I have and S&B PMII double turn,4-16x on a GAP .308 with a 20 min. Badger rail. Had to use all but 18 min. of elevation to zero at 100 yards!! Has anyone else had this problem with S&B scopes?
Tom
Tom
Rifle Scopes S&B Problem ????
- Thread starter tspearsrph
- Start date
Re: S&B Problem ????
With a 20 MOA rail, did you you move your elevation DOWN? If you did you have that much more elevation to use at long range. Also, once you have your 100 yd zero, you need follow S&B's directions to reset the zero stop. The double turn turret has a little more complicated zero stop reset than the single turn turrets. This section of the forum has several previous threads on how to do this.
With a 20 MOA rail, did you you move your elevation DOWN? If you did you have that much more elevation to use at long range. Also, once you have your 100 yd zero, you need follow S&B's directions to reset the zero stop. The double turn turret has a little more complicated zero stop reset than the single turn turrets. This section of the forum has several previous threads on how to do this.
Re: S&B Problem ????
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tspearsrph</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have and S&B PMII double turn,4-16x on a GAP .308 with a 20 min. Badger rail. Had to use all but 18 min. of elevation to zero at 100 yards!! Has anyone else had this problem with S&B scopes?
Tom </div></div>
<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Tom</span></span> -
This is an old story that is often repeated here on the Hide' and is why I always urge people to use the proper base cant when selecting a PMII base instead of taking the blind 20 MOA base recomendation so-often given here and winding-up not having access to the full range of Elevation adjustment built into a PMII scope.
You didn't specify whether your PMII 4-16X is MIL or MOA-based, but since you said that you <span style="font-style: italic">"Had to use all but 18 min. of elevation to zero at 100 yards!!"</span> I surmise that its' MOA-based. MOA-based PMII 4-16Xs' have 56 MOA of Elevation adjustment, and - <span style="font-style: italic">if you follow S & B's recomendation for base cant selection should be mounted on a 28 MOA base.</span> <span style="font-weight: bold">PMIIs' are engineered to be used with base cants that approximate 1/2 of the total Elevation travel of the respective scope, and are mechanically preset at the factory with an UPWARD Elevation bias. In order to compensate for this mechanical offset AND to be able to dial to maximum Elevation the proper base cant must be used.</span>
28 MOA is 1/2 of an MOA-based PMII 4-16Xs' total Elevation adjustment, but a 30-35 MOA base would actually be better. This is because a 28 MOA base doesn't allow for any "UP" Elevation adjustment used while zeroing, which is typically 5-7 MOA at 100 yards. A 33-35 MOA base should put an MOA-based PMII 4-16X at the bottom of it's Elevation travel with a 100 yard zero.
I recommend that you replace your 20 MOA Badger base with a 30-35 MOA base so that you can access more of your PMII's Elevation travel. If you want to stick with a one-piece base Badger makes a <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Badger 30 MOA Picatinny Rail</span></span> that willl work, and <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">NightForce 33 MOA Picatinny Rail</span></span>. Tac Ops makes a Two-Piece Base 34 MOA base that would be perfect too.
For future reference, Tac Ops also makes 15 MOA, 24 MOA, 40 MOA, 45 MOA, and 60 MOA Two-Piece Bases as well (40-45 work best for the PMII 5-25X[56mm]s', 3-20X[50mm]s' and for the upcoming 3-20X[50mm]).
Keith
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tspearsrph</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have and S&B PMII double turn,4-16x on a GAP .308 with a 20 min. Badger rail. Had to use all but 18 min. of elevation to zero at 100 yards!! Has anyone else had this problem with S&B scopes?
Tom </div></div>
<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Tom</span></span> -
This is an old story that is often repeated here on the Hide' and is why I always urge people to use the proper base cant when selecting a PMII base instead of taking the blind 20 MOA base recomendation so-often given here and winding-up not having access to the full range of Elevation adjustment built into a PMII scope.
You didn't specify whether your PMII 4-16X is MIL or MOA-based, but since you said that you <span style="font-style: italic">"Had to use all but 18 min. of elevation to zero at 100 yards!!"</span> I surmise that its' MOA-based. MOA-based PMII 4-16Xs' have 56 MOA of Elevation adjustment, and - <span style="font-style: italic">if you follow S & B's recomendation for base cant selection should be mounted on a 28 MOA base.</span> <span style="font-weight: bold">PMIIs' are engineered to be used with base cants that approximate 1/2 of the total Elevation travel of the respective scope, and are mechanically preset at the factory with an UPWARD Elevation bias. In order to compensate for this mechanical offset AND to be able to dial to maximum Elevation the proper base cant must be used.</span>
28 MOA is 1/2 of an MOA-based PMII 4-16Xs' total Elevation adjustment, but a 30-35 MOA base would actually be better. This is because a 28 MOA base doesn't allow for any "UP" Elevation adjustment used while zeroing, which is typically 5-7 MOA at 100 yards. A 33-35 MOA base should put an MOA-based PMII 4-16X at the bottom of it's Elevation travel with a 100 yard zero.
