Ruger SFAR chewing brass

[doubloon]

Based on your attitude, I going to suggest contacting Ruger.

Not sure what "attitude" you're talking about. The "attitude" that I like my guns to work correctly or the "attitude" that I don't suffer people who spew advice and platitudes without actually attempting to understand the issue.

Either way, thanks for the suggestions. I have already contacted Ruger as has the OP of this thread who appears to have eventually been told by Ruger to go suck eggs. Probably because of his "attitude" expecting a gun to work properly. So I'm not getting my hopes up.

Anybody who's interested in picking up a AR10 that works "1000%" the way it's supposed to and prints some pretty decent groups with a variety of ammo this one may be available for a bargain soon.

 

[doubloon]

Picked up an sfar . Hopefully I won’t have some of the cycling issues others have had but put a cmc trigger in it already.

Does anyone know if say a proof or other brand barrel will fit?
Also it looks like these may prefer 165 or 180 grain bullets?

165 and 180 printed the tightest groups from my 20" SFAR, I haven't started looking for aftermarket barrels yet

 

[Twinsen]

There are some who are buying the 20" just for the rifle length gas, then cut and thread to 16". Same handguard for both.

Mine's at the smith. Gonna try 16" rifle gas. Unsure if it'll work, because reports are the gas port is huge.

I bought a 16", fired it 5 times suppressed. I used gas setting 1. Rifle unlocked early, destroyed all five pieces of brass, malfunctioned all 5 times. Magpul stock, buffer tube, lower receiver, scope, and charging handle were destroyed. I asked for a 20" replacement and Ruger shipped it right out. I also notified them the midlength gas system was unsafe. I did so because the engineers that design these things somehow don't know what we do.

Fine bud enjoy your chewed up brass. It’s not like I’ve owned a dozen ar10s or anything. Fuck do I know lol.

Sounds like you know how to put up with guns that unlock too early instead of understanding what's wrong with them. There are people that show up to their job five days a week, work eight hours, do so for 30 years, and are bad at it the entire time. Experience does not equal competence.

Unlocking early is dangerous. Case head failure isn't acceptable. Bolt head erosion is dangerous. Filling an action with brass shavings will lead to malfunctions.

I'm absolutely fed up with people giving positive reviews of busted designs or cluelessly overlooking dogshit. It has screwed me out of thousands of dollars.

There's a reason the dude thanked you for your opinion and asked for no more of it.

Also, Ruger has said this rifle is for full bore 308 Winchester ammo. Mine absolutely ate itself with weak M80.

 

[BCP]

Mine's at the smith. Gonna try 16" rifle gas. Unsure if it'll work, because reports are the gas port is huge.

I bought a 16", fired it 5 times suppressed. I used gas setting 1. Rifle unlocked early, destroyed all five pieces of brass, malfunctioned all 5 times. Magpul stock, buffer tube, lower receiver, scope, and charging handle were destroyed. I asked for a 20" replacement and Ruger shipped it right out. I also notified them the midlength gas system was unsafe. I did so because the engineers that design these things somehow don't know what we do.



Sounds like you know how to put up with guns that unlock too early instead of understanding what's wrong with them. There are people that show up to their job five days a week, work eight hours, do so for 30 years, and are bad at it the entire time. Experience does not equal competence.

Unlocking early is dangerous. Case head failure isn't acceptable. Bolt head erosion is dangerous. Filling an action with brass shavings will lead to malfunctions.

I'm absolutely fed up with people giving positive reviews of busted designs or cluelessly overlooking dogshit. It has screwed me out of thousands of dollars.

There's a reason the dude thanked you for your opinion and asked for no more of it.

Also, Ruger has said this rifle is for full bore 308 Winchester ammo. Mine absolutely ate itself with weak M80.

My larue Predatar occasionally made those marks, my DPMS SASS did too, so did my Aero, and my PWS, I suppose all of them were "built wrong" lmao. Bunch of retards up in here.

 

[msgriff]

Mine's at the smith. Gonna try 16" rifle gas. Unsure if it'll work, because reports are the gas port is huge.

I bought a 16", fired it 5 times suppressed. I used gas setting 1. Rifle unlocked early, destroyed all five pieces of brass, malfunctioned all 5 times. Magpul stock, buffer tube, lower receiver, scope, and charging handle were destroyed. I asked for a 20" replacement and Ruger shipped it right out. I also notified them the midlength gas system was unsafe. I did so because the engineers that design these things somehow don't know what we do.



