Rifle Scopes S&B 3-20 vs 3-20 US and MSR2

[Luvman]

So I’m saving my shillings and planning on picking up a S&B 3-20 this year. I have a few questions I can’t seem to dig up any answers to.

Has anyone heard when the S&B 3-20’s with MSR2 reticle will be available?

And for those of you that have used both the regular 3-20 and the ultra short how does the Eyebox compare? Is the US a lot hard to get behind? And how are the lower profile turrets on the US?

 

[Luvman]

Anyone?

 

[TacticalPlinker]

Anyone?

I ordered a PMII 3-20 AND a 3-20 US both in MSR2. Back in August '18. Got tired of waiting.
Bought a KAHLES K525i SKMR3. Planning on picking up a K318i in MSR .

S&B wait times are just BS

 

[Luvman]

I guess I shouldn’t be in a hurry. I’ll have to check out the K318i.

 

[Dthomas3523]

I had a 318. In my opinion, all things considered, it’s the best ultra short out there.

Only reason I sold it was I found a good deal on a tangent and the 318 is almost too short. Limited room for rings/mount and it got in my way a little on my vudoo since the length of pull on the bolt is so short.

Eyebox on the Schmidt ultras is fine and I prefer the lower profile turrets to the top hat turrets on non ultra short Schmidt’s.

 

[Glassaholic]

Luv, I've had the Schmidt 3-20, the ultra short 3-20 and the K318i. The scope that gave me the most "wow" experience was the standard 3-20, just an amazing optic that is often overlooked, I am not a huge fan of MTC turrets but you can send to Schmidt to have them remove that feature. The Ultra short 3-20 is still pretty long, the K318i is considerable shorter when side by side. My biggest complaints with Schmidt and Bender is the aforementioned MTC, the illumination tumor (get with the program and put it inline with the parallax) which is a serious problem for lefties, and the lack of reticles I really like (they have plenty of reticles just not ones I'm thrilled about). That being said I do like the MSR2 and maybe the new GRI2D or whatever they're calling their new tree reticle; however, like you've encountered God only knows when these reticles will actually make it into their scopes, Schmidt is notorious for taking a very long time to bring things to market. We're finally starting to see the LRR-Mil reticle show up and my guess is they'll want to establish their own reticle before they put the MSR2 in anything. The other downside is it seems they are only focusing on the Ultra Short 3-20 for the new reticles and not the standard 3-20, don't get me wrong, I really like the Ultra Shorts but the 3-20 isn't as good optically as the standard 3-20, it's not bad by any stretch of the imagination but my K318i performed better optically at the upper end than my US 3-20, that along with the fact the K318i is much shorter and has reticles I like made me keep the K318i and sell the US 3-20.

At the end of the day they are all fantastic alpha class scopes that won't disappoint even with some of their shortcomings. Like Dthomas above, IMO the Kahles K318i is the best Ultra Short scope available today, my only complaint is that I wish it was a bit lighter but it's not heavy either so I'm okay with that. My second favorite Ultra Short is the Schmidt US 5-20 as I think it is better optically than the US 3-20 and while it is a 4x design it has incredible FOV for such a short scope.

With regard to eyebox I have found the ultra shorts to be a bit more finnicky than their full size cousins; however, I've never had an issue with the eyebox of the ultra shorts I've had, maybe the Leupold Mark 5HD was the most finnicky but again it wasn't horrible. The standard 3-20 had an amazing eyebox that I thought was very forgiving which is another reason I liked that scope so much. The MSR and P4LF reticles are not bad reticles and I have often thought about picking up another standard 3-20 with MSR reticle I loved the scope that much! You can read more about my thoughts on the standard 3-20 in the review I did in the link in my signature, I haven't gotten around to the Ultra Short review I intended because life keeps getting in the way but you just got a mini version of that review here

Edit - one thing I forgot to mention is that the tension of the parallax on the Ultra Short 3-20 requires Herculean effort to turn, I even sent my scope back to Schmidt (fantastic experience by the way with quick turn around) and they said the seals around the field lens had to be replaced, but Jerry warned me that the design of the US 3-20 makes it one of the tightest parallax's they have and while it was better after being serviced it was still more difficult to turn than I prefer. The parallax on the regular 3-20 was nice and smooth and the US 5-20 while stiffer was still easier to turn than the US 3-20.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Just an FYI that Schmidt made a quick comment on FB that the grid2 is only available in 5-25.

