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Rifle Scopes S&B Owners ONLY...... Help

shoot4fun

shoot4fun

Gunny Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
    • Oct 27, 2003
    4,452
    794
    Riverside, Alabama, USA, etc
    I am thinking of an S&B in 3-20 for my latest AW and need your experiences with them. Most of my shooting will be 500 to 100o yards.
    I currently own several NF 5.5-22 scopes and really like them. Will the extra definition in the S&B glass versus NF offset the loss of 2X at the top?
    Reticle choice is between two. I don't do a lot of ranging targets with mils but I do use the hashes in my MLR reticles for hold over adjustment. Which of the two reticles, Klein or H2CMR, will be best for me?
    As a NF user, will I like CW or CCW turrets best?
    Lastly, if I want to buy new, what should one cost me? Feel free to PM on this one as I am not sure you all want to post prices in public.
    Any other major considerations? Please tell me if so.
     
    Re: S&B Owners ONLY...... Help

    I wouldnt be worried about loosing 2X on the top, I don't think thats even something to consider. I own a 5-25 P4F, if you do a lot of ranging the H2CMR is better IMO, sounds like you dont so the P4F would also be a great choice. New they run about $3499 if you skip the MTC, but you can manage to find a used one for around $3k.

    I believe the NF is CCW

    Kirk R
     
    Re: S&B Owners ONLY...... Help

    Having 20x instead of 22x is so insignificant you won't notice the difference. And although I think S&B glass is better than NF, NF is pretty good and the difference will probably be minor to you.

    For wind and elevation holds, the H2CMR reticle is definitely better than the Klein or the P4F, I have 2 S&Bs with the P4F and 1 with the H2CMR and I like the H2CMR better, but not enough to sell the 2 scopes with the P4F. Both reticles work just fine for tactical comps.

    I'm used to CCW turrets so I stuck with CCW turrets on all my scopes, it's just one less thing to have to think about.

    I have a 3-20 on my AW and although I like it a lot, the 5-25 and the 4-16x42 that I have are also great scopes. I have heard some say the 3-20 optics aren't as sharp as the 5-25, next time I go to the range I'll have to do a side by side comparison.
     
    Re: S&B Owners ONLY...... Help

    As said before the loss of 2X will not be noticed. I have owned a few NXS and ran them on 22X all the time but sence I have switched over to the 5-25 PMII I very rairly use over 20X and mostly under when shooting at distance. I feel the resolution is much better on the Bender.

    I just ordered a 2nd 5-25 with the H2CMR and have sence had the chance to shoot a 5-20 and now wish I had ordered one of them or atleast the locking MTC turrets on the 5-25. Oh well...
     
    Re: S&B Owners ONLY...... Help

    Kind of what I was thinking on the resolution too. Don't get me wrong, NF glass is very good but, I would thing the S&B would be a definite step up.
     
    Re: S&B Owners ONLY...... Help

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I have heard some say the 3-20 glass isn't as good as the 5-25, next time I go to the range I'll have to do a side by side comparison.</div></div>

    This is probably one of those things posted on the Internet and repeated until its "fact". It's S&B. They are not using inferior glass.

    Get the CCW knobs with the H2CMR reticle.
     
    Re: S&B Owners ONLY...... Help

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I have heard some say the 3-20 glass isn't as good as the 5-25, next time I go to the range I'll have to do a side by side comparison.</div></div>

    This is probably one of those things posted on the Internet and repeated until its "fact". It's S&B. They are not using inferior glass.

    Get the CCW knobs with the H2CMR reticle. </div></div>

    Kinda what I thought too.
    So, would you go 3-20 or 5-25 for comps?
     
    Re: S&B Owners ONLY...... Help

    Either will work fine. Good power ranges and same reticle. The only pro I would give to the 5-25 over the 3-20 is that it adjust parallax down to 10 meter. That said the 3-20 goes down to 25 meters so its still better than most as most are 50.
     
    Re: S&B Owners ONLY...... Help

    I've owned both and now only own the 5-25. Both had the H2CMR reticle. The 3-20 was not that much smaller than the 5-25. Maybe an inch shorter. It had a better field of view at lower power ranges, but the reticle was essentially unusable below 7X. I rarely go below 8X on any of my scopes anyways. I traded it for another 5-25 with the H2CMR and haven't regretted it.
     