Sounds like you know how to put up with guns that unlock too early instead of understanding what's wrong with them. There are people that show up to their job five days a week, work eight hours, do so for 30 years, and are bad at it the entire time. Experience does not equal competence.

Unlocking early is dangerous. Case head failure isn't acceptable. Bolt head erosion is dangerous. Filling an action with brass shavings will lead to malfunctions.

I'm absolutely fed up with people giving positive reviews of busted designs or cluelessly overlooking dogshit. It has screwed me out of thousands of dollars.

There's a reason the dude thanked you for your opinion and asked for no more of it.

Also, Ruger has said this rifle is for full bore 308 Winchester ammo. Mine absolutely ate itself with weak M80.

the relationship between powder/powder charge/projectile weight/chamber pressure/MV and the effect on port pressure can be tricky. This chart, although somewhat flawed, shows some data that I have found interesting.

 

[Twinsen]

My larue Predatar occasionally made those marks, my DPMS SASS did too, so did my Aero, and my PWS, I suppose all of them were "built wrong" lmao. Bunch of retards up in here.

That's correct. They were built wrong.

the relationship between powder/powder charge/projectile weight/chamber pressure/MV and the effect on port pressure can be tricky. This chart, although somewhat flawed, shows some data that I have found interesting.

Good point. Could be a faster powder in my weak m80.

 

[Evintos]

If the rifle is unlocking too early because it has an excessively large gas port diameter relative to its dwell time and the agb doesn't restrict the flow enough, increasing buffer weight is the next solution. I believe the SFAR ships with a 3oz CAR buffer. Increase to H3 (5.4oz) on AGB setting 1.

You basically increase the reciprocating mass so that the excessively high gas energy has to push a heavier object.

Edit - if it still unlocks early after the increase to H3 buffer weight, the solution becomes one or a combo of the following, restrict gas flow more (new AGB with more restrictive settings), increase mass (switch to A5 buffer systems with heavier than 5.4oz buffer), decrease dwell time (the distance from gas port to end of muzzle, shorter dwell = less time for gas to follow back to the BCG before bullet "uncorks" the barrel and gas flows out the muzzle).

Edit 2 - I wouldn't be surprised if Ruger reused some of their leftover SR762 (discontinued large frame AR) barrels for the SFAR. This would explain the excessively large gas port diameter.

 

[doubloon]

the relationship between powder/powder charge/projectile weight/chamber pressure/MV and the effect on port pressure can be tricky. This chart, although somewhat flawed, shows some data that I have found interesting.

<interesting.jpg>

Impact of dwell time?

I haven't finished reading it but this thread over on 308AR is interesting as well.

Gas tubes, barrel gas ports, and buffer weight

This might end up as a long thread, but it shouldn't be too long. It's a lecture, or a sermon, depending on how you look at it, and I'm not looking for feedback on what I'm about to say. I'm publishing information. In reality, it's pretty damned simple, but manufacturers are making it difficult f...

forum.308ar.com

 

[doubloon]

decrease dwell time

This is on the ToDo list. I'd like to get it tamed at least a little bit in the right direction before committing to the chop. If Ruger CS leaves me out in the cold a new agb was on the list to try. I'll try a heavier buffer before I f*k with the spring because that makes more sense.

Current challenge is Ruger provided a 0.725" love bump right behind the threaded muzzle and made the barrel ~0.698" ... not a problem if you don't want 5/8x24 with a sturdy shoulder and a warranty from the smith.

 

[doubloon]

... glad to hear this. Sorry. ... my 16" SFAR. ... trashed brass even with my powderpuff 150 grn blasting load. This is after a return to Ruger, who provided me a new barrel.... Same brass issue has been occurring with both barrels.

No need to be sorry ... unless ... do you work for Ruger? were you on the design team? ;-)

Yeah, I don't see how softer loads "fixes" this problem. Next step down is plastic training rounds but it's probably overgassed even for those.

Evintos by far makes the most sense for an approach to try to actually fix the issues with this rifle ... new gas block, new buffer, reduce dwell time. I don't know that I can see a way out of this without changing the spring too but he makes enough sense in one single post that I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and go rep other posts he's made just because.

