Rimfire learning a good substitute for big bore?

[boltstop]

My first post here. Been on other boards and have been pulling the trigger for 24 years, but I got a question for you guys...

Is learning calling wind, adjusting scope, bullet drop etc. for rimfire a good way to learn precision rifle at distance?

I went to a "steel dogs" competition this weekend at my new shooting club and placed second out of 6 shooters (yes, I am patting myself on the back </douchebag> ) and am ashamed to admit that I was totally unprepared and totally lost shooting at 15" x 4" dogs @ 400 or greater. Couldn't work the mildot, had no clue, was just putting rounds into the air.

It was like I was retarded <hurrp DherRR> out there. Not sure what happened to the other competitors; they all looked like old hands, but they were puzzling over the calculations like I was, I guess. The young guy who won got 2x my score, and I was about 1.4x everybody else. I've never shot over 200 yards before, and my rifle's new, as are my loads.

Thinking maybe some quality time at the range with my target .22 from 50 to 150 may help me gain a better understanding of what to do with big bore stuff.

Do you guys use rimfire to get better at "gaming out" your long-range work?

 

[Iggy]

Re: Rimfire learning a good substitute for big bor

I'm on the same boat. From what I have read, and I am a total newb, rimfire is good training round, given a good training platform.

I'm in the middle of building a Sako Quad trainer for two reasons. 1) It's cheaper than shooting .308 (even reloads). 2) It's really hard to shoot 200 yards with a rimfire and all the long distance theory comes into play. Or so I think. Someone else with more experience can chime in and hand my ass to me though. Just make sure your trainer matches your "real" shooter (Scope et al).

 

[doc76251]

Re: Rimfire learning a good substitute for big bor

A .22 is great training for specific reasons.

A .22 doesn't duplicate even on a smaller scale any high power round that I'm aware of. It is what it is. For proficiency on your big gun you need to shoot the big rifle at the distances you will compete at and or have a good dope table based off velocity and all the other bits.

What a .22 does exceptionally well is to build a good position w/ natural point of aim, trigger control and follow through. Longer barreled .22's are exceptional for this in that the bullet WILL remain in the tube long enough for you to blow the shot by not having good trigger control and follow through. Air rifles are also good for this.

Depending on your big gun's profile a .22 is sometimes VERY difficult (read that $$$$$$$) to match. I was good when shooting HS-Precision stocked rifles (Remington 513's, 541X's etc.) but finding a .22 stock that imitates a Mac A5 is difficult.

Cheers,

Doc

 

[RTH1800]

Re: Rimfire learning a good substitute for big bor

I agree with what doc said. I would add that IMO matching the exact form of the rifles is irrelevent to most expirenced shooters. I have shot for 45 years and have never had a problem switching rifle to rifle. Never fumbled the safety, missed the bolt etc. I do have a bit of a problem with dials on scopes that are opposite rotations, but I just look at them prior to adjusting. I think most of the guys matching the rimfire to the CF are feeding egos, rather than training. In my opinion, too much emphasis is given to how much aftermarket crap is avaiable for a rifle, rather that just learning to shoot. A good rifle does not need a lot of junk to snap on, change out etc. any more than a beautiful woman needs to be covered in jewells to look hot. If you get a good accurate rimfire and shoot it alot, in an intellegent manor, your shooting will improve, IMO. I would be concerned with weight, balance, accuracy and resale value. Not how many aftermarket stocks and triggers can be fitted. Many older target rifles make great trainers, if you can put your ego aside, Just Shoot. JMO

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Rimfire learning a good substitute for big bor

In addition to what was said above, rimfire will teach you how to read wind on a shorter range. With a 308, wind doesn't really come into play at 100 yards. A wind shift of a couple of miles per hour is not really going to affect your shot significantly. With a 22LR, wind at 100 yards is very significant and at 200 yards is pretty much the entire shot.

In town, the longest range for me is 300 yards. To go longer, I have to drive a significant distance, so I can get more trigger time shooting distance with a 22 than I can full bore.

That said, it is teaching me the dope for my 22, not any other rifle... so shooting 22 makes you really good at shooting 22... it won't make you great at centerfire. I should note that there are a lot of competitive shooters in f-class and otherwise who put in a lot of trigger time with a 22. For these reasons, plus it is cheaper to fire and will not burn up a precious hummer barrel.

