Gunsmithing Reworking my Howa, NEWCDI DBM LEVER!

C

crashandburn

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Feb 15, 2005
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tempe
#1
Hi every body! I have just recently done some of my own gunsmithing work and thought I would wite a post with some pictures. First let me tell you a little about myself. My name is Mike, I'm 23, I have attended school for Precision CNC and Manual machining, I have been a shooting enthusiast for about 15 years now thanks to my father and I plan on being a gunsmith when I grow up
wink.gif


NOW to show and tell!

After learning a mouth and a gut full at school and picking my buddy's brain (Keith J. @ AZPRECISION) I had decided to true/blueprint both my Remington 700SA and my HOWA 1500SA. Before I could do this I had to make a few fixtured that would allow me to to indicate the actions off the bolt raceway as well as to indicate the bolt. Chambering will be done soon but thats for another time.

The first jig I made (FAR LEFT in picture). Fits any non-flat based action,Remy,Savage or similar. The second jig(MIDDLE in picture) will fit any non-flat action as well as pretty much any type of bolt.The third jig (FAR RIGHT) will fit most flat bottom action w/ or w/out a integral lug such as the Howa, Mauser or similar.
IMG00026-20110209-1650.jpg


Here is the remington bolt in the spider before/ready for truing
P9100022.jpg

P9100024.jpg

AFTER truing (rear/front of lugs,bolt nose and face)
P9100026-1.jpg

Here is the finished product. Remginton action/bolt trued. It seems as thoughI forgot to get pictures of the action work but...the action was indicated in, lugs,face and threads were trued.
P9100027.jpg


Here is the HOWA1500 and bolt awaiting truing
IMG00025-20110209-1514.jpg

Here is the HOWA set up ready for truing and after cuts were made.
IMG00024-20110209-1349.jpg

IMG00027-20110210-1303.jpg

HOWA Bolt ready for truing.
IMG00028-20110210-1438.jpg

HOWA action/bolt ready for assembly.
IMG00029-20110210-1859.jpg


Thanks for looking!


 
#3
Re: Howa and Remington Action/bolt truing.

Interesting. I keep wondering about what all is needed to true an action after reading the concerns about removing metal from the bolt lugs and the areas they interface on the receiver. Some smiths seem to believe that it will hurt primary extraction if those areas lose metal and that lapping is all that should be done to the lugs.

I also wonder about the bolt face as that seems to be an issue that is debated...

Great work on the action!
 
#4
Re: Howa and Remington Action/bolt truing.

The amount of metal removal is very very minute, were talking .001-.005 @ MOST. All you are really doing is removing just enough to get a clean even surface. It's the fact that all surfaces are cut in relation to one another or cut off the same center line if you will. The action is indicated by going off the bolt raceway where the lug surface, threads and action face can be single point cut. The bolt is then indicated in off the bolt body, keeping sure not to indicate off the bolt head but the body only. Then the front,rear,sides,nose and face can all be single point cut from the same set up. When I insert the bolt in the action I test the lugs for contact which seems impressive compared to factory. Now when I go to chamber my barrel and cut the counter bore, everything will line up strait and square to one another. I don't think lapping is bad but it just improves lug contact. I think there are "perks" to doing it the way I chose to. You may say it creates more risk but as a machinist we should be able to do the extensive work.


The bolt face seems to be the most true thing on the bolt and it most likely doesn't need to to be cut unless installing a bushing for an extractor. I think it looks clean and was easy enough that I chose to do it. I could see where you might provoke potential problems. I installed a factory extractor in the Remington with no issues "feeeeew". The rifle extracts flawlessly. As for the HOWA 1500 I am currently working on the barrel and will post it soon enough.
 
#8
Re: Howa and Remington Action/bolt truing.

Thanks MATT!

@ gregt.
The HOWA was the only one that didn't get the action threads single point cut do to the fact that you can't pick up a metric thread on a lathe with a US standard lead screw (sorry I didn't specify earlier). I just knocked the tips to even them up and to see how far they would even be out. They seemed to be with in .002 . That's all it took to get a continuous cut along the top. I am awaiting a tap mandrel for the HOWA from PTG to convert the threads the 16TPI. Once I have that I will be able to do set backs as I will need to be able to pick up threads on the barrel.

I'll have the pictures as I build. I need to find a new charger for my camera!
frown.gif
I chambered a barrel today but wasn't able to get pictures of it and I wasn't about to hold off.
 
#9
Re: Howa and Remington Action/bolt truing.

Got a few pictures taken of the barrel and lathe set up.

Here is the lathe, a JET GH-13x40 w/ DRO.
DSC01294.jpg

The spider back plate shown with my shilen .308 barrel running through it.
DSC01291.jpg

The outboard spider shown with my barrel extention which goes off the chamber threads when doing crown work. One end of the shaft fits the HOWA chamber threads and the other will soon be machined to fit Remington chamber threads.
DSC01292.jpg

Set up used to indicate the barrel in.
DSC01293.jpg

I'm going to give the barrel a chop to 24" to start and test. More pictures and work to come.
 