If I had a 16" SFAR and Ruger was jerking me around with BS "fixes" I'd be looking into relocating and resizing the gas port as one of the changes to make but you have to deal with that love bump at the muzzle so it would mean some kind of clamp on block.

 

[doubloon]

The Ruger online service form was less than responsive but I just got off the phone with a nice lady at Ruger CS who agrees all OTS 308/7.62 ammo should be safe to use in the SFAR and primers should definitely not be popping out on any setting.

Got a shipping label from her to send it back to the mother ship. The adventure begins.

 

[Triton225]

I'm also sending mine back today. Ruger CS IS GREAT. But I'm afraid the fix is gonna be a redesign by researching this topic. I don't think my gun is gonna be a redesign by ruger unfortunately. But I'll wait to see what they say/do this time.

 

[BCP]

I'm also sending mine back today. Ruger CS IS GREAT. But I'm afraid the fix is gonna be a redesign by researching this topic. I don't think my gun is gonna be a redesign by ruger unfortunately. But I'll wait to see what they say/do this time.

The first pics you posted were horrible but if it's just "shiny spots" with lighter loads they will probably tell you that it's normal by their standards. I don't know what your load data is but mine are typically LC brass, 41-42gr TAC/Varget/4895 and a 150 or 168gr bullet. Anything more than that and your brass starts to get a little "chewed up" didn't matter if it was my PWS, my Larue, my POF rifles, whatever. The hottest loads I ran in my AR10s and M1As/308 GARAND were M118LR duplicates like 43gr RL15, 175smk, LC or FC brass and 2.810" length. Brass usually went 2-3 loads.

 

[doubloon]

I'm afraid the fix

I have hopes because the lady on the phone clearly said all OTS ammo should work in this gun and didn't even attempt to feed me any bullshit about loads being too hot. Maybe more people are sending rifles back for similar problems and they're getting the message. They already tweaked the regulator on the 16" but I don't see how that alone is going to solve all the problems.

I don't see a complete redesign being helpful to me unless they're willing to replace all the parts involved which *might* require a new buffer, spring and gas block at a minimum ... maybe a new barrel with a new tube length. I don't see how they can do much to the bolt itself because the design is restricted by the size of the lower.

I'll be including one of the cases that popped a primer and if I make the time for it I'll section at least one of those cases to look for stretch marks inside before I ship it.

 

[Gtscotty]

I have hopes because the lady on the phone clearly said all OTS ammo should work in this gun and didn't even attempt to feed me any bullshit about loads being too hot. Maybe more people are sending rifles back for similar problems and they're getting the message. They already tweaked the regulator on the 16" but I don't see how that alone is going to solve all the problems.

I don't see a complete redesign being helpful to me unless they're willing to replace all the parts involved which *might* require a new buffer, spring and gas block at a minimum ... maybe a new barrel with a new tube length. I don't see how they can do much to the bolt itself because the design is restricted by the size of the lower.

I'll be including one of the cases that popped a primer and if I make the time for it I'll section at least one of those cases to look for stretch marks inside before I ship it.

Let us know when you get it back if they actually did anything, and if it helped.

 

[doubloon]

Let us know when you get it back if they actually did anything, and if it helped.

100%

I took measurements off the regulator so I'll be able to tell if anything on the regulator changed.

I haven't weighed the buffer or even looked at it very closely but I figure I can weigh it when it gets back and somebody will tell me if it's different.

I can scope the barrel and should be able to tell if the port size changes by comparing to the previous picture.

And, of course, I still have all the same ammo to try.

 

[doubloon]

I find myself to be all at the same time puzzled, pleased and a little perturbed at the results of today's SFAR experiment.

Went to a nearby indoor range to do some tests because it was easier to work it in while running errands than packing for a day of accurizing at the club range.

I added a weird twist just for fun, don't know what it proves but it's numbers so there's that.

The SFAR is in the condition as returned from Ruger after service

There are still definitely some scrapes and some imprints in the bases but the lugs are virtually brass chip free. The brass itself also looks 90+% better than it did before the service. Annotated brass picture at the end of this lengthy and boring post.

I ran 4 rounds, one on each regulator setting, with a naked muzzle, the factory brake and suppressed with the old Liberty Freedom then most of the rest of the box suppressed with the regulator set on 1.

It ran flawlessly except for the two rounds shot unsuppressed on regulator setting 1, they did not eject but that was the expected result.

