Best place for this. having a debate with a buddy, the debate is age of the rifle matters little if the barrel, bolt face and parts are in great shape. not saying my side.
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Discuss
- Thread starter LS6TT
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Re: Rifle age..your thoughts
All depends on how it was put together in the first place....
All depends on how it was put together in the first place....
Re: Rifle age..your thoughts
My favorite is the pre War Mod 70s which are older than I am.
As a side note when I worked for the Army Small Cal Wpns Lab I took a survey and the question was "If you were going to be put in a situation where you could have one rifle, what would you choose?"
Every last guy in weapons engineering said, "1903 Springfield" and they had been out of the system 35 years at that time (1979)
Now one might wonder why 1903. Basically it is a user repairable rifle in the field. Break a striker, replaceable without tools, break an extractor, replaceable without tools, break a trigger (never heard of it) but replaceable without tools. A folding screwdriver was made for them. You can carry all this in butt compartment.
Think about this, you can't do the above with a Rem 700. I understand in Iraq guys were issued a complete extra bolt to carry for the Rems.
Break a stock, possible but not likely. If I were building one for such a "trip" I would replace it with a laminated C stock from Boyds I think. I would also replace the CM barrel with a stainless one to my Swamp Gun configuration and do the Poor Mans Sniper Rifle Scope from another thread I wrote. I would also have iron sights on it as well in case a fall took out the scope. A spare scope could be carried pre zeroed in a PVC plumbing tube with screw off cover on one end.
My favorite is the pre War Mod 70s which are older than I am.
As a side note when I worked for the Army Small Cal Wpns Lab I took a survey and the question was "If you were going to be put in a situation where you could have one rifle, what would you choose?"
Every last guy in weapons engineering said, "1903 Springfield" and they had been out of the system 35 years at that time (1979)
Now one might wonder why 1903. Basically it is a user repairable rifle in the field. Break a striker, replaceable without tools, break an extractor, replaceable without tools, break a trigger (never heard of it) but replaceable without tools. A folding screwdriver was made for them. You can carry all this in butt compartment.
Think about this, you can't do the above with a Rem 700. I understand in Iraq guys were issued a complete extra bolt to carry for the Rems.
Break a stock, possible but not likely. If I were building one for such a "trip" I would replace it with a laminated C stock from Boyds I think. I would also replace the CM barrel with a stainless one to my Swamp Gun configuration and do the Poor Mans Sniper Rifle Scope from another thread I wrote. I would also have iron sights on it as well in case a fall took out the scope. A spare scope could be carried pre zeroed in a PVC plumbing tube with screw off cover on one end.
Re: Rifle age..your thoughts
I'm reading your post as a "safe service life" type question.
The practical answer is age makes little difference.
Things to consider: "modern Steels" are AFTER World War I--say 1920. Before that composition specs and heat treatment varied quite a bit (consider the "low number" Springfield/1903 issue with brittle heat treats)
Rifle history: Care/Corrorsion prevention; High pressure loads;
The first results in easier crack formation and propagation, the latter in higher stress. Higher stress results in increased crack formation and greater propagaion (to the point of failure in one shot).
Fatigue life: Each shot fired is a "fatiuge cycle" on the rifle. Something's going to break after X cycles. Happily for barrels, they're usually shot smooth before reaching a fatigue failure point. How about your receiver or bolt? Many Match rifles are rebarreled four or five times (say 20,000 rounds of .308 Win). They continue safely. The military often puts 30,000 or more rounds through a "gun".
So, practically for the sportsman, your 50 year old Model 70 in .30-06 with 500 rounds on it is likely about the same safety wise as your 7 year old Mo 70 in .30-06 with 500 rounds fired.
Notice we've kept the Brand/Model the same in the hope the material is the same and to the same specs. The chambering the same so Stess levels and Onset rates are the same (but cartridge specs HAVE changed over 50 years...). And we've kept the round count the same to keep the fatigue issues at the same point.
I'm reading your post as a "safe service life" type question.
The practical answer is age makes little difference.
Things to consider: "modern Steels" are AFTER World War I--say 1920. Before that composition specs and heat treatment varied quite a bit (consider the "low number" Springfield/1903 issue with brittle heat treats)
Rifle history: Care/Corrorsion prevention; High pressure loads;
The first results in easier crack formation and propagation, the latter in higher stress. Higher stress results in increased crack formation and greater propagaion (to the point of failure in one shot).
Fatigue life: Each shot fired is a "fatiuge cycle" on the rifle. Something's going to break after X cycles. Happily for barrels, they're usually shot smooth before reaching a fatigue failure point. How about your receiver or bolt? Many Match rifles are rebarreled four or five times (say 20,000 rounds of .308 Win). They continue safely. The military often puts 30,000 or more rounds through a "gun".
So, practically for the sportsman, your 50 year old Model 70 in .30-06 with 500 rounds on it is likely about the same safety wise as your 7 year old Mo 70 in .30-06 with 500 rounds fired.
Notice we've kept the Brand/Model the same in the hope the material is the same and to the same specs. The chambering the same so Stess levels and Onset rates are the same (but cartridge specs HAVE changed over 50 years...). And we've kept the round count the same to keep the fatigue issues at the same point.
