• The Shot You’ll Never Forget Giveaway - Enter To Win A Barrel From Rifle Barrel Blanks!

    Tell us about the best or most memorable shot you’ve ever taken. Contest ends June 13th and remember: subscribe for a better chance of winning!

    Join contest Subscribe

Rifle Scopes S&B or Nightforce for M40a5 build?

Johnny Sasaki

Johnny Sasaki

Full Member
Full Member
Minuteman
Sep 26, 2010
563
2
36
Lost in the Universe, on a ship, a living ship...
#1
Ok, so I'm thinking of a new rifle build. Rifle will be a GAP M40a5 (I'll probably see if they will swap in a Templar action, not sure yet though). The only problem is I was thinking a Nightforce 3.5-15 Highrev Zero stop for a while, but then I saw that the Marines use the S&B 3-12 pmii and I like that a lot as well.

I'd basically just like a little help picking one beings I have no experience with either and it's kinda hard to figure out which one you'll like better over the internet, lol.

Anyway, I'd like to point out that I don't really care about this rifle being a carbon copy of the Marines rifle (hence the possible Templar action), I just happen to like the features of the rifle and want the best possible scope to go with it.
wink.gif


I am, however, leaning towards the Schmitty but at the same time I kinda like the Nightforce's reticles better and the S&B is right around a g-wizzle more and I was wondering if there is any noticable difference in quality for the price difference.


On a quick side note I was also eyeing up the S&B 5-25 as well, but I figured that thing might be a little overkill. Of course I could always just dial it down to 12x when needed.

A lot to juggle, I know. Please help.

If anyone has any personal experience with either of these scopes your opinions of them would be appreciated as well as any pics of them mounted on rifles (so as to get a size comparison) and maybe some pics of the S&B's reticles (real ones if possible, I've already seen the reticle diagram but very few real pics)


Thanks in advance.
 
#2
Re: S&B or Nightforce for M40a5 build?

What kind of reticle were you planning on going with in the NF? I can only guess that you're looking at the F1 MLR mil/mil 3.5-15x50?

If yes then that would be a very good scope to start on. Good image, bright, good usable reticle, nice positive clicks on the turrets.

If you are willing to spend the extra $800-$1000 on the S&B then it will do you fine also. I would think the 3-12 or the 4-16 would be perfect.

Figure the NF F1 can be had for $2100-2200 roughy and the S&B will run you $2800-3000 roughly.
 
#3
Re: S&B or Nightforce for M40a5 build?

Yea, those prices are correct. I was actually looking at the NPR1 reticle on the NF btw. The mildot on the S&B pretty much because I only saw two that they offered and I didn't like the other even though it looked very similar to the NPR1, it just looked too packed with lines.

For the record, it actually just has to look appealing to my eye when I look through beings I'm basically only going to be using this rifle for known distances on the range.
 
#5
Re: S&B or Nightforce for M40a5 build?

Seeing as it won't be an exact clone rifle I would say get the S&B 5-25x56 with a P4F reticle. It gives you all the magnification you will need and the P4F is an excellent reticle for long range shooting. It's what I have on my match rifle. I will be bringing it out tomorrow and I can try to snap a couple of pics of the reticle for you.

There is also the new 3-20x S&B coming out which is a smaller package than the 5-25 but still offers an excellent power range. If the rifle build hasn't even started yet then the new 3-20 will be out well before the rifle is done. Just another option to think about.

NF makes an excellent scope as I have had a couple F1s myself as well as a 5.5-22 and 1-4x and still have one F1 but if I had the choice I would go with the S&B 5-25x56.
 
#7
Re: S&B or Nightforce for M40a5 build?

I've used the 3-12x PMII just once, so my experience behind them is lacking. However I noticed that it was a little easier to get behind than the F1 and the reticle(mil dot) was easier to read than the NF F1 MLR. I didn't check tunnel vision or eye relief on the Schmidt, but on the F1, tunnel vision goes away after 4-4.5x, eye relief on max mag is ~2.75-3", the MLR's reticle thickness is a quarter moa, full mil lines are .2 mils in length, the half mil lines are .14 mils. The F1 mil dot reticle by comparison is .117 MOA thick and the mil dot is .25mil in diameter. I'll be getting a reticle swap or trading the F1 MLR for an F1 mil dot to see what it's like first hand. NF doesn't offer the NPR1 in the F1 yet...give them about 1-2 months for this and other reticles.

I'm pretty sure someone can get you more info on the Schmidt's tunnel vision and eye relief since I no longer have mine(will have another soon), but there are pics already on the hide...