    Re: S&B Owners ONLY...... Help

    If you want to see a scope's optical performance you should try looking through them in twilight. Higher quality scopes will have brighter/better resolution.

    In general I can see better in those conditions with glass from the big three.

    S&Bs are boring scopes, they just work, no drama.
    laugh.gif
     
    Re: S&B Owners ONLY...... Help

    Edited because the tool isn't worth it.

    Ok to clarify I wasn't talking about the actual glass but using "glass" as a term for the clarity of the optics.
     
    Re: S&B Owners ONLY...... Help

    Here is what I would like to see in this thread; help me decide, with your personal experience only, if I want 3-20 or 5-25 and if I want Klein or H2CMR. Discussion of technical aspects, internet folklore, other brands or anything else is not appreciated.
     
    Re: S&B Owners ONLY...... Help

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Edited because the tool isn't worth it.

    Ok to clarify I wasn't talking about the actual glass but using "glass" as a term for the clarity of the optics. </div></div>

    Rob,
    I must have missed something while at dinner. No matter, I appreciate your input and value your experience. I had the 5-25 GenII XR but never mounted it. I felt the reticle too busy for what I do.
     
    Re: S&B Owners ONLY...... Help

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Edited because the tool isn't worth it.

    Ok to clarify I wasn't talking about the actual glass but using "glass" as a term for the clarity of the optics. </div></div>

    I liked your origional response Rob, not out of line at all
     
    Re: S&B Owners ONLY...... Help

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shoot4fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here is what I would like to see in this thread; help me decide, with your personal experience only, if I want 3-20 or 5-25 and if I want Klein or H2CMR. Discussion of technical aspects, internet folklore, other brands or anything else is not appreciated.</div></div>

    Get the 5-25X56 with CCW standard doubeturn 0.1 MRAD turrets and the H2CMR reticle. The 3-20 is a little shorter but with the MTC and locking turrets chances are you'll end up hating those features if you don't have a need for them. The DT turrets are simple to reset, pretty easy to read with plenty of elevation to get even a slow .308 to a grand in one revolution. The H2CMR reticle also gives the shooter the ability to better break a target down to finer than .1 mil with some practice. When I was behind a H2CMR I was able to pretty easily break a 25" target down to 2.75 mils for a range of 252 yards. I shot it with my Leica LRF to compare and got a range of 253 yards so I'd say that's pretty good. It also gives the shooter the ability for more accurate holds on the windage side with little guesswork.
     
    Re: S&B Owners ONLY...... Help

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shoot4fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Edited because the tool isn't worth it.

    Ok to clarify I wasn't talking about the actual glass but using "glass" as a term for the clarity of the optics. </div></div>

    Rob,
    I must have missed something while at dinner. No matter, I appreciate your input and value your experience. I had the 5-25 GenII XR but never mounted it. I felt the reticle too busy for what I do. </div></div>

    Just a little something. Nothing worth getting back in to.

    TM made good points. The knobs are the basic rub for most. I personally like the standard dual turn myself but found the MTC locking set up on the 3-20 to not have as heavy a detent as others I have used and don't mind it. It's always something that the service center can remove and leave you with just the locking feature. It's tough when you don't have hands on to try it out.

    Thanks Captain
    wink.gif
     
    Re: S&B Owners ONLY...... Help

    I agree on the DT and the H2CMR also in the 5-25X56 (that is what I am replacing my P4F with, and putting the P4F on the rimfire). I too never shoot under 10X, its usually on 15X to 20X but having the ability to get to 25X if need be is very nice!

    There is something to be said for the locking turrets though especially if you are using a Eberlestock pack and sliding your rifle in and out. I dont have a problem with my turrets moving in my bag, but my shooting partner had it happen once. However that being said it is so infrequent and easy to check and adjust its a nonissue. I do like the "new" MTC turrets much better than the older design.

    As far as the reticle my choice is the H2CMR, not necessarly for ranging but for more precise wind holds. As I said I am currently using a P4F and not having any holds inside a mil is just crap. Can I do it, yes but it would be much easier with the holds there. I have shot the Klein and do like it but you only get .5 mil holds. I cant honestly comment 1st hand on the H2CMR b/c its still on order but I cant see how a .2 mil hold is going to be a bad thing.

    So I would recommend the 5-25X56 H2CMR DT, but the rotation is on you. However for that I would suguest you make that decision based on the other scopes you will be using and match them.