Re: Rifle age..your thoughts
very interesting artee (maybe that will make him understand..just gave away my side)
very interesting artee (maybe that will make him understand..just gave away my side)
Re: Rifle age..your thoughts
67 years and still kicking. (CMP Stock, still under construction)
67 years and still kicking. (CMP Stock, still under construction)
Re: Rifle age..your thoughts
Have shot a couple of 1917 Enfields that were surprisingly accurate.
Am not as fond of any unmodified or sporterized 03s that I've shot.
The Model 70s are nice rifles, as were the Model 54s that preceded them.
Consider that countless custom rifles are in use that were built on Mauser 98 actions. Most of those actions are basically the same, except for the bolt being reworked (to turn down the knob), maybe an aftermarket trigger or safety added, or the bolt face opened to accept a larger cartridge.
Have shot a couple of 1917 Enfields that were surprisingly accurate.
Am not as fond of any unmodified or sporterized 03s that I've shot.
The Model 70s are nice rifles, as were the Model 54s that preceded them.
Consider that countless custom rifles are in use that were built on Mauser 98 actions. Most of those actions are basically the same, except for the bolt being reworked (to turn down the knob), maybe an aftermarket trigger or safety added, or the bolt face opened to accept a larger cartridge.
Re: Rifle age..your thoughts
and then....there are those WW2 bring backs.....the "last ditch" ones always peaked my interest.....uh hummmm, the ones that were literally hammered together....
although...as we post this....about 40 years ago this time some president lost his mind to a carcano ....
and then....there are those WW2 bring backs.....the "last ditch" ones always peaked my interest.....uh hummmm, the ones that were literally hammered together....
although...as we post this....about 40 years ago this time some president lost his mind to a carcano ....
Re: Rifle age..your thoughts
I have a long time shooting friend in Florida and a number of years ago he told me he has just shot out his 12th barrel on his pre War 70 and that headspace had increased .001" in 12 barrels averaging 5000 rounds each.
At 6th Army the shop Chief for their MTU told me he had a M14 that he pulled the barrel from at 33,600 rounds.
I have personally observed a 03A3 with no rifling for first 15 inches or so of barrel. He said it was the second barrel on that rifle.
I have seen a Rem 700 with a heavy barrel on it as a test bed and there was no rifling for 3" in front of chamber and it still shot 1.5" at 300.
One of my first 03s had lots of rounds on it and rifling was quite shallow and it still shot 1" at 100.
Actions can fatigue and need to be mag particle inspected with high round numbers.
As indicated there were alot of bad gov't barrels from bad production procedures early on. As well there are lots of bad barrels on P14s (all manufacturers) and there were lots of bad heat treats on P14 actions at the Eddystone plant.
Around here somewhere I have a 03A3 barrel that cracked on proofing but did not open enough to see it and it got past the inspectors as there was no mag particle inspection in those days.
I learned of this by accident from a guy who knew there was a problem with some 03A3 barrels from a gunsmith who purchased them from DCM over the years. He took emery cloth and polished the coating off till barrel was white and the crack showed up very clearly.
I have had a industry type tell me their function fire guns have many many thousands of rounds on them.
Generally gov't weapons have a 10,000 round system life expectation but that is min.
I know Remington designers figured the Mod 66 was a 10,000 round rifle and after they ran one 200,000 rounds they stopped testing.
Gov't accuracy barrels were mounted on 03 actions. The barrels held up 15K to 17K prior to rebarrel. These are the guns the CMP sold a couple years ago.
I have a long time shooting friend in Florida and a number of years ago he told me he has just shot out his 12th barrel on his pre War 70 and that headspace had increased .001" in 12 barrels averaging 5000 rounds each.
At 6th Army the shop Chief for their MTU told me he had a M14 that he pulled the barrel from at 33,600 rounds.
I have personally observed a 03A3 with no rifling for first 15 inches or so of barrel. He said it was the second barrel on that rifle.
I have seen a Rem 700 with a heavy barrel on it as a test bed and there was no rifling for 3" in front of chamber and it still shot 1.5" at 300.
One of my first 03s had lots of rounds on it and rifling was quite shallow and it still shot 1" at 100.
Actions can fatigue and need to be mag particle inspected with high round numbers.
As indicated there were alot of bad gov't barrels from bad production procedures early on. As well there are lots of bad barrels on P14s (all manufacturers) and there were lots of bad heat treats on P14 actions at the Eddystone plant.
Around here somewhere I have a 03A3 barrel that cracked on proofing but did not open enough to see it and it got past the inspectors as there was no mag particle inspection in those days.
I learned of this by accident from a guy who knew there was a problem with some 03A3 barrels from a gunsmith who purchased them from DCM over the years. He took emery cloth and polished the coating off till barrel was white and the crack showed up very clearly.
I have had a industry type tell me their function fire guns have many many thousands of rounds on them.
Generally gov't weapons have a 10,000 round system life expectation but that is min.
I know Remington designers figured the Mod 66 was a 10,000 round rifle and after they ran one 200,000 rounds they stopped testing.
Gov't accuracy barrels were mounted on 03 actions. The barrels held up 15K to 17K prior to rebarrel. These are the guns the CMP sold a couple years ago.