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: Rimfire learning a good substitute for big bor

^ carter shoots a mean rimfire, and is tough to beat

but in my experience, in addition to above posts

1. diffinately helps with judging / shooting in wind - on scale
2. helps with shooting position, muscle memory, going through the motions of cycling, making adjustments, trigger work, etc.
3. diffinately more affordable
4. the more closely you can duplicate your centerfire with the stock, weight, etc., the more the rimfire practice pays off.
5. gets you used to using those mildots and other fancy reticles more proficiently.
6. has taught me more patience on taking shots, better controlled breathing and such.

participating in rimfire matches helps out with competeing in centerfire as far as getting familiar with competion mind games you tend to play with yourself, and reduces that pressure to perform.

when taken seriously, the rimfire gets you in the frame of mind of what to do when confronted with different scenarios that may choke you up with the centerfire and gives you some confidence that if you can do it with the rimfire, certainly you can do it with the centerfire. although the rimfire can't completely replace centerfire practice, it has enough benefits to pursue further, and economically.

IMHO, it is not only is more affordable, but shows up any shooting flaws with more visibility, especially in shooting form, by staying at more accessable shorter ranges.

so since i've been tinkering with the .22 heavily over the last 2 years, i thought i'd send some .308 down range to see if there was improvement.

beginning of last year, was averaging 5 shot groups with the .308 at 100 = just under -1". this year .6" (outside measurement)

beginning of last year, was averaging 5 shot groups with the .308 at 200 = -2". this year 1.5" (outside measurement)


the same goes for all distances up to 550 yards where i start going above MOA. improving my 5shot centerfire groups by .25 to .75 inch or more.

seems all that affordable shooting with the .22lr paid off better than i thought, and by approaching the .22lr in a serious manner (rifle, ammo, and technique) has paid off in the centerfire arena.

i know it's been talked about before, just wanted to throw in 2 more cents, and will probably be doing more rimfire stuff in 2010 than ever before. alot of folks ask me why i'm "playing" with the .22, that i should stop playing with "toys" and go back to the "real thing".

looks like playtime paid off!

related topic .22 to .308 conversion (simulation) chart:
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1330910#Post1330910

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Rimfire learning a good substitute for big bor

I simulate 200yd C/F with a .22LR R/F on a 1/2 size target at 80yd. I figured the TOF as the same, and that's what I base my distance equivalences upon. I think the .22LR's dispersion over the same time is a little more in MOA, so the target MOA is a little larger. Still working on this, but that's what I have so far. For calculation purposes, I assign std velocity 40gr RN target ammo as .130BC and 1070fps at the muzzle.

Greg

 

[boltstop]

Re: Rimfire learning a good substitute for big bor

TONS of great help here, guys. Thanks so much! Will have to get out to the range this weekend and work on my skills some more.

I'm a pretty good shot, and I'd be even better if I could understand how the mildot works! ;-)

 

[Lindy]

Re: Rimfire learning a good substitute for big bor

Try these:

http://www.excaliburenterprises.com/scopes/mil-dot.html

http://www.shootingvoodoo.com/index.php/articles/maximizing_the_mil_based_reticle/

 

[darkstar]

Re: Rimfire learning a good substitute for big bor

Every good shot I have ever placed with a cf rifle has been due to the time I have spent shooting rf. I spend most training time in rf not because its cheaper, i actually like it and all the challenges that come with it.

I agree with rth1800 and curtis. Ultimately, rf is just plain demanding on all fronts. Accept the demands of rf and you will grow from the experience.

I dont see the need for exact replication of all hardware externals or variables, but, knock your self out (and your wallet...)

I do like to see some of those "over the top" rigs you guys build though. Enjoy them.

Oh yeah, if any of you burn out on those wild ass aics rigs you put together, let me know as i have a 308 waiting for a "drop in".

 

[kansas45]

Re: Rimfire learning a good substitute for big bor

For me, the rim fire rifle has been a great learning/training tool. I am only in my 2nd year of shooting longer ranges with a center fire & the .22 has helped me develop a good cheek weld, & with mounting my scopes for better eye relief. My breathing has improved & my shooting position is much better, especially in prone. Loading the bi pod is important also. I spend a lot of time with my rim fire rifle. I find that the more I shoot the .22, the more relaxed I am with the center fires. It has definitely helped me.