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1694351 <read Lindy's post on the MLR>
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1042963

And if you're willing to go through it all...
through the scope pics
 
#8
Re: S&B or Nightforce for M40a5 build?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: OFIS</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just to play devils advocate, aren't USMC rifles going to be wearing PH in the future? </div></div>

I did see a couple Premier's on Making the Cut: Marine Snipers last week on Discovery. They were mostly using their S&B though. I think the Marines have an option to replace old or broken S&B with Premiers but that doesn't mean every one that goes down will be replaced with a PH.
 
#9
Re: S&B or Nightforce for M40a5 build?

just research OPTICS FAQS to see many quality articles on optics. Thats what I did, then I settled on the NF 5.5-22 NP-R1. Great scope. But more importantly, in my price range. I plan to go US Optics once I save enough money, and put this scope on a 338L.

Below is a pic. Its my newest build, literally attached the scope last night. Its a GAP Rock M40A1 with templar upgrade, threaded barrel, DBM, and flushcups. I couldnt get a good pic of the recticle. Will try again later.

wswdpg.jpg
 
#10
Re: S&B or Nightforce for M40a5 build?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Johnny Sasaki</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...and I was wondering if there is any noticable difference in quality for the price difference.
</div></div>
Yes there is. Of those two, I would definately get the S&B; however, like Rob said, I would prefer a 5-25x over the 3-12.

Don't forget the Premier. I own a 5-25 PH and couldn't be happier with it so far.
 
#11
Re: S&B or Nightforce for M40a5 build?

Thanks guys, this is exactly what I'm looking for. The pic above really helps as well. I'm really trying to get a size comparison on the higher magnification scopes (like the 5-25) verses maybe the 3-12 or the 4-16. Obviously in a perfect world I would have a 100x capable scope that fit into something the same size or even smaller than the 3-12.

Basically what I'm getting at is I'm trying to weigh the advantages of having a high power scope vs the size increase. I don't want the Hubble space telescope on my rifle, ya know?

I would also like to point out that I looked up some prices on the Hensoldt's and they are almost exactly the same as the S&B's so they are also not out of the question, lol.
 
#12
Re: S&B or Nightforce for M40a5 build?

Obviously the higher powered scopes are going to be a few inches longer than a 3-12x but with those inches you get more versatility in the scope. The rifle you are looking to build isn't a short light weight hunting rifle. A 5-25 would not look or feel out of place on top of it.

Here's some size comparison pics of the NF F1 3.5-15x50 and the S&B 5-25x56 on the same rifle. Both have sunshades on them. The S&B is 2.5" and I beleive the NF is 3".
S&B
P1010012.jpg

NF
P3040434.jpg


Here's a picture of the 3-12x50 on a similar sized rifle for size comparison. Also a 4-16x42 S&B on the same rifle. The 50mm objective version is basically the same length.
Range308.jpg

P1010004-1.jpg


That said if you wanted less size but still have the magnification look at the new 3-20x S&B. Higher power in a scope that is about the same size as a 4-16x.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Itsadryheat
#13
Re: S&B or Nightforce for M40a5 build?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Johnny Sasaki</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks guys, this is exactly what I'm looking for. The pic above really helps as well. I'm really trying to get a size comparison on the higher magnification scopes (like the 5-25) verses maybe the 3-12 or the 4-16. Obviously in a perfect world I would have a 100x capable scope that fit into something the same size or even smaller than the 3-12.

Basically what I'm getting at is I'm trying to weigh the advantages of having a high power scope vs the size increase. I don't want the Hubble space telescope on my rifle, ya know?

I would also like to point out that I looked up some prices on the Hensoldt's and they are almost exactly the same as the S&B's so they are also not out of the question, lol.

</div></div>

Be sure to give one a look through before you make your decision.

I think you'll like what you see.
wink.gif
 
#14
Re: S&B or Nightforce for M40a5 build?

From my limited time behind the PH3-15 and the SB4-16, I will say that while the PH is a chunky ass hunk of a scope compared to the SB, it gets a full sight picture at 3x whereas the SB tends to give up some vision around the edges as the magnification goes lower.

My USO is the same way and it was the first and only thing I had buyers remorse about.

You MUST <span style="font-size: 11pt">MUST</span><span style="font-size: 14pt"> MUST</span> look through/handle them before you can be totally sure about a purchase.
 
#15
Re: S&B or Nightforce for M40a5 build?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: OFIS</div><div class="ubbcode-body">From my limited time behind the PH3-15 and the SB4-16, I will say that while the PH is a chunky ass hunk of a scope compared to the SB, it gets a full sight picture at 3x whereas the SB tends to give up some vision around the edges as the magnification goes lower.