The #2 regulator port is bigger now than it was when I measured it new out the box but everything else is the same. And yet ... different results. I don't know if it was widened by Ruger or if it just eroded that quickly.

They did say they replaced the bolt and now I wish I'd spent more time taking measurements on the bolt because I believe this is the only known change to the original build but I don't know exactly what they changed. So what could they have changed on the bolt?

I still think it's overgassed but it seems obvious from the results today that there was something fundamentally wrong with the bolt ... I just don't know what.

I plan to run it as-is for a while and check for regulator erosion and brass chips for a while. I still plan to replace the gas block eventually and play with tuning the spring and the buffer but I'll give Ruger a nod today for working some kind of magic.

The weird twist, I installed an accelerometer on my phone and strapped it to the handguard using a MLOK mount meant for something else.

Using an entirely unscientific method of loosely cradling the stock on my shoulder I proceeded to take some readings on the axis that mattered ... to me.

At a scoped, unsuppressed and unbraked weight of ~ 8lb 8.5oz acceleration in a rearward direction at regulator settings 3, 2, 1 and 0 were measured to be 72.4, 74.9, 74.7 and 69.9 m/s respectively.

At as scoped, unsuppressed and braked weight of ~8lb 10oz acceleration in a rearward direction at regulator settings 3, 2, 1 and 0 were measured to be 64.1, 52.2, 64.8 and 71.2 m/s respectively.

At a scoped and suppressed weight of ~9lb 15oz acceleration in a rearward direction at regulator settings 3, 2, 1 and 0 were measured to be 49.3, 50.9, 56.6 and 58.9 m/s respectively.

The flaws in the "hold on loosely but don't let go" technique are clearly visible but the averages tell a story that seems plausible when comparing it to "felt" recoil.

The Brass ...

 

[Twinsen]

Got mine back from the smith, their 3-4 week backlog was actually 8 weeks.

The rifle length gas 16" SFAR is here.

The bolt velocity is much faster now so the gun can't cycle. I shut the gas off and had to pogo the action open to see pressure signs on the brass. This ammo is loaded light and despite it being super hot out, my gun and ammo were under 80 degrees from the AC.

I don't know what the smith did, but I hope he forgets how to breathe and I'll be getting another replacement from Ruger which I will sell at a massive loss.

If you tell people to buy an SFAR, you're a garbage human being. Everyone that has reviewed this POS positively can eat shit and die.

 

[AXMC]

Got mine back from the smith, their 3-4 week backlog was actually 8 weeks.

The rifle length gas 16" SFAR is here.

The bolt velocity is much faster now so the gun can't cycle. I shut the gas off and had to pogo the action open to see pressure signs on the brass. This ammo is loaded light and despite it being super hot out, my gun and ammo were under 80 degrees from the AC.

I don't know what the smith did, but I hope he forgets how to breathe and I'll be getting another replacement from Ruger which I will sell at a massive loss.

If you tell people to buy an SFAR, you're a garbage human being. Everyone that has reviewed this POS positively can eat shit and die.

Just to clarify, that was all suppressed? While I know that was your goal for this rifle, does it function properly unsuppresed after the chop?
Thanks

 

[Twinsen]

Just to clarify, that was all suppressed? While I know that was your goal for this rifle, does it function properly unsuppresed after the chop?
Thanks

All three shots were suppressed. I will be returning it without shooting it again.

I've wasted too much time and money helping Ruger develop their rifle.

 

[jetmd]

It is truly unfortunate how these have been such huge pieces of shit.

Sad

 

[Twinsen]

I spoke with Ruger on the phone.

They want me to run it on gas setting 3 and try other ammo. They said this is because the 20" SFAR has, this was repeated at least 3 times, "a rifling system". Supposedly, the "rifling system" is the reason they used a huge gas port. They also say I'll have to pay for whatever they do and shipping because I modified their PIECE OF SHIT to try to get it work.

I couldn't argue.

Rifling system.

I'm going to borescope it, take it out, put it on gas setting 3, and use normal ammunition. If I'm uninjured, I'll take pictures of the damage to the rifle. This MFer gonna KB. I told Ruger I'd pull the trigger with a string.

 

[doubloon]

Rifling system.

It literally took me about a minute to process this to the point where I think I understand.

A "rifiling system" as opposed to a "carbineiing system" or a "pistoling system" or [god forbid] a "miding system". I may never be able to buy another Ruger firearm.