#11
Re: Howa and Remington Action/bolt truing.

You local guys need to get into savages so I can have a go to person when I need work done
laugh.gif
looks great and per your write up it seems you really enjoy doing this.
 
#13
Re: Howa and Remington Action/bolt truing.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You local guys need to get into savages so I can have a go to person when I need work done looks great and per your write up it seems you really enjoy doing this.
</div></div>

Smokinace! Soon you will have a local guy doing your savage work
smile.gif


I do love to to do this machine work. I have been shooting for a good while and have talked about "wanting" to be able to build my own rifle for just about as long. It feels good to have come this far and I only hope it goes farther.
 
#14
Re: Howa and Remington Action/bolt truing.

P9100022.jpg


Not to split hairs (please don't take this as a stab) but in machining a good practice is to avoid turning/facing a part more than 2.5 times it's diameter unsupported.

If it were me and all possible I'd revise the fixture a bit and pull that bugger up closer to the chuck. By the looks of it your tool post/insert has plenty of clearance.

Just friendly advise.

Nice job.

C.
 
#15
Re: Howa and Remington Action/bolt truing.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: moore_ man</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The HOWA was the only one that didn't get the action threads single point cut do to the fact that you can't pick up a metric thread on a lathe with a US standard lead screw (sorry I didn't specify earlier).</div></div>

I thought the GH-1340 could cut metric threads?
 
#16
Re: Howa and Remington Action/bolt truing.

It can cut metric threads but you cannot disengauge the thread lever while cutting internal/external threads. To my knowledge you can't "pick up" an exsisting metric thread whith a standard TPI lead screw even if you change the gears to give you the proper metric ratio. In other words, you can't jump into the exact same spot on the lead screw once you disengauge from it.
 
#17
Re: Howa and Remington Action/bolt truing.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not to split hairs (please don't take this as a stab) but in machining a good practice is to avoid turning/facing a part more than 2.5 times it's diameter unsupported.

If it were me and all possible I'd revise the fixture a bit and pull that bugger up closer to the chuck. By the looks of it your tool post/insert has plenty of clearance.
</div></div>

Thanks for the advice. The reason I had so much sticking out is that you need an inch or two to get a good surface to indicate on. You don't want to go off of the bolt head since it's soldered on so you need enough sticking out that you can get two solid locations to go off of behind the solder line. Since the cuts are very very light I didn't think deflections would be something to worry about. As far as I could tell it seemed stable. I could see where if you were making traditional medium/heavy cuts it would be a NO GO under the 2.5X's principle.
 
#18
Re: Howa and Remington Action/bolt truing.

*I could be wrong on not being able to pick them up but I wasn't about to risk cross threading the action since it was my first time.*

I could see how it might work but I havn't tried it.
Back the carrage off the action, turn on the lathe and engauge the half nut lever and allow your tool to move along the outside of the threads with in the action, stop the lathe with the half nut still engauged, move your crosslide and compound to meet the thread, set your Zero, back off the thread, turn the lathe on reverse to allow the tool to back out, creap in to your set zero and start the lathe with the half nut lever still engauged. If that doesn't do then I wouldn't know where to start.
 
#19
Re: Howa and Remington Action/bolt truing.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: moore_ man</div><div class="ubbcode-body">*I could be wrong on not being able to pick them up but I wasn't about to risk cross threading the action since it was my first time.*

I could see how it might work but I havn't tried it.
Back the carrage off the action, turn on the lathe and engauge the half nut lever and allow your tool to move along the outside of the threads with in the action, stop the lathe with the half nut still engauged, move your crosslide and compound to meet the thread, set your Zero, back off the thread, turn the lathe on reverse to allow the tool to back out, creap in to your set zero and start the lathe with the half nut lever still engauged. If that doesn't do then I wouldn't know where to start.</div></div>

That's pretty much how I understand it. Granted I just learned how to do it two weeks ago, but as long as you don't disengage the half nut lever it'll stay on track. Just remember to use a 55 degree tool instead of a 60.
 
#22
Re: Howa and Remington Action/bolt truing.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: moore_ man</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

The outboard spider shown with my barrel extention which goes off the chamber threads when doing crown work. One end of the shaft fits the HOWA chamber threads and the other will soon be machined to fit Remington chamber threads.
DSC01292.jpg

</div></div>

Is that a solid bar? And how long did ya make it?
If solid and long, do you think the weight helps or hinders?
 
#23
Re: Howa and Remington Action/bolt truing.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AZPrecision</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Most Euro/far east threads are 55* me thinks


But Howa may very well be having them made 60*

</div></div>


Metric threads are 60*
Whitworth are 55*

MM threading specs.