    I hope this is what you are looking for and helps some. (even though its kind of a repeat of what others have already said)
     
    Re: S&B Owners ONLY...... Help

    Thanks for all the great info so far. I may have been under a false impression, due to much talk of the 3-20, that 5-25 was old news.
     
    Re: S&B Owners ONLY...... Help

    Far from it. 5-25 is still a great scope and used by a lot of match shooters.
     
    Re: S&B Owners ONLY...... Help

    I have a 3-20 and it's very nice. I'm thinking of selling it or trading it for a 5-25. Not because anything is wrong with the optic but because I would like to give the extra 5x a try as well as the 56mm objective.
     
    Re: S&B Owners ONLY...... Help

    Jerry,

    Jim just got a 3-20x P4F and I, as you know
    wink.gif
    have number of 5-25x P4 and Gen2 mil dot. If you're around over the next couple of weeks, lets hook up at the range and you can compare them.

    Frankly, either will do just fine for comps. 90%+ of my comp shooting is done between 8-15x so the low and high ends are of little concern (to me).

    Having owned a NF or two in the past, the benefits of the S&B will be clearer glass (subjective opinion of course) and FFP. In comps, it's nice to be able to use the same holdovers and leads regardless of the power setting.

    I've never understood hang ups of CCW vs CW on the turrets. If you want your POI to go higher, just turn so the numbers get bigger
    grin.gif


    Merry Christmas to you brotha'!
     
    Re: S&B Owners ONLY...... Help

    Jerry,

    I have a 3-20 you can play with anytime. I love mine and for where we shoot feel it is ideal. Its shorter then the 4-16 and I like the 50 mm objective. While I dont use 3x, it can be useful for observing. I put mine next to my 5-25 and still have the 3-20. I am a fan of the MTC, but the locking turrets are pointless to me.

    You know as well as I do that 25x is tough to use at Hardrock so since I rarely used it there, I opted for a smaller scope. As far as resolution and glass clarity. Each to his own, but I saw no difference.
     
    Re: S&B Owners ONLY...... Help

    you need that 3-20 Klein in the PX,,,just sayin!
     
    Re: S&B Owners ONLY...... Help

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tom Olson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">you need that 3-20 Klein in the PX,,,just sayin! </div></div>

    If only it was H2CMR.
    I really think I am set on that reticle.
     
    Re: S&B Owners ONLY...... Help

    I agree, thats why Im selling it. looks like its off to S&B for a reticle change
     
    Re: S&B Owners ONLY...... Help

    Jerry, I also agree on the H2CMR reticle. I used it at Hardrock for about three matches and absolutely loved it. The wind subtensions down to the .2 mils was great for out there. You will love it.
     
    Re: S&B Owners ONLY...... Help

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: remau308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jerry, I also agree on the H2CMR reticle. I used it at Hardrock for about three matches and absolutely loved it. The wind subtensions down to the .2 mils was great for out there. You will love it. </div></div>

    Got a line on a 3-20 H2CMR. It is CW with locking turrets. May be a go here.
    After all, I don't need to rush out and buy AR15s or hicap mags like a lot of folks do
    smile.gif
     
    Re: S&B Owners ONLY...... Help

    I opened this thread, read most of it and I don't own an S&B.

    I'm a rebel like that.
     
    Re: S&B Owners ONLY...... Help

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fdkay</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I opened this thread, read most of it and I don't own an S&B.

    I'm a rebel like that. </div></div>

    What a rebel you are sir!
    Now you may possess knowledge that will enable you to make an informed decision on your first S&B.
    How does that feel?
     
    Re: S&B Owners ONLY...... Help

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: remau308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jerry, I also agree on the H2CMR reticle. I used it at Hardrock for about three matches and absolutely loved it. The wind subtensions down to the .2 mils was great for out there. You will love it. </div></div>

    Done!
    3-20 H2CMR ordered.
     
    Re: S&B Owners ONLY...... Help

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shoot4fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: remau308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jerry, I also agree on the H2CMR reticle. I used it at Hardrock for about three matches and absolutely loved it. The wind subtensions down to the .2 mils was great for out there. You will love it. </div></div>

    Got a line on a 3-20 H2CMR. It is CW with locking turrets. May be a go here.
    After all, I don't need to rush out and buy AR15s or hicap mags like a lot of folks do
    smile.gif

    </div></div>

    I got the P4F reticle. Always loved it.
     
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