So don’t hold out purchase for any other model.

 

[Alpine 338]

Having both the 3-20 and 3-20 Ultra Short, I can provide you with the following info;

See attached pictures. I purchased (special order) directly from S&B, a 3-20 Ultra Short. I purchased it with the intention of using it in both PRS type matches on a bolt rifle, and in Field type team matches on a precision AR platform. It took several months to get the Ultra Short because of the features I wanted. MSR Reticle, Capped Windage, and the seldom seen 14-mil per revolution DT turrets. The turrest are a special order for the US market, as the vocal minority here in the US demanded 17-mils per revolution, and S&B delivered what that vocal minority wanted. I had so many arguments with people insisting that the 14-mil per revolution turrets don't exist, or are not available on the Ultra Shorts, and even after showing them pictures, they would remain in denial.
Even though S&B offer quite a few options, they try to limit the number of features in scopes for the US market, as it's more difficult to catalog so many variations, and try to keep them in stock.
While waiting on my Ultra Short to arrive, I had the opportunity to trade a 5-25 with P4-F reticle for a 3-20 with Tremor 2 reticle. The P4-F was the last of a one-off reticle to my other S&B scopes with MSR and Gen 2 XL reticles. Having previously owned a 5-25 with Tremor 3, I found it to be way too busy for a Christmas Tree Reticle, and after studying the Tremor 2 diagram, I said to myself let's give it a try. I have since picked up another 3-20 with Tremor 2 Reticle. I like the uncluttered Christmas Tree Reticle, and find the wind dots more useful than a grid that is not only more cluttered, but needing to count 2/10 lines can get cumbersome when in a tight time limit. I personally think the grid type reticle's are more useful in a spotting scope over a rifle scope.
Back to the 3-20, when they first came out, I admit I kind of poo pooed them, mostly because they were more costly than the 5-25, and the LT/MTC turrets got a bad rap. Honestly, now that I have a couple, I like them. I even would like to get one with the MSR Reticle. The MTC is not as bad as the Premier Reticle scopes. The Ultra Short has an even better MTC, very smooth, noticable, but not overly tight.

The Ultra Short is fantastic, good glass, short, magnification ring a little more grippy than other models. However, the low profile turrets are not the best if you have aging eyes like me (another reason I chose the 14-mil per revolution turrets). The index lines are not tall enough, and take some extra focus of the eyes to operate. If anything that needs change in the Ultra Short, and that's the 2/10 Mil index markings on the turrets. I would prefer a little taller turret, so there's more purchase to grab ahold of, but that's one of those things that you'll have to get used to.

As you can see in the picture, the regular 3-20 is almost the same size as the Ultra Short with Sunshade installed.

As far as the MSR Reticle, I'm a big fan of it. In my opinion, it's the best reticle out there. I have not had a chance to look through a scope with the MSR 2 Reticle, but looking at the diagram and pictures, I think it would be better suited for higher power optics like the S&B 5-40, and would make a great ELR reticle. Time will only tell if they will offer the MSR 2 in the 3-20's?

 

[Alpine 338]

Oh, as you can see, I've yet to mount the Ultra Short, but the eye box appears to be similar in both scopes.

 

[Glassaholic]

It took several months to get the Ultra Short because of the features I wanted. MSR Reticle, Capped Windage, and the seldom seen 14-mil per revolution DT turrets. The turrets are a special order for the US market, as the vocal minority here in the US demanded 17-mils per revolution, and S&B delivered what that vocal minority wanted.

My US 3-20 was also the 14 mil turrets but was CW, I'm not certain who Schmidt talks to about features in the USA, but I think they talk to the wrong people as I don't know anyone who "likes" the 17 mil turrets, so not sure who this "vocal minority" you speak of is, they may not mind them but "liking" them is something else, most shooters make comments about better turret feel if clicks were more widely spaced. My big issue with the MTC turrets is that I over dial every full mil because the MTC and end up having to dial back to get to the .1/.2 position past the full mark.

 

[Glassaholic]

Just an FYI that Schmidt made a quick comment on FB that the grid2 is only available in 5-25.

So don’t hold out purchase for any other model.