Whitworth thread specs

When in doubt, Machinery Handbook is your friend.
smile.gif
 
#24
Re: Howa and Remington Action/bolt truing.

I just got done working on the crown. I finished machining the extension to now fit the Remington 1-1/16x16 TPI and I added some texture in the middle as well. The extension is 10", solid and doesn't seem to hinder the set up in any way in which I could tell.

The extension which now fits the Remington and Howa 1500 threads.
Remington on the left and Howa on the right.
DSC01301.jpg

The extension in the outboard end.
DSC01303.jpg

The crown.
DSC01302.jpg

sitting on the action.
DSC01304.jpg
 
#25
Re: Howa and Remington Action/bolt truing.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AZPrecision</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Most Euro/far east threads are 55* me thinks


But Howa may very well be having them made 60*

</div></div>


Metric threads are 60*
Whitworth are 55*

MM threading specs.

Whitworth thread specs

When in doubt, Machinery Handbook is your friend.
smile.gif
</div></div>


Maybe I thought wrong.

So you say all metric threads are 60* huh? Sorry but I don't trust Wikipedia.


Mike, 10" sounds great. For some reason I pictured it being longer and heavier.
Looks great man. You do nice work.

Post some of your CNC learnings
 
#26
Re: Howa and Remington Action/bolt truing.

Thanks Keith.

I'll post a new thread of some CNC stuff soon. I would like to make a 20MOA rail for the HOWA.

Now All's I need is for the McMillan A5 stock come so I can test this bad boy out.
 
#27
Re: Howa and Remington Action/bolt truing.

Yep, all iso metric threads are 60 degree.

I had to buy a 55 degree thread mill for one job with a whitworth thread and it hurts every time I look at it because I doubt I'll ever use it again.
 
#28
Re: Howa and Remington Action/bolt truing.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Maybe I thought wrong.

So you say all metric threads are 60* huh? Sorry but I don't trust Wikipedia.</div></div>

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">When in doubt, Machinery Handbook is your friend.
wink.gif
</span></span>
 
#29
Re: Howa and Remington Action/bolt truing.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When in doubt, Machinery Handbook is your friend. </div></div>

with out a doubt that book was the most worn out thing in the shop lol.
 
#35
Re: Howa and Remington Action/bolt truing.

Oh maybe it's the set up picture shown with like a foot of barrel sticking out with the range rod running through it. That was a just for a picture and an idea of where the barrel would need to be to work on it if I cut it to 24", notice the circular sharpy line.
 
#36
Re: Howa and Remington Action/bolt truing.

Well I took an older Remginton Factory barrel barrel I had and did some work to it. The barrel is a 1:10 .308 varmint contour measuring 20". I used my nifty extension and ran the little guy through the head stock and cut some 3/4-28 threads to fit an older Badger break I don't use. Now I can use another extension I made to go on the muzzel end so I can now work on the chamber side to do a set back.

In the Lathe!
DSC01308.jpg

Little bit of left over from the extension do to the short barrel.
DSC01309.jpg

Threads!
DSC01311.jpg

Timed and instaled. I timed the baffles to meet in line with the writting on the barrel.
DSC01310.jpg

More to come.
 
#38
Re: Howa and Remington Action/bolt truing.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AZPrecision</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just thought I remembered being taught different. But I must be remembering wrong.
I have never cut metric threads. Havent yet had a reason</div></div>

Metric is 60 deg. Only an old British standard "Whitworth" were 55 deg.

Chad is spot on on that one. ...and that bit of advice about the Machinery handbook too!
The boy knows what he's doing, I worked with him downrange.
 
#40
Re: Howa and Remington Action/bolt truing.

Well I got another project going while I'm waiting on the Howa stock to arrive. I figured I would do some work to an old Yugo M24/47 Mauser I had laying around and turn it into a mountain rifle.
Here is what I have done so far...I stripped the reciever/bolt finish, had AZPrecision bend the bolt handle down,faced the reciever, chased the threads, started sanding on the stock,just recieved a Brownell's pre threaded/short chambered/cont/crowned mauser barrel which is a 1-10 .308WIN, and now I have some things to work with while I wait. I will drill/tap scope base holes,fit barrel and finish prepping the stock on Mon-Tues.

DSC01315.jpg

DSC01316.jpg

DSC01317.jpg

DSC01335.jpg

DSC01337.jpg

DSC01338.jpg
 
#42
Re: Reworking my Howa, Remington and Mauser

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Clark</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mike,
I am 60.
If you want to live as long as me, shorten up on those spider bolts. </div></div>

Amen! I had the same thought.

Boy did I get my ass chewed back when I'd forget and leave a key in the chuck. Long things swinging around the lathe are bad, m'kay?
 
