Rimfire suppressors for a PRECISION rifle *not a RUGER PRECISION RIMFIRE*

jbell

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    I would like to start a conversation about suppressors on a precision rimfire rifle, I DO NOT mean a Ruger Precision Rimfire (they are not a precision rifle). What I am talking about is a no limits custom built bolt action rifle chambered in 22lr shooting the very best ammo made like Lapua Midas, Center X, Eley Match or Tenex. These rifles I am speaking of are true 1/4 MOA rifles, capable of consistently shooting in this range or better.

    Who here has actually tested various rimfire suppressors on such platforms to see their effect on accuracy? I am not worried about POI shift from can on to can off as long as it is repeatable. I do understand that each rifle will be effected slightly differently due to the harmonics and how the extra weight at the muzzle will effect that but you should be able to tune that with the ammo (different brands and different lot testing).

    What suppressors are you finding work well in this application and what suppressors are not?
     
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    deltawiskey

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    Excellent question jbell!
    I run a SilencerCo Spectre ii on my rifle, unfortunately I have nothing to compair it to.
    Its an awesome can with very little FRP, however it seems like my groups are a bit better without it...
    I'd love to see a test of rimfire cans that's based on accuracy results rather than sound measurements!
    DW
     

    Geno C.

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    Thing about super accurate guns and suppressors. As in any weight added to the barrel, it acts like a tuner. That can be a problem it the weight of the thing you added, changes. Rimfire cans are adding weight with every shot. Now that being said, I’ve shot the smallest groups of my life shooting a suppressed 22. I was using my cheap and light YHM mite qd. A qd!!!! I also have a tbac 22 takedown and it is quiet with less frp but it is heavier. That comes with it not being made of aluminum. The draw back of aluminum is it can’t be cleaned in the same easy ways that stainless or titanium cans can be. Therefore it makes it more difficult to maintain a given weight.

    A rifles that shoots a certain ammo great without a can will not necessarily shoot the same ammo well with a can. You have to start from scratch when testing ammo.
     

    jbell

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    Thing about super accurate guns and suppressors. As in any weight added to the barrel, it acts like a tuner. That can be a problem it the weight of the thing you added, changes. Rimfire cans are adding weight with every shot.

    A rifles that shoots a certain ammo great without a can will not necessarily shoot the same ammo well with a can. You have to start from scratch when testing ammo.
    Yes, I understand this and agree completely. But this question is more directed towards the design of the suppressor lending itself to accuracy or hurting it.
     

    MysizeisMAGNUM

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    Another member and I did some rimfire testing in Texas last month and came to the same conclusion with 2 different brand cans and 2 precision built custom .22's.

    Rifles used in testing, Vuudoo Bartlien and Custom CZ455 with lilja barrel, both rifles capable of shooting .2's.
    Suppressors used TBAC takedown and SAS Tolerance full titanium model.
    We used various top tier ammo, R50, Center X, etc.

    Short story, the suppressors effected accuracy in all of the testing, period. Another issue we found was after dissembling the suppressors to clean, POI shift happened when resembled. We were able to shoot some impressive groups while shooting suppressed however it was definitely not as consistent as shooting unsuppressed. Groups opened up from .2-.5'' to .7-1'' when shooting suppressed vs. unsuppressed. We tested at 50 and 100 yards.

    Both setups showed nearly identical results, I'll continue shooting the rifle suppressed, but it wont be when i'm trying to shoot for precision work.

    I wish I had the time to give this the formal write up it deserves...
     

    Geno C.

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    Yes, I understand this and agree completely. But this question is more directed towards the design of the suppressor lending itself to accuracy or hurting it.
    My mite is a mono core and the tbac is a baffle stack. Both have shot equally small groups.
     
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    Strykervet

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    Well, I don't know if it means anything but I have an integrally suppressed Pinnacle 2 10/22 (Kidd receiver, guts, Liberty suppressor cut into a Green Mtn. NM bbl.). It's pretty damn accurate for what it is, 4" of barrel left and all, 1MOA or so. Not like you're talking though, it's claim to fame is how quiet it is. But I was wondering if monocore suppressors in general help with this because there's nothing that can move or change alignment. The core, and thus the suppressor, threads directly onto the barrel in one solid unit. A Liberty Regulator is only 3 pieces, a core, a sleeve and a rear end cap. No tools needed for cleaning either. No baffles, no movement.

    Because the bullet is moving in front of the gasses, I'd imagine the only things affecting accuracy would have to do with the integrity of whatever is hanging off the barrel. But that's just my guess.

    And if you were to make it integral, to core out a bull barrel .920 or larger, and insert the monocore baffle stack in there and use an ordinary end cap, then the suppressor is part of the barrel itself and even more solid. It doesn't have to be a 12" stack like the Pinnacle 2 either. A 6" monocore would do just fine.