My USO is the same way and it was the first and only thing I had buyers remorse about.
<span style="color: #FF0000"><span style="font-weight: bold">
You MUST <span style="font-size: 11pt">MUST</span><span style="font-size: 14pt"> MUST</span> look through/handle them before you can be totally sure about a purchase.</span></span> </div></div>

+1
 
#17
Re: S&B or Nightforce for M40a5 build?

Took some pics today through the scope of the P4F in my 5-25x56. Now just a little warning, I SUCK at taking through the scope pics and my camera sucks as well so don't take the clarity of the scope as what it is actually like because it is much better LOL I took pics on 5, 10, 15 and 25 power. You can actually see the lines better at 5x in person but even in the pic you can make them out.


The round steel is an 8" gong at 400 yards.
5x
P9270811.jpg

10x
P9270803.jpg

15x
P9270808.jpg

25x
P9270807.jpg
 
#18
Re: S&B or Nightforce for M40a5 build?

Maybe give Alex Roy @ euro optics a call/email, not sure if they have a showroom but they have EVERYTHING you're looking for. (located in Montoursville PA)
 
#21
Re: S&B or Nightforce for M40a5 build?

The M40A5 is a large enough rifle that even the 5-25x S&B won't look too big mounted on one, and I like the P4F reticle too. The 3-12x MTC Gen II mildot S&B is the "correct" scope for the rifle, and I'm using one on a full spec M40A3. I have a 4-16x FFP Hensoldt on my GAP M40A5, but the S&Bs would work about as well unless you need the higher 25x magnification. My M40A5 is chambered in 260Rem, so I thought the higher magnification (16x versus 12x) would be helpful at the longer ranges. If you shoot 308Win, there is rarely reason to go higher than 16x with good image resolution.

I don't have much experience with the NightForce models.

Here's a pic of an M40A3 that I used to own, it has a first-generation M8541 3-12x S&B scope on top; with the sunshade it's about the same size as the 5-25x PMII.

M40A32rightside.jpg
 
#22
Re: S&B or Nightforce for M40a5 build?

Yes only the center portion lights up when the illumination is turned on.
 
#23
Re: S&B or Nightforce for M40a5 build?

if you have the funds you would be crazy to not get a s&b or hensoldt. nxs just isn't in the same class quality wise. nxs is durable and useable, but the glass and turrets on the s&b are considerably better.

no brainer s&b all the way
 
#24
Re: S&B or Nightforce for M40a5 build?

Wow Rob... Thanks to you I now have scope envy. Very nice hardware you got there. I will have to stay with th nxs for a while longer
 
#25
Re: S&B or Nightforce for M40a5 build?

I already have my order in for one of the 3-20's, the new Schmidt and Bender. I got on the POF 6.5 mm Creedmoor build and I am going to mount one of the 3-20's on it. The build should be done about the time the scopes are coming. Can't wait!
 
#26
Re: S&B or Nightforce for M40a5 build?

Rob that 4-16x42mm is sure sexy.

Nightforce are one of the best and most reliable scopes on the market (Their NEW Hi-Speed turrets are Very, Very nice). NF has good glass but it is not as good as S&B, Hensoldt, and Premier. The S&B are outstanding scopes they provide great glass, the P4 and P4F are very nice reticles, and I love their turrets. I’m really looking forward to the NEW S&B 3-20x50mm. Hensoldt has a track record that is impeccable for reliability, quality of glass, tracking, and customer services. I just started using a Hensoldt and I’m loving it. I have also been running Premier Heritage for over a year now and it has been rock sold for me.

Mike @ CS TACTICAL.com
 
#28
Re: S&B or Nightforce for M40a5 build?

Ok guys, you've been helping a lot, however instead of S&B vs Nightforce, it's now basically a S&B 5-25 vs a Hensoldt 4-16. I will also entertain the possibility of a USO SN-3 because I hear great things and they seem cheaper without loosing very much quality, at least that I can notice over the internet. Also I like their reticles.


I hope I'm not driving you guys crazy, lol. It takes me a while to make up my mind. You should have seen how long it took me to build my computer lol.
 
#31
Re: S&B or Nightforce for M40a5 build?

Just put your initial specs together and get some feedback here. Most people would suggest a reticle and turret controls that measure in "mils" or milliradians (sometimes called "1cm@100m"). Just make sure the reticle and turrets use the same angular units (mils, MOA, IPHY, grads...). There are a number of threads about the "best" USO reticles and you can check the USO website for drawings.
 
#32
Re: S&B or Nightforce for M40a5 build?

Stick with choosing between S&B and Hensoldt. Now like Jack said pick the one that has the power, reticle and knobs you like and get it.
 
#33
Re: S&B or Nightforce for M40a5 build?

+1 For US Optics.

When it gets down to being able to customize a scope to your exact needs, it is tough to beat. AND its made in the gool ol US of A. Nothing against the German quality scopes, and dont get me wrong they ARE quality, but I prefer my money stays in America.

