 spacing on something like the NF MIL-XT is too tight for the type of work these "hybrid" optics are meant for.
    6. On the Y-Axis, I want no less than .5 mil subtensions. I have found that I even like whole, 1 mil subtensions here. If I want more precision, I will dial, but my brain splits the .5's into .25 very easily and can even "quarter-up" a whole mil spread under pressure with no problem. Spreads of .25 or .20 here tends to scramble my brain under pressure as I look to count the hashes.
    7. In reference to point #3, I prefer the numbers on the vertical to be as tight as possible to the Y-axis, left side preferred (all else being equal we will hold against the spin more often and this pushes the number out of the sight picture). When the vertical is numbered in tree fashion, out beside the wind dots, my eye hunts back and forth to ensure I am holding properly. Numbers along the vertical eliminate this issue.
    8. One final thing I would like to see in Hybrid optics is wind dots throughout the entire x-axis range instead of in a tree pattern. I have had a manufacture ask, "Why do you need 5 mils of wind holds at 1.5 mils of elevation?" The answer to that is simple. In a DMR match with known distances where your targets are at 525, 650, 700 and 900, I like to dial for the 525 and hold the rest.
    These above are simply my preferences, but I would like to hear what others think, specifically as it pertains to reticles in these hybrid optics that run anywhere from the LPVO to the "MPVO" physical design. My preferences assume an exposed and locking elevation turret with a maximum bottom end of 4x and a maximum top end of 16x. What say you?
     
    I just like a .2mil X-axis with a .5mil mark. Sometimes I get lost counting the .2mil fuckers on quick shots. I mostly don't care what the center is because I'm 99% holding for wind. I think Leupold has some clean reticles and the Vortex has a couple. I might actually go for .25 mil hashes in the future.
     
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    The funny thing is, we all "argue" on the minutiae but in reality, most of us who have taken the time to understand:
    What is "wanted" vs. what is "needed" vs. shedding what is "not needed/usable" ACTUALLY agree on nearly all core concepts.

    The sticking points are always where we are forced to make our compromises the companies force us to make.
     
    The funny thing is, we all "argue" on the minutiae but in reality, most of us who have taken the time to understand:
    What is "wanted" vs. what is "needed" vs. shedding what is "not needed/usable" ACTUALLY agree on nearly all core concepts.

    The sticking points are always where we are forced to make our compromises the companies force us to make.
    As I work on this, two things are becoming clear. The first is all the elements are already out there, just not cohesively placed into one reticle.
    Second, a truly fast, legible, usable reticle will look incredibly uniform and boring. It's like the tach guage face in a car. There are many out there, but its hard to beat the readability of simply black letters on a white dial.
     
    As I work on this, two things are becoming clear. The first is all the elements are already out there, just not cohesively placed into one reticle.
    Second, a truly fast, legible, usable reticle will look incredibly uniform and boring. It's like the tach guage face in a car. There are many out there, but its hard to beat the readability of simply black letters on a white dial.

    Agreed. The Tremor kids might not...but fuck 'em :p. Your description of your ideal reticle for the use described is pretty much 100% spot on with what I would request with the exception of #8 (but I understand your point).

    Every time I look at a new reticle, I pull up the PDF and give myself a hold and see if I can efficiently go to that point or randomly hit a point on the tree and see how long it takes me to figure out where I'm at. If I find myself doing a lot of counting...not a good sign.
     
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    A problem with cluttered Christmas tree or grid reticles comes when you're trying to follow your own trace and impact splashes, especially at night with clip-on starlight image intensification. Too much "help" can get in the way of impact confirmation and efficient transition to new targets.

    I don't think it's a coincidence that higher-level performers are walking away (or have stayed away) from more cluttered designs packed to the brim with various cheat code stadia (though useful when having to teach people quickly).
     
    On the Y-Axis, I want no less than .5 mil subtensions. I have found that I even like whole, 1 mil subtensions here. If I want more precision, I will dial, but my brain splits the .5's into .25 very easily and can even "quarter-up" a whole mil spread under pressure with no problem. Spreads of .25 or .20 here tends to scramble my brain under pressure as I look to count the hashes.

    Sounds familiar to me. Good way of saying it. I struggle also with the hashes on alternating sides of the axis, too much attempt at info refinement for my brain, it just perplexes me with "why the F did they think this would help?" questions in my brain.
     
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    On the Y-Axis, I want no less than .5 mil subtensions. I have found that I even like whole, 1 mil subtensions here. If I want more precision, I will dial, but my brain splits the .5's into .25 very easily and can even "quarter-up" a whole mil spread under pressure with no problem. Spreads of .25 or .20 here tends to scramble my brain under pressure as I look to count the hashes.