    I have no way of confirming it or testing it against other cans, I have another .22 can but it's a Liberty also just like the Regulator and Pinnacle 2. They make good .22 cans I tell 'ya! But they're all accurate FWIW, none of them degrade and POI shift is repeatable and minimal. Super light too.
     
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    Geno C.

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    My mite is only 2 pieces. The core is actually part of the front cap. I don’t think it’s movement that cause the changes in accuracy. It’s the weight change if the can (tuner) hanging off the end of the barrel
     

    jbell

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    I am curious as to how air volume and the change of the air in the suppressor after the first round effects these light weight slow moving very low BC bullets. Meaning the air pressure, and air flow in a suppressor changes from shot to shot. What does this do to a 22lr? I would be willing to bet that may have a lot to do with accuracy across a string of rounds.
     

    MysizeisMAGNUM

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    Well, I don't know if it means anything but I have an integrally suppressed Pinnacle 2 10/22 (Kidd receiver, guts, Liberty suppressor cut into a Green Mtn. NM bbl.). It's pretty damn accurate for what it is, 4" of barrel left and all, 1MOA or so. Not like you're talking though, it's claim to fame is how quiet it is. But I was wondering if monocore suppressors in general help with this because there's nothing that can move or change alignment. The core, and thus the suppressor, threads directly onto the barrel in one solid unit. A Liberty Regulator is only 3 pieces, a core, a sleeve and a rear end cap. No tools needed for cleaning either. No baffles, no movement.

    Because the bullet is moving in front of the gasses, I'd imagine the only things affecting accuracy would have to do with the integrity of whatever is hanging off the barrel. But that's just my guess.

    And if you were to make it integral, to core out a bull barrel .920 or larger, and insert the monocore baffle stack in there and use an ordinary end cap, then the suppressor is part of the barrel itself and even more solid. It doesn't have to be a 12" stack like the Pinnacle 2 either. A 6" monocore would do just fine.

    I have no way of confirming it or testing it against other cans, I have another .22 can but it's a Liberty also just like the Regulator and Pinnacle 2. They make good .22 cans I tell 'ya! But they're all accurate FWIW, none of them degrade and POI shift is repeatable and minimal. Super light too.
    I think it would help by preventing POI impact shift after cleaning, my experience has been suppressed shooting has effected my groups in all my testing. Testing has been nothing scientific and has been just two decent shooters trying to better understanding our equipment (gear listed in above post), but if I'm shooting match heads or squirrels in the eye at 50 yards and beer is on the line I wont be shooting my rifle suppressed.

    Hope this helps.
     

    MysizeisMAGNUM

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    I am curious as to how air volume and the change of the air in the suppressor after the first round effects these light weight slow moving very low BC bullets. Meaning the air pressure, and air flow in a suppressor changes from shot to shot. What does this do to a 22lr? I would be willing to bet that may have a lot to do with accuracy across a string of rounds.
    This is the type of thinking we had, but we're too redneck to articulate it... LOL
     
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    jbell

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    It’s quite possible that the lead build up could change the air flow
    Yes I agree, so in theory it is a sliding scale as to the effect. It is a very interesting concept to ponder on and one that may be very difficult to test.
     
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    NorthWesterner

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    It’s interesting how many of you are seeing less accuracy with a can. I wouldn’t have guessed that. I want to run one for the convenience factor of not wearing ear pro. This makes me consider not using one.
     

    MysizeisMAGNUM

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    It’s interesting how many of you are seeing less accuracy with a can. I wouldn’t have guessed that. I want to run one for the convenience factor of not wearing ear pro. This makes me consider not using one.
    It would really depend on what you're trying to achieve, my .22 suppressed will produce dime sized groups at 50 all day long. However if I want to produce a one hole group or doing dot drills the suppressor comes off.

    I'm not saying our rifles were unable to produce a great group suppressed, I'm saying that suppressed it was harder and less frequent. Again talking about a half inch or less at 50 yards. Matches I've shot .22 in, this will make a difference.
     

    jbell

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    This is all excellent information! Thank you all so far!!

    I would love to get some suppressor manufacturers involved in this discussion.
     

    Hoser

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    A suppressor can act like a tuner, after all your hanging a bunch weight on the end of your barrel. That is why I do lot testing with my cans attached.
     
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    Hellbender

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    Right when the bullet "uncorks" the barrel the gases actually travel faster than the bullet (actually could/can get well in front of the bullet) and I believe the design (esp. the first blast chamber) could affect the bullet.

    Lots of different designs in the way the suppressors handle the gas. I have both monocore (Sparrow) and clipped baffle design (Spectre II) and I'm looking forward to experimenting with both.