Interesting, just watched a video with Schmidt, they officially call the GR2ID the "GR squared ID" reticle or "Grid" for short, talk about one of the most confusing reticle names but then again how many know what P4F stands for or H2CMR Thanks DT for the note about the availability of the reticle in other scopes. Apparently, even though the 5-25 is one of the oldest designs for modern 5x scopes it still sells like hotcakes even with its tunneling issues, I've really been hoping Schmidt would come out with a new PM III design and the 5-25 would be the first to be replaced.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Interesting, just watched a video with Schmidt, they officially call the GR2ID the "GR squared ID" reticle or "Grid" for short, talk about one of the most confusing reticle names but then again how many know what P4F stands for or H2CMR Thanks DT for the note about the availability of the reticle in other scopes. Apparently, even though the 5-25 is one of the oldest designs for modern 5x scopes it still sells like hotcakes even with its tunneling issues, I've really been hoping Schmidt would come out with a new PM III design and the 5-25 would be the first to be replaced.

Same here. I’d like to see 5-25 with the low profile turrets like the ultras and 5-45 and illumination built into the parallax

 

[ejg]

I am using the 3-20 US for hunting and plinking since good two years. It is my absolute favourite scope. Optically better than my K624i, I can make out bullet holes in targets that I can't with the Kahles. I have the low turrets which are fantastic, sick of the twisted turrets on the Kahles when the scope whacks against the rucksack. I never had the larger 3-20 however had loan of the 3-27 for a while. The eyebox seemed much nicer on my 3-20 Ultra short.
edi

 

[Alpine 338]

I don't know anyone who "likes" the 17 mil turrets, so not sure who this "vocal minority" you speak of is, they may not mind them but "liking" them is something else, most shooters make comments about better turret feel if clicks were more widely spaced. My big issue with the MTC turrets is that I over dial every full mil because the MTC and end up having to dial back to get to the .1/.2 position past the full mark.

I agree with you.

Minority is the key word, and I think most of the influence for the 17-mil turrets came from the Military Bureaucrats who think they know better than the end users, and tried to mimic the 22-mil per turn turrets on the Premier Reticle 3-15 scopes.

My Ultra Short has really nice MTC, maybe they improved them over time?

 

[Glassaholic]

^^^ My thoughts as well with the military requirement. I think the US 5-20 was first introduced for the ECOS-O program, I loved my old setup with Doctor RDS

 

[Simia Dei]

I am using the 3-20 US for hunting and plinking since good two years. It is my absolute favourite scope. Optically better than my K624i, I can make out bullet holes in targets that I can't with the Kahles. I have the low turrets which are fantastic, sick of the twisted turrets on the Kahles when the scope whacks against the rucksack. I never had the larger 3-20 however had loan of the 3-27 for a while. The eyebox seemed much nicer on my 3-20 Ultra short.
edi
View attachment 7015526

What reticle are your running in your 3-20 mate? I just ordered one with the MSR reticle to go on my hunting/match backup gun

 

[Luvman]

Guys thanks for your insights!! Since the AI AT was introduced I’ve wanted one with a 3-20 PM II. I have the AT and it’s wearing a 3-18 razor currently. I’ve been behind a 5-25 and the tunneling turned me off. Everything else was amazing. I like to stick with 3 to 4x on the bottom as my precision rifle doubles as my hunting rifle.

I actually liked the premier mtc turrets after they finally got them right on the scope I had. I treated them like a 2 stage turret and dialed the full mil value then the tenth. Having an early premier has also made be VERY cautious about the shiny new optics that hit the market. I didn’t like being a beta tester.

It’s sounds like the 3-20 US 17mil turrets would be more of a curse than a blessing so I’ll skip it and keep my sights set on the regular 3-20.

The k318i is an interesting option as well.

 

[BallisticPrimate]

Huge fan of the US 3-20. I can't think of any other scope that gives you a combination of 20x top end/3x bottom end and a huge FOV all the way through the mag range. Glass is outstanding, eye-box is generous and I actually think of the MTC as a feature rather than a bug. The MSR reticle is excellent, capped windage is a good idea and the weight at 32oz isn't obscene. I have the 14mil turret and think it makes for a good improvement over the 17mil.

There is literally no scope I'd rather have for a hunting/comp shooting crossover optic.

 

[Glassaholic]

Huge fan of the US 3-20. I can't think of any other scope that gives you a combination of 20x top end/3x bottom end and a huge FOV all the way through the mag range.

That's because there is no other scope on the market that offers that Well, maybe the March 3-24 but it does not have huge FOV by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[BallisticPrimate]

That's because there is no other scope on the market that offers that Well, maybe the March 3-24 but it does not have huge FOV by any stretch of the imagination.