Do you plan to ka-boom it at the metering session? For maximum casualty potential. Or at a public range you never plan to go back to?

 

[Twinsen]

I'm going to my local club, because multiple people can help stop the bleeding.

 

[Twinsen]

Pretty deep pressure signs on LC. Same, plus bent rim on PPU M80.

I put in a go gauge and it got stuck. The neck clearance shoulder was scraped up. I sized 3 pieces of older Federal LC brass and chambered them. All of the necks were chewed on the outside of the forward edge. One had a clean, semi circular burr hanging off.

 

[Triton225]

To me it seems like these guns are over gassed and ruger seems to be opening them up more as a fix. I think they did that on my 2nd return. Not sure cause I can't speak to the tech.

 

[Twinsen]

To me it seems like these guns are over gassed and ruger seems to be opening them up more as a fix. I think they did that on my 2nd return. Not sure cause I can't speak to the tech.

That's the impression I'm getting. They want it running like a raped ape. "Bolt velocity is the speed of light on gas setting 1? Set it to 3, let's learn something about theoretical physics."

 

[GreenGO Juan]

That's the impression I'm getting. They want it running like a raped ape. "Bolt velocity is the speed of light on gas setting 1? Set it to 3, let's learn something about theoretical physics."

using a supressor?

Which one?

 

[Twinsen]

Definitely using a can. A .358 Rex Silentium MG7 I bought to help out a friend that had the unfortunate luck of being a law abiding and honest man in the presence of feds.

 

[Gtscotty]

Got mine back from the smith, their 3-4 week backlog was actually 8 weeks.

The rifle length gas 16" SFAR is here.

The bolt velocity is much faster now so the gun can't cycle. I shut the gas off and had to pogo the action open to see pressure signs on the brass. This ammo is loaded light and despite it being super hot out, my gun and ammo were under 80 degrees from the AC.

I don't know what the smith did, but I hope he forgets how to breathe and I'll be getting another replacement from Ruger which I will sell at a massive loss.

If you tell people to buy an SFAR, you're a garbage human being. Everyone that has reviewed this POS positively can eat shit and die.

Just to check, you're saying that you had a 20" SFAR, ran it with a can, then sent it to a smith to chop the barrel to 16". Now you have a 16" with rifle length gas, and running it with the same can/configuration the bolt velocity is higher than when it was 20"?

If so, that's obviously the opposite of what would be expected, any chance the smith did anything to make it run with the lower dwell time ( buffer, spring, maybe something with the gas block)?

 

[Twinsen]

After seeing the result of my testing, Ruger told me they would not service or support my rifle. It is a $1,200 paperweight.

Just to check, you're saying that you had a 20" SFAR, ran it with a can, then sent it to a smith to chop the barrel to 16". Now you have a 16" with rifle length gas, and running it with the same can/configuration the bolt velocity is higher than when it was 20"?

If so, that's obviously the opposite of what would be expected, any chance the smith did anything to make it run with the lower dwell time ( buffer, spring, maybe something with the gas block)?

I made it quite clear I did not want that. I asked them if they touched the gas port and they said no. Also their system showed every step they did along the way. There's like 12 steps listed for cutting a barrel and making a washer. They listed bead blasting, finishing, etc. So I believe them, despite the result.

 

[Twinsen]

Ruger changed their mind. It's on the way back to them.

The only thing I can figure the smith might have done to increase bolt speed is better align the gas block. The gas port looked as fouled as the bore. It was the size of a planet, though.

 

[Twinsen]

Ruger's now holding it hostage for an $80 payment for them to fix their manufacturing defects. I asked them what was wrong with it and they wouldn't tell me. Actual schizophrenic customer service.

When I get it back, I will fire one shot with the gas turned off and document how bad the pressure signs are. I'm done with this garbage.

I bought a sub $600 POS PSA PA-10, shot it today, it works. Bottom of the barrel. The gun has bad flashing on the lower that is anodized over because they didn't notice. The "adjustable gas system" is absolutely not adjustable and it is overgassed on the only setting it has. But it functions. Bullets go out one end without me being scared parts of the bolt will come out the other.