    I also wonder how aligning all the clipped sections of the baffle stack (like Silencerco reccos, I presume for best noise reduction) vs. maybe alternating them in different ways may affect accuracy.

    I know a poorly aligned/designed muzzle brake can affect accuracy on a centerfire rifle.
     

    NorthWesterner

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    It would really depend on what you're trying to achieve, my .22 suppressed will produce dime sized groups at 50 all day long. However if I want to produce a one hole group or doing dot drills the suppressor comes off.

    I'm not saying our rifles were unable to produce a great group suppressed, I'm saying that suppressed it was harder and less frequent. Again talking about a half inch or less at 50 yards. Matches I've shot .22 in, this will make a difference.
    I will be competing in nrl22 matches with mine. So this is a huge factor.
     

    Tiger_Shilone

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    Only tested this theory on one rifle, a CZ455 tacticool with a factory 16.5" barrel. Adding a Sico SpectreII shrank groups sizes at both 50 and 100yds compared to just a thread cover. I ran this rifle for 2 years of ARA 50yd benchrest matches using a front/rear bag combo, the second year suppressed for all matches. Third year onward was shot off a 1 piece rest. Also used in a monthly 35-200 yard steel belly game. Different brands of ammo produced various sized groups (pay more $, get less vert. dispersion) but was able to get .400-.500" groups on average at 50 with the suppressor vs. .400-.700" with just a thread cover. These groups are usually 5 or 10 round groups and almost always have a flier regardless if the suppressor is on or off, this flier problem mostly disappeared when I got the Vudoo. 22 ammo is consistently inconsistent. I've averaged shooting 2 cases of 22 ammo a year now for the past 4 years and come to the conclusion that all grades/brands of 22 ammo suck in comparison to quality centerfire ammo.

    I've shot that CZ quite a bit over the past 6+ years with the last the last 4 years being suppressed full-time as I do believe it shoots better with the suppressor mounted. I did switch over briefly to a sparrow monocore for one range session but did not have good results and went back to the spectreII. Don't have the data but remember being very disappointed that it liked one can over the other.

    Another quirk I found with suppressors and that CZ, how it was threaded on made a difference in group POI shift, not group size but just the POI shift. I used to just thread it on hand tight and take it off by grabbing the stock and hand twisting it off. Taking it off was always harder than putting it on, usually by a significant factor. This may sound stupid, but I think twisting it off with one hand on the stock and the other on the suppressor would shift the barrel in the receiver or the whole receiver assembly in the stock enough for a POI change as the POI shift was never consistent with where the group went. Sometimes it was 3 oclock, sometimes 11 oclock other times at 6 oclock. Every time I took the suppressor off/on it required a zero session to establish the new POI group relocation. I now use a padded jaw pair of pliers to grip the barrel just aft of the threads to screw the suppressor on/off and I don't have this random POI group shift anymore. I do that for all rifles that I direct thread a can onto now.

    Right now I'm not using .22 suppressors on any of the matches where I have to put the rifle in a vertical rack between strings of fire. The crap that falls back down the barrel from the suppressor baffles onto the bolt face is real. Is it truly a problem? Don't have an answer yet, but it bothers me in the back of my mind. I'm anal retentive enough to think it could be affecting accuracy so the mind games begin and I get distracted.


    I also wonder how aligning all the clipped sections of the baffle stack (like Silencerco reccos, I presume for best noise reduction) vs. maybe alternating them in different ways may affect accuracy.

    .
    Done that, found no practical difference in group sizes at 50yd. Tried half of the stack in a SpectreII opposite of the others, mixed em up , alternating up/down, and rotating spiral. Got tired of taking it apart at the range as I didnt see any changes, roughly 200 rounds of SK+ for that test off bags on a concrete bench. Now I just line the cut-outs up after cleaning. The cut-outs on the cups are supposedly to set up a tuned internal saw wave noise canceling effect in the can. I noticed no difference in sound report, but my ears are not lab equipment either
     

    Hellbender

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    Tiger....You just saved me 200 rounds of ammo! LOL!

    Did you ever try a shim under the thread seating surface and rotate the entire can 180 degrees and see if the POI was different?

    I could see possibly more effect with a monocore with that experiment.
     

    TBACRAY

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    My CZ will shoot sub MOA with Rem Subs and Power Points at 100 yards with a 22-TD on it. But once there is a little wind it gets very hard to do. Those little bullets get pushed around pretty easily. We have a couple guys in shop that send rifles off for lot testing for best accuracy. They are sending out two now. When they come back with the best lots we will test suppressed verse what the lot testing provided.

    Your threads and shoulder better be very very good. When threads are off on centerfire cartridges it causes an issue I would expect it to be more noticeable with the little bullets.
     