Certainly not from lack of market demand. I did a T&E on the March, wonderful little scope, also used the 5-40 for a while and which performed extremely well so I'm a big fan of March in general, but with the US 3-20 I'm content (for now!), it's the first scope I've owned where I don't wish it had feature "X" - now if I was after a specialised comp or hunting scope, I'd want slightly different feature sets, but it's the best all-rounder I've found to date.

 

[Glassaholic]

I hear you BP, the US 3-20 checks off a lot of boxes and with the MSR2 coming will make it even better. I wonder what happened to the Multi-turn II turrets, I really like that feature but haven’t heard anything about them of late.

 

[ejg]

What reticle are your running in your 3-20 mate? I just ordered one with the MSR reticle to go on my hunting/match backup gun

I have the PL4F in the 3-20. Have a MSR in the Kahles which is a bit nicer to use. Not much in it, i am happy as is and the deer are dropping .
Edi

 

[chasedeer]

I am using the 3-20 US for hunting and plinking since good two years. It is my absolute favourite scope. Optically better than my K624i, I can make out bullet holes in targets that I can't with the Kahles. I have the low turrets which are fantastic, sick of the twisted turrets on the Kahles when the scope whacks against the rucksack. I never had the larger 3-20 however had loan of the 3-27 for a while. The eyebox seemed much nicer on my 3-20 Ultra short.
edi
View attachment 7015526

Absolutely love this plain you are hunting on, my PMII has been my goto favourite even ahead of my ATACR

 

[dontbelievethisnonsense]

So I’m saving my shillings and planning on picking up a S&B 3-20 this year. I have a few questions I can’t seem to dig up any answers to.

Has anyone heard when the S&B 3-20’s with MSR2 reticle will be available?

And for those of you that have used both the regular 3-20 and the ultra short how does the Eyebox compare? Is the US a lot hard to get behind? And how are the lower profile turrets on the US?

https://finnaccuracy.com/collection...hort-lp-1-be-msr2-1cm-cw-dt35-mtc-lt-st-zs-ct

Is this what you mean?

 

[Iggles2017]

View attachment 7015666

Huge fan of the US 3-20. I can't think of any other scope that gives you a combination of 20x top end/3x bottom end and a huge FOV all the way through the mag range. Glass is outstanding, eye-box is generous and I actually think of the MTC as a feature rather than a bug. The MSR reticle is excellent, capped windage is a good idea and the weight at 32oz isn't obscene. I have the 14mil turret and think it makes for a good improvement over the 17mil.

There is literally no scope I'd rather have for a hunting/comp shooting crossover optic.

I totally agree with this assessment.

 

[Luvman]

https://finnaccuracy.com/collection...hort-lp-1-be-msr2-1cm-cw-dt35-mtc-lt-st-zs-ct

Is this what you mean?

This is what I’m after. Out of stock in the US

https://www.eurooptic.com/Schmidt-Bender-3-20x50-PM-II-LP-MSR2-1cm-ccw-DT-MTC-LT-ST-ZC-LT.aspx

 

[ejg]

Oh, as you can see, I've yet to mount the Ultra Short, but the eye box appears to be similar in both scopes.

I thought the same, was in Dortmund Germany last weekend at the Jagd und Hund show S&B stand. They had both 3-20 next to each other letting me compare them side by side.
edi
ps. they also had the new Exos 3-21 sf which is based on the 3-20 US but only has hunting reticles.

 

[Glassaholic]

This is what I’m after. Out of stock in the US

https://www.eurooptic.com/Schmidt-Bender-3-20x50-PM-II-LP-MSR2-1cm-ccw-DT-MTC-LT-ST-ZC-LT.aspx

That is one of the scopes I'm interested in as well, spoke with Jason about it and it sounds like they are about 4 weeks out from hitting our shores, Schmidt has to wrap up some final export issues before they can ship, sounds like the scopes are ready just waiting for clearance from the US before they can ship them over.

 

[Iggles2017]

That is one of the scopes I'm interested in as well, spoke with Jason about it and it sounds like they are about 4 weeks out from hitting our shores, Schmidt has to wrap up some final export issues before they can ship, sounds like the scopes are ready just waiting for clearance from the US before they can ship them over.

That msr 2 reticle looks pretty sweet