But if I did go to the <span style="font-weight: bold">Dark Side</span>, I would love to own that new 3-20 S&B. Yowser that looks nice.

 
#40
Re: S&B or Nightforce for M40a5 build?

I would get the S&B PMII it is a great scope, one of my favorite feature is the MTC turret. I'm not sure if weight is an issue . That gun is pretty hefty with the 3-12, it should be close to 19lbs ready to go. Plus that PMII just looks right up there.
 
#42
Re: S&B or Nightforce for M40a5 build?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1luckeyt/a</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would get the S&B PMII it is a great scope, one of my favorite features is the MTC turret. I'm not sure if weight is an issue . That gun is pretty hefty with the 3-12, it should be close to 19lbs ready to go. Plus that PMII just looks right up there. </div></div>

I was wondering when this subject would come up: scope weight.

Look. I am nobody. Really. Especially when it comes to high end precision rifles and optics. I am more of a pistol shooter. But I did decide I wanted one nice rifle to shoot and learn on. I settled on an FN SPR A3g with Seekin alloy rings and a S&B 3-12 PM II MTC MIL/MIL.

I was really looking at the USO scopes but the one "negative" I was given by some co-workers was the weight of USO. Now some of them have USO scopes so they aren't "anti" anything. But the comment was made that I am already running a heavy rifle. Why get alloy rings if you are going to get a heavy optic? Obviously their concern was humping their gear to get into position. So weight is an issue.

But to me, all other things being equal: world class glass, power, durability, warranty, reputation, the lighter optic is going to come out ahead.

My only "desire" these days would be wanting to upgrade from the 3-12 power. But I really don't need it. I love my S&B optic.

But like I said. I don't really know what is "it" these days. Maybe USO has lighter scopes? Maybe the other options are ever lighter than the current S&Bs? I am just a guy with more rifle than skill trying to keep it all togther.
grin.gif



Regards,
Greyson

 
#43
Re: S&B or Nightforce for M40a5 build?

I have the 3-12 MTC Military with the Gen II reticle and I like everything about the scope as it is on the rifle I use it on. I would like to see the 3-20x when they are out, I am almost always at 10x to 12x and could probably use a little more at certain times.
 
#44
Re: S&B or Nightforce for M40a5 build?

My shooting partner and I trade off rifles and scopes regularly when we are shooting. Mine is an AW .308 with a S&B 5-25x56, his is a TRG-22 with a NXS 5.5-22x56. I have had a hard time seeing the difference in glass quality at our local shooting range, which is 230 yards. He is more of a glass whore, he can see the difference.

Today was a different story. We were set up shooting at almost 700 yards. Doing some ammo testing on a wooden target with a sprayed X (we weren't that well prepared.) Anyhow, the difference in glass quality became very apparent at that distance. I could see my bullet holes in the wood, and I could clearly see pits in the steel plate we had set up. It looked light high definition next to the Nightforce. We went back and forth and back and forth, and there was definitely a clear difference.

I'll say this- they are both great glass. They are both rugged, and both will track true. However, if you have the cash and appreciate the glass quality, the Bender is the better scope.
 
#46
Re: S&B or Nightforce for M40a5 build?

Have to agree with bm11. Have seen both and they are definitely top of the line with the S&B just a little better. Myself, I was able to afford the NF. It comes down to economics. Get the best you can afford without breaking the bank and don't look back.
 
#47
Re: S&B or Nightforce for M40a5 build?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: OFIS</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just to play devils advocate, aren't USMC rifles going to be wearing PH in the future? </div></div>

Your hearing a lot of "how it looks stuff". Research and base your decision what it is you want out of a scope and don't worry about looks. If your like me, you will love the 25x. Either way your not going to go wrong. IMO, the PR is a little better all around for a tac-scope. Your going to have a hard time telling the difference in glass quality between the PR, Hensoldt and S&B. I've heard a few say the PR and Hensoldt have slightly better glass quality.

The last number I got was 600 PR's for the USMC.

MS
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

USMCSGT0331
2025 Scout Sniper Association M40A5 rifle raffle
Replies
19
Views
1K
TicTacTex
TicTacTex
USMCSGT0331
2025 Scout Sniper Association M40A5 rifle raffle!
Replies
21
Views
1K
Jumbomike46
Jumbomike46
Y
Arken 4-16 vs Athlon 4-14
Replies
8
Views
558
yosemite_sam
Y
P
Rifle Scopes S&B Exos. 👎
Replies
8
Views
794
carbonbased
carbonbased
A
S&B Klassik Elevation Detent
Replies
5
Views
248
Attlaw
A
Top Bottom
Back
Home
Forums
Merch
Alerts