I recommend that you replace your 20 MOA Badger base with a 30-35 MOA base so that you can access more of your PMII's Elevation travel. If you want to stick with a one-piece base Badger makes a <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Badger 30 MOA Picatinny Rail</span></span> that willl work, and <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">NightForce 33 MOA Picatinny Rail</span></span>. Tac Ops makes a Two-Piece Base 34 MOA base that would be perfect too.
For future reference, Tac Ops also makes 15 MOA, 24 MOA, 40 MOA, 45 MOA, and 60 MOA Two-Piece Bases as well (40-45 work best for the PMII 5-25X[56mm]s', 3-20X[50mm]s' and for the upcoming 3-20X[50mm]).
Keith
Re: S&B Problem ????
Aries,
If i read your post correctly, you are saying an S&B PMII needs a 28-35 min. scope base? Are you saying SB in general, or just this specific scope?
I have 3 other S&B scopes (2-double turn PMII's and a single-turn mil). None of these require that much base elevation to maximize adjustable elevation with 100 yard zero. I removed the scope in question and replaced it with the single-turn with no problems.
I guess my question is can it be possible the scope in question has a reticle or erector that is out of spec?
Aries,
If i read your post correctly, you are saying an S&B PMII needs a 28-35 min. scope base? Are you saying SB in general, or just this specific scope?
I have 3 other S&B scopes (2-double turn PMII's and a single-turn mil). None of these require that much base elevation to maximize adjustable elevation with 100 yard zero. I removed the scope in question and replaced it with the single-turn with no problems.
I guess my question is can it be possible the scope in question has a reticle or erector that is out of spec?
Re: S&B Problem ????
I have the same scope in a single turn knob on a surgeon action. No issues here.
I have the same scope in a single turn knob on a surgeon action. No issues here.
Re: S&B Problem ????
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tspearsrph</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Aries,
If i read your post correctly, you are saying an S&B PMII needs a 28-35 min. scope base? Are you saying SB in general, or just this specific scope?</div></div>
I'm talking about the 4-16Xs' in general - both MOA and MIL-based will work well with a 28-35 MOA base. A 28 MOA base is really dead-on for S & B's recommendation of using a base cant that approximates 1/2 of the total Elevation of the PMII being mounted.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tspearsrph</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have 3 other S&B scopes (2-double turn PMII's and a single-turn mil). None of these require that much base elevation to maximize adjustable elevation with 100 yard zero.</div></div>
A 20 MOA base is only 8 MOA less than the 28 MOA cant as suggested by the PMII User Manual, and PMIIs' usually have a bit of "extra" travel above what the specified travel is. As such there is typically a bit of "wiggle room" when it comes to zeroing. The height above the bore can also affect how much travel is required to zero, but only if very high rings are used.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tspearsrph</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I removed the scope in question and replaced it with the single-turn with no problems.</div></div>
When you say that you mounted <span style="font-style: italic">"the single-turn with no problems"</span> I assume that you mean that you can dial your ST to it's full (13 MILs') of travel without issue. The recommended cant for a (13 MIL ST) PMII is about 23.4 MOA, so again the 20 MOA Badger on your rifle isn't far off, and the PMIIs' usually have a bit of extra travel anyway. I would use a 28 MOA base myself, just to allow for a bit of the travel I used while zeroing.
Just out-of curiousity, have you verified that the Erector is actually the reticle with every "click" at both extremes of the adjustment range? Have you checked all of your scopes?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tspearsrph</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I guess my question is can it be possible the scope in question has a reticle or erector that is out of spec? </div></div>
Its' always possible that your scope's erector is "out-of-spec" - even Schmidt & Bender can let a "bad scope" out the door or have an erector assembly wear and become out-of-spec. Maybe the Erector isn't moving like it supposed to. I usually look at the most obvious reason for a PMII owner not getting full travel, and from what I've seen the culprit typically turns-out to be either the user mounted the scope on a base thats' too shallow or he/she didn't reset the DT Turret.