    Sounds familiar to me. Good way of saying it. I struggle also with the hashes on alternating sides of the axis, too much attempt at info refinement for my brain, it just perplexes me with "why the F did they think this would help?" questions in my brain.

    The only time I've liked it is with ZCO to indicate where the .5 mil is and not clutter the 0.2 stadia. And with that, deliniates where 0.4 and 0.6 are without having to "code" the 0.2 mil stadia in different lengths a la the Gen 3xr.

    What baffles me more is when gaps are added to the x and y axis (outside of the first 1 or 0.5 mil stadia from the center dot). The NF Mil-R abortion is the worst of them all with that bullshit where one needs a full reticle chart to figure out what everything is. It baffles me how so little can become so complicated. They have to go through damn near the whole alphabet :rolleyes:




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    The open space around center works best for my noggin. And otherwise, trees are ok in some scenarios if they don't clutter the overall picture too much. I have used both dialing and the tree in a match, but the times I'd prefer the tree are not as often. I think trees work best for people who have their dope chart in their brain, fast-access. And they don't mind the visual clutter otherwise for their own brain's reasons.
     
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    What say you?
    You have a tall order on your hands.
    Different shooting disciplines always, require a different ret that favors that discipline. The problem most have is they want a do all and try to convince everyone their choice is the best for XYZ shooting. Can one be an across the board,... compromise,... sure it can.
     
    You have a tall order on your hands.
    Different shooting disciplines always, require a different ret that favors that discipline. The problem most have is they want a do all and try to convince everyone their choice is the best for XYZ shooting. Can one be an across the board,... compromise,... sure it can.
    I'm hoping this moves towards a reticle design that turns into three, optimized for each category of Dial/Hold/Hybrid.
     
    Reticles are like woman, none of us can agree on the best, but we can agree on the hot ones. Except Dirty D.

    Anywhoo--I don't want to be a crumudgeon, but it does seem like a fool's errand. What would be interesting is to be to design and order your own reticle, custom for your particular needs.
     
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    The NF Mil-R abortion is the worst of them all with that bullshit where one needs a full reticle chart to figure out what everything is. It baffles me how so little can become so complicated. They have to go through damn near the whole alphabet :rolleyes:
    The MIL-R is actually one of my favorites (as are the MSR and MSR2). You don't have to have a laser.

    It's got mil ranging down to tenths. You can hold five to ten mils over your zero and spot your own splash (with a clip-on at night as well). You have a crosshair for shades and favors.
     
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    I think it also depends on the job. If hunting in the close woods of the southeast and even parts of east Texas, you don't need a lot. A second focal plane with a nice FOV and a simplex reticle or even a small amount of hold-over to 400 yards or so is adequate enough. One proviso. True the reticle to your load. either the old fashion way of making shots or whatever you want. Find out if 200 yards is actually the second hash mark down or is that mark closer to 220 yards, for example. Write that on your DOPE card or memorize it for holdover shots on game.

    When watching the Texas Plinking series, those guys are using FFP scopes, mostly with tree reticles. And they are dialing distance and then holding for wind along the x-axis. Unless the wind is fairly strong. Then, they dial some wind to reduce the amount of hold that is needed. It is easier to hold one target width left than it is to hold one half berm left.

    Even for hunting at closer than 300 yards, I have dialed a 1/4 MOA for a constant 10 mph wind. With a rifle that is shooting a smidge over 1/2" for three shots, I am doggone certain to hit the boiler room on a deer.

    But PRS or other competitions for which I have no experience? I can imagine that you still need some quick solutions.

    But lastly, and most importantly to me, is how does the reticle work with your eye? Never mind how expensive or cheap the scope is. How does the reticle work for your eye? Granted, spend good money on quality work to have good glass and stable mechanical function.
     
    The MIL-R is actually one of my favorites. You don't have to have a laser.

    It's got mil ranging down to tenths. You can hold five to ten mils over your zero and spot your own splash (with a clip-on at night as well). You have a crosshair for shades and favors.

    My brain hates it; sad that it exists and the MLR is gone. It's a red flag to me that the ranging scale is a must.

    I can't process that it's 0.5mil (always have to look and make sure it's not a 1 mil) to the first gap though it looks like more. Then from the far end of the gap to the next stadia is 0.5 mil though it looks shorter. Until I got use to it (and yes, I have owned one in an ATACR before the MilC and XT came along), I'd be 2nd guessing that all the time. Then I think the sequence is 0.2mil of line, 0.1mil of gap, 0.4 line, 0.1 gap, 0.2 mil? This does not bode well for me doing hasty gun number stuff.