#43
Re: Reworking my Howa, Remington and Mauser

I hear yuh both! Those screws I got were kinda meant to fit any of the jigs I had. ACE hardware didn't have enough of the shorter ones at the time I was looking. I'll get those things changed soon. FYI, I haven't left a chuck key in a lathe yet or the wrench on the mill draw bar (man that makes a nasty sound). LATHE/MILL RULE #1 at school, you cannot let the key or wrench leave your hand until it is set on the table only. SHIT happens I know, I respect and fear the machine.
 
#44
Re: Reworking my Howa, Remington and Mauser

Got my McMillan A5 stock for the Howa! I'm really looking forward to testing this rifle. All's that is left is to torque down the barrel and mount a scope If the rifle shows no issues I will have it coated by Phoenix Custom Rifles and bed it myself after.

Here she is
smile.gif

DSC01344.jpg

DSC01343.jpg

DSC01340.jpg

DSC01345.jpg


And here is the CDI bottom metal. I am not a fan of CDI but no one els makes a DBM at the moment. After some fit and finishing I learned quite a bit about the design, makes me think about making my own.
DSC01341.jpg


thanks for looking.
 
#46
Re: Reworking my Howa, Remington and Mauser

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jetmd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just a quick question, can you explain your feelings in regards to CDI?

Thank-you! </div></div>

I was there fitting that one with Mike.

I also installed a CDI DBM bottom metal into his Remington 700/Mcmillan A4 match rifle.

Had trouble with both.



My personal opinion is that they have design flaws. There are obvious differences between their bottom metal and others. These differences become obvious when they create problems. Im surprised its not talked about more.
 
#48
Re: Reworking my Howa, Remington and Mauser

Both the Howa and the 700 bottom metals have very loose mag to metal fit. Lots of up and down slop, almost twice what Badgers or Surgeons have.

If you push up on the mag it will stop the bolt from running in the 700. In the Howa if you DONT push up on the mag, the bolt wont pick up a round from the mag!

Both in Mcmillan stocks. One inletted by Mcmillan, one by myself.


The latches on both of them feel chinsy. There is a roll pin you are expected to punch out in order to adjust your latch length... good luck with the roll pin guys. They also say you may need to file the top of the latch down to adjust it just right.

IF you adjust the latch just right, it may resolve the main feeding problem that the Howa has. But it wouldn't fix the 700s problem of the mag stopping the bolt with upward pressure. To fix this you have to epoxy a piece of aluminum in the bottom metal like they said to on the phone.

The anodizing or the coating they use comes off easy. Its not even comparable to Badgers anodizing.


And to seal the deal they don't come with a Magazine like the Badgers and Surgeons do so you aren't saving money by buying a CDI either.


I called CDI about my findings and they offered no help. They said to epoxy a piece of aluminum in the latch recess on the bottom metal to stop the mag from being pushed too high.

I told them that Badgers and Surgeons dont have this problem. They said, "Yes they do".
No, they dont though.

He also said something like "besides, youre not supposed to put upward pressure on your mag anyways". To which I replied, "ya but shit happens in matches and this is a match rifle."


Not trying to bad mouth anyone but the differences between CDI bottom metals and seemingly all others are huge. I dont see how they are even close to the quality of Badger, Surgeon, or even Seekins.

...Unless Mike's unlucky and got two bad ones, which I doubt very much.

Im sure Mike would be more than happy to send the 700 one back. The Howa maybe not because its the only DBM offered for Howa and I think we're going to modify it to work.
Id be happy to again state my findings to CDI to try to help them resolve it.


I like to see companies making products that no one else makes. And I think with a couple small modifications they could be as good as the rest.
 
#49
Re: Reworking my Howa, Remington and Mauser

Well put Keith. A couple other findings about the DBM is that if you modify everything to fit and function with a C-products mag the A.I mags dont fit and vise versa, do the the feed lip heights. A.I, badger, seekins and Surgeon don't seem have this problem. This could be changed by machining a proper mag stop in the DBM to catch it befor it rides too high in the mag well.

The latch spring design doesn't work the way it should when you have to move the latch up a knotch. With in the the bottom metal by the trigger gaurd there is a very ver shallow dimple machined for the spring to sit but once you change the latch height by moving it up there is too much angle put on the spring so it doent stay in the shallow dimple any way and creates function problems.

I'll get pictures up asap to show the differences between the CDI,A.I,Badger and surgeon DBM's. As well as the changes that had to be made for the CDI to work properly in my rifles.
 
#50
Re: Reworking my Howa, Remington and Mauser

one more thing! the trigger gaurd is quite a bit thicker than other designs. when inletted for the DBM to sit flush like it should, the trigger gaurd rubs your trigger finger while trying to shoot. I just dont like feeling of anything other than the trigger while trying to squeez. This will go away by relieving the trigger gaurd some.
 
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