Since you only have 18 MOA of Elevation adjustment remaining after zeroing at 100 yards and your MOA-based PMII 4-16X is spec'ed at 58 MOA of Elevation travel, somewhere along the line 38+ MOA have been lost. 38 MOA of Elevation seems like an extreme amount of travel to be used for a 100 yard zero, which is one reason I was drawn to the shallow base you're using on the rifle.
The 20 MOA base mounted on your rifle is 8 MOA shy of S & B's recommended cant, and you would have used up a few MOA while zeroing-in at 100 yards (maybe 5-7 MOA)? Still, that only accounts for 13-15 MOA of travel from the "missing 38 MOA" (56 MOA - 38 MOA = 18 MOA). I think a call to S & B USA, Inc. on Tuesday morning would be prudent.
Keith
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tspearsrph</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Aries,
If i read your post correctly, you are saying an S&B PMII needs a 28-35 min. scope base? Are you saying SB in general, or just this specific scope?</div></div>
I'm talking about the 4-16Xs' in general - both MOA and MIL-based will work well with a 28-35 MOA base. A 28 MOA base is really dead-on for S & B's recommendation of using a base cant that approximates 1/2 of the total Elevation of the PMII being mounted.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tspearsrph</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have 3 other S&B scopes (2-double turn PMII's and a single-turn mil). None of these require that much base elevation to maximize adjustable elevation with 100 yard zero.</div></div>
A 20 MOA base is only 8 MOA less than the 28 MOA cant as suggested by the PMII User Manual, and PMIIs' usually have a bit of "extra" travel above what the specified travel is. As such there is typically a bit of "wiggle room" when it comes to zeroing. The height above the bore can also affect how much travel is required to zero, but only if very high rings are used.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tspearsrph</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I removed the scope in question and replaced it with the single-turn with no problems.</div></div>
When you say that you mounted <span style="font-style: italic">"the single-turn with no problems"</span> I assume that you mean that you can dial your ST to it's full (13 MILs') of travel without issue. The recommended cant for a (13 MIL ST) PMII is about 23.4 MOA, so again the 20 MOA Badger on your rifle isn't far off, and the PMIIs' usually have a bit of extra travel anyway. I would use a 28 MOA base myself, just to allow for a bit of the travel I used while zeroing.
Just out-of curiousity, have you verified that the Erector is actually the reticle with every "click" at both extremes of the adjustment range? Have you checked all of your scopes?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tspearsrph</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I guess my question is can it be possible the scope in question has a reticle or erector that is out of spec? </div></div>
Its' always possible that your scope's erector is "out-of-spec" - even Schmidt & Bender can let a "bad scope" out the door or have an erector assembly wear and become out-of-spec. Maybe the Erector isn't moving like it supposed to. I usually look at the most obvious reason for a PMII owner not getting full travel, and from what I've seen the culprit typically turns-out to be either the user mounted the scope on a base thats' too shallow or he/she didn't reset the DT Turret.
Since you only have 18 MOA of Elevation adjustment remaining after zeroing at 100 yards and your MOA-based PMII 4-16X is spec'ed at 58 MOA of Elevation travel, somewhere along the line 38+ MOA have been lost. 38 MOA of Elevation seems like an extreme amount of travel to be used for a 100 yard zero, which is one reason I was drawn to the shallow base you're using on the rifle.
The 20 MOA base mounted on your rifle is 8 MOA shy of S & B's recommended cant, and you would have used up a few MOA while zeroing-in at 100 yards (maybe 5-7 MOA)? Still, that only accounts for 13-15 MOA of travel from the "missing 38 MOA" (56 MOA - 38 MOA = 18 MOA). I think a call to S & B USA, Inc. on Tuesday morning would be prudent.
Keith
Re: S&B Problem ????
Badger also makes a 45moa base for Rem 700:
Short action
http://www.triadtactical.com/Badger-Base-306-56-Rem-700SA-45MOA.html
Long action
http://www.triadtactical.com/Badger-Base-306-57-Rem-700LA-45MOA.html
Badger also makes a 45moa base for Rem 700:
Short action
http://www.triadtactical.com/Badger-Base-306-56-Rem-700SA-45MOA.html
Long action
http://www.triadtactical.com/Badger-Base-306-57-Rem-700LA-45MOA.html
Re: S&B Problem ????
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tspearsrph</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have and S&B PMII double turn,4-16x on a GAP .308 with a 20 min. Badger rail. Had to use all but 18 min. of elevation to zero at 100 yards!! Has anyone else had this problem with S&B scopes?