The closest shooter to me at the range was using an SFAR and I picked up one piece of his brass to see his pressure signs were just like my SFAR had. The absolute worst pressure signs I have ever seen. I push the limit and run my reloads hot as hell and would never accept anything more than a visible but immeasurable ejector swipe. If my fingernail can feel anything at all, I'm not comfortable with it. The SFAR with factory ammo is far beyond that.

 

[Jmccracken1214]

Ruger's now holding it hostage for an $80 payment for them to fix their manufacturing defects. I asked them what was wrong with it and they wouldn't tell me. Actual schizophrenic customer service.

When I get it back, I will fire one shot with the gas turned off and document how bad the pressure signs are. I'm done with this garbage.

I bought a sub $600 POS PSA PA-10, shot it today, it works. Bottom of the barrel. The gun has bad flashing on the lower that is anodized over because they didn't notice. The "adjustable gas system" is absolutely not adjustable and it is overgassed on the only setting it has. But it functions. Bullets go out one end without me being scared parts of the bolt will come out the other.

The closest shooter to me at the range was using an SFAR and I picked up one piece of his brass to see his pressure signs were just like my SFAR had. The absolute worst pressure signs I have ever seen. I push the limit and run my reloads hot as hell and would never accept anything more than a visible but immeasurable ejector swipe. If my fingernail can feel anything at all, I'm not comfortable with it. The SFAR with factory ammo is far beyond that.

Did you get it back

 

[Twinsen]

Did you get it back

I did. Forgive me if I get mixed which problems were with which SFAR I've had. I think this is what happened this last time:

-Fired fewer than 5 rounds with the gas shut off and my face safely away from the rifle
-I locked the bolt back manually
-Brass had flowed into the ejector holes so much I had to reach into the ejection port, grab the brass that was stuck to the bolt face and snap it off, which I'd never even heard of happening
-Requested RMA
-Ruger asked me to try again with the gas port set to 3 because they have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA HOW FIREARMS WORK AND DO NOT KNOW WHAT IS WRONG WITH THE RIFLES THEY ARE MAKING
-Laughed, set gas to setting 3, fired fewer than 5 rounds one handed, shielding my face and torso
-Massive pressure signs, like always, and with at least 3 brands of ammo
-Updated Ruger
-Ruger received the rifle back in mid-September
-Ruger says the rifle is in spec despite it being dangerously out of spec
-Ruger said they would send me a refund
-Ruger has not sent a refund


It appears they do not understand what is wrong with their rifles and are refusing to acknowledge it. Somebody is going to lose an eye or a some fingers. I really like Ruger, but they have dropped the ball on these SFARs. These things are absolute garbage.

I hadn't posted here, because I didn't want to risk not getting that refund. It's like $1300. I recently found out from PTR Industries if you go online and badmouth a company that is screwing you over, they might royally fuck you. I posted about them screwing with me for 3 years over a PTR so busted it couldn't even be disassembled. They sent it back to me over and over in comically broken ways until the last time when they must have just smashed it with a hammer.

 

[joethereloader]

We shot a 20' SFAR this weekend with an installed seekins adjustable gas block ( took the factory off). Brass looked fine. No marks. Standard recoil buffer/ spring also.

Just get a gas block that offers more adjustment settings and a new gas tube because you cannot reuse Ruger's and it will fix your issue and you can enjoy the rifle and the brass.

seekins adjustable gas block which one did you buy

 

[Jmccracken1214]

Has anyone cut down a 20" yet?

Im really wanting the rifle gas system, but I keep seeing people say there will be issues with cutting it down to 16"... not sure how or why.

Ive built a handful of 308 AR's that were 16" with rifle gas, ran adjustable gas blocks and they all ran perfect. I dont see any reason the SFAR would be any different.

 

[AXMC]

Has anyone cut down a 20" yet?

Im really wanting the rifle gas system, but I keep seeing people say there will be issues with cutting it down to 16"... not sure how or why.

Ive built a handful of 308 AR's that were 16" with rifle gas, ran adjustable gas blocks and they all ran perfect. I dont see any reason the SFAR would be any different.

Check out above, Twinsen did. He had issues, but I don't think he experimented (changing the gas block or using a heavier buffer, etc). So I probably wouldn't call it a definitively failed experiment.

 

[doubloon]

Im really wanting the rifle gas system, but I keep seeing people say there will be issues with cutting it down to 16"... not sure how or why.

As soon as mine in running like it should I'll be cutting it down to 18" or 16".

All the issues Twinsen had were machining/function related but not length related.