    LRdasher

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    These rifles I am speaking of are true 1/4 MOA rifles, capable of consistently shooting in this range or better.
    1/4 MOA would be 0.125" at 50 yards. If you could average 0.125" at 50 yards that would be a world record according to NBRSA.

    Back to the topic at hand. I have shot my Vudoo and CZ455 with Lilja barrel at 50 yards with and without my suppressor. Using Center-X and Eley Match I did not see a difference in group sizes. For reference both guns would average just under 0.5" at 50 yards shooting off bipod
     
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    jbell

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    1/4 MOA would be 0.125" at 50 yards. If you could average 0.125" at 50 yards that would be a world record according to NBRSA.

    Back to the topic at hand. I have shot my Vudoo and CZ455 with Lilja barrel at 50 yards with and without my suppressor. Using Center-X and Eley Match I did not see a difference in group sizes. For reference both guns would average just under 0.5" at 50 yards shooting off bipod
    I never said I could do it, I said the rifle is capable. I know my limits and they become apparent well before I can reach the rifles. Which is the point of this thread. I am interested in suppressor design and its effect on the rifle's capabilities and if anyone has actually tested it. I have a lot of time and money invested in the very best rifles (for my style of shooting) available today and the last thing I want to do is attach a device on them whether it be a sub par scope, scope mounting system, or suppressor to take away from them. I am fully aware that rimfire ammo is a big variable in this game and is one which we do not have very much control over. Also I will be the first to admit that I am the #1 limiting factor in realizing the full potential of these rifles & I am working on improving that. But when it comes to determining the things I can control that may take away from the rifles potential I feel it is imperative to identify those things and eliminate them from the system. Only when that is done can I truly start assessing and attempting to improve on the biggest detractor from the rifles I shoot, me.

    Thank you for your input. What suppressor are you using on your CZ & Vudoo?
     

    LRdasher

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    Understood, was not implying anything about your shooting. Just saying I have never seen or heard of a rimfire that consistently shoots 1/4 MOA.

    I am using a Spectre II.
     

    Sieg

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    I use a Tactical Solutions Axiom and always assemble it with baffles indexed in the same way after cleaning. There is a shift in POI using the suppressor but it is consistent. Regarding accuracy, my Vudoo's group size doesn't appear to be impacted anymore than the constant human variable. My .17HMR is exceptionally accurate using the same suppressor.
     

    rth1800

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    A suppressor introduces multiple variables in a critical location . It can only be detrimental to accuracy.
     

    missed

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    I have a Dead air mask in jail now, looking forward to what it will do. I do have F1 stamps to build a couple, just no time. I'm really hoping to find a good supressed solution for my Vudoo and the kids CZ.
     

    natdscott

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    A suppressor introduces multiple variables in a critical location . It can only be detrimental to accuracy.
    In theory. And yet, in practice, it does not seem to show up, provided all work is done with a critical eye on quality and precision.
     
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    LeftyJason

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    I am curious as to how air volume and the change of the air in the suppressor after the first round effects these light weight slow moving very low BC bullets. Meaning the air pressure, and air flow in a suppressor changes from shot to shot. What does this do to a 22lr? I would be willing to bet that may have a lot to do with accuracy across a string of rounds.

    Something tells me the movement depends on the design. No idea how the most common cans direct things but the video shows lots of different designs from one company. No I don't understand how it all works.
     

    padronanniversary

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    hey j, I had that last rifle i bought off you in the aics threaded as a reference.

    cans i have used on it:

    spectre 2, axiom, tabac, sr silent, sparrow. i have a few more in pergatory I’m waiting on, should be interesting how the dead air and a cans are.

    i can tell you the ones I have with first round pop are effected more, primarily being the last two. the first three are very consistent in terms of grouping.

    i can say this, i have locator marks on barrel for the spectre and axiom, and poi does shift if not aligned.... but they are consistent, ie spectre off by 1/4 turn all group is different from position 0.
    I have also noticed the groups tighten up a tad, .1-.2 after a clean can is dirty 100-200 ends
     
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    jbell

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    hey j, I had that last rifle i bought off you in the aics threaded as a reference.

    cans i have used on it:

    spectre 2, axiom, tabac, sr silent, sparrow. i have a few more in pergatory I’m waiting on, should be interesting how the dead air and a cans are.

    i can tell you the ones I have with first round pop are effected more, primarily being the last two. the first three are very consistent in terms of grouping.

    i can say this, i have locator marks on barrel for the spectre and axiom, and poi does shift if not aligned.... but they are consistent, ie spectre off by 1/4 turn all group is different from position 0.
    I have also noticed the groups tighten up a tad, .1-.2 after a clean can is dirty 100-200 ends
    How is that rifle shooting for you? Are the extractors I made still working well?
     

    jbell

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    Good to hear. I have been playing with them a bit lately and really like the V22! I highly recommend them.