    I have little doubt I could use it and work it out in time, but it provides me no advantages and it feels like I'm reading a book that's missing pages. If I find I'm lost or confused, this would not bode well under pressure.
     
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    Dang. I just had an MLR / MLR2 installed just a couple years ago.
    The simple execution of the MLR (as a better version of the gen2 mildot) is something that should have lived on longer and been in more scopes.

    It should have been in the NF 2.5-10 series 2nd FP scopes. I asked Bracken back in the day if they could do a swap but wouldn't
     
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    Non-illuminated TMR superiority!

    Honestly, I am a fan of it and the PR3 reticles from Leupold. TMR for 2-10 and the PR3 for the 3-18 or larger mag ranges. I am a dialer for now and both reticles offer open space to spot trace, splash, and general spotting for other shooters. Big fan of the open center of the TMR. I do not own a PR2 or 3 but the PR2's I've looked through gives me a clean feel.
     
    Non-illuminated TMR superiority!

    Honestly, I am a fan of it and the PR3 reticles from Leupold. TMR for 2-10 and the PR3 for the 3-18 or larger mag ranges. I am a dialer for now and both reticles offer open space to spot trace, splash, and general spotting for other shooters. Big fan of the open center of the TMR. I do not own a PR2 or 3 but the PR2's I've looked through gives me a clean feel.
    I like the PR3 except for the line thickness. Not thick enough for heavy woods IMO.
     
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    I agree with the premise that dialing and holding reticles are more or less sorted out, and the issue is hybrid reticles.
    As I work on this, two things are becoming clear. The first is all the elements are already out there, just not cohesively placed into one reticle.
    Second, a truly fast, legible, usable reticle will look incredibly uniform and boring. It's like the tach guage face in a car. There are many out there, but its hard to beat the readability of simply black letters on a white dial.
    Manufactures seem to have sussed out LPVO reticles for the most part, the issue is really in the MVPO/crossover reticles.
    I agree that all the elements already exist, but more than that many of the reticles from 10 years ago actually meet many of the requirements for a hybrid reticle.

    Trees, visual aids (donuts, illumination etc) are all nice to have but an after thought, this style of reticle it just needs to achieve two things.
    -be visible and usable without illumination at the lowest magnification
    -not be too fat at higher magnification

    So obviously the biggest factor here is magnification range, and lowest magnification.
    With 4x scopes, 2.5-10, 3-12, 4-16 etc, it should be easy to make the stadia the right thickness, and the same reticle thickness is not going to be suitable for all the 3 mag ranges (why manufacturers do this is beyond me).
    Reticles like the TMR, FML-1, LRHS (ignoring the donut) all did this well, or with some fine tuning would be good.

    Hold marks being .5, .25, 2mil would also be determined by the mag range, with a top end of 12x or less I think .5mil is fine.
    12-16x then opens the door for .2mil. but in some ways I think .25mil is better as it keeps the large .5mil holds for lower magnification settings.

    Once you get into lower than 2.5x reticle visibility starts to become and issue, at which point you basically need to add visibility aids.
    The Athlon Helos 2-12 does an ok job of this (outer bars could be a lot fatter, and come closer to the centre) but they then added that massive 10moa centre dot. This dot does absolutely nothing at 2-4x, 4-8x it's ok, but 8-12x it's then unnecessarily large and is now just a hinderance.

    I think 2x low end probably needs a donut to be properly useful, and illumination of this and the centre of the reticle is a plus, but the above Athlon illuminating the whole tree is not that helpful and in low light is just bad.

    Low end magnifaction of 1-2x basically needs to be Dual focal plane, or have diffractive illumination so the illumination is bright enough under 2x. You could just make the outer bars crazy thick and it'd be ok, but you'd then you could end up ruining the reticle at other mag ranges.
    I'm not even sure less than 2x (or even 2.5x) is necessary in a MPVO/crossover scope as most people will run a RDS.
     
    I think it also depends on the job. If hunting in the close woods of the southeast and even parts of east Texas, you don't need a lot. A second focal plane with a nice FOV and a simplex reticle or even a small amount of hold-over to 400 yards or so is adequate enough. One proviso. True the reticle to your load. either the old fashion way of making shots or whatever you want. Find out if 200 yards is actually the second hash mark down or is that mark closer to 220 yards, for example. Write that on your DOPE card or memorize it for holdover shots on game.
    Leupold used to do a firedot TMR reticle in the 2-12 VX6.

    For a hunting rifle used in the woods, or clearings this would be an incredibly nice option (even I do like FFP).
    I guess Fudds didn't buy it as it stopped being an option years ago.
    No idea why you would buy a standard FD duplex over a FD TMR, when the latter gives up nothing but offers far more flexibility.
     
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