Tom </div></div>
Hey <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Tom</span></span> -
I got side-tracked talking about the 20 MOA base, and just realized that I didn't ask if you ever reset the DT Turret on your MOA-based PMII 4-16X. I assumed (my bad) you had, but if you haven't, maybe thats' the problem. You'd be on the second turn (the "windows" will turn Yellow) and the Elevation would bottom-out way too early (your 18 MOA top-end).
So, did you reset your DT Turret? Since you have 2 other DT PMIIs' I figure you know how to reset the DT Turret, but on the off-chance that you've never had to reset them, forgot how, and/or for the edification of others not familiar with "windowed" PMII DT Turrets an explanation is below.
PMII DT Turrets iare different from other scopes - you don't just set the Elevation Turret to "0" once your POI coincides with the POA. The DT Turret should be reset after you "zero" the rifle. Depending upon where the DT Turret was set when you received it and/or how much "UP" you used zeroing, you may or may not need to reset it. I always do.
On the underside of the "window-type" PMII DT Turret Knob/Cap there is a little machined "barrel" with a slot on it's side. The slot in the "barrel" is engaged by a pin mounted on the Elevation Turret Assembly and actuates the revolution indicator on the inside of the DT Turret Knob/Cap ("Black"/"Clear" windows indicate that the DT Elevation Turret is on the first revolution, while "Yellow" windows indicate that the DT Elevation Turret is on the second revolution). Never force past the STOP or you'll damage the scope.
<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">To reset the PMII DT Elevation Turret:</span></span>
(1) Loosen the two (2) set screws on the Elevation Knob/Cap. Be sure to back both screws out sufficiently so that turning the Knob/Cap doesn't turn the Turret itself (and mess up your zero).
(2) <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Without lifting the Knob/Cap</span></span>, rotate the Elevation Knob/Cap <span style="font-style: italic">in the opposite direction of "UP" until the windows change from "Yellow" to "Black"/"Clear" and the Turret comes back around to "0".</span> (For a CCW [Counterclockwise] scope you turn CW [Clockwise], and for a CW [Clockwise] scope you turn CCW [Counterclockwise]).
(3) Tighten the two (2) set screws on the Elevation Knob/Cap.
<span style="font-weight: bold">Its' important that the DT Elevation Knob/Cap <span style="text-decoration: underline">IS NOT</span> lifted since the pin on the Elevation Assembly must engage the barrel on the underside of the DT Elevation Knob/Cap to actuate the Revolution Indicator on the inside of the Knob/Cap.</span>
Keith
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tspearsrph</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have and S&B PMII double turn,4-16x on a GAP .308 with a 20 min. Badger rail. Had to use all but 18 min. of elevation to zero at 100 yards!! Has anyone else had this problem with S&B scopes?
Tom </div></div>
Hey <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Tom</span></span> -
I got side-tracked talking about the 20 MOA base, and just realized that I didn't ask if you ever reset the DT Turret on your MOA-based PMII 4-16X. I assumed (my bad) you had, but if you haven't, maybe thats' the problem. You'd be on the second turn (the "windows" will turn Yellow) and the Elevation would bottom-out way too early (your 18 MOA top-end).
So, did you reset your DT Turret? Since you have 2 other DT PMIIs' I figure you know how to reset the DT Turret, but on the off-chance that you've never had to reset them, forgot how, and/or for the edification of others not familiar with "windowed" PMII DT Turrets an explanation is below.
PMII DT Turrets iare different from other scopes - you don't just set the Elevation Turret to "0" once your POI coincides with the POA. The DT Turret should be reset after you "zero" the rifle. Depending upon where the DT Turret was set when you received it and/or how much "UP" you used zeroing, you may or may not need to reset it. I always do.
On the underside of the "window-type" PMII DT Turret Knob/Cap there is a little machined "barrel" with a slot on it's side. The slot in the "barrel" is engaged by a pin mounted on the Elevation Turret Assembly and actuates the revolution indicator on the inside of the DT Turret Knob/Cap ("Black"/"Clear" windows indicate that the DT Elevation Turret is on the first revolution, while "Yellow" windows indicate that the DT Elevation Turret is on the second revolution). Never force past the STOP or you'll damage the scope.
<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">To reset the PMII DT Elevation Turret:</span></span>
(1) Loosen the two (2) set screws on the Elevation Knob/Cap. Be sure to back both screws out sufficiently so that turning the Knob/Cap doesn't turn the Turret itself (and mess up your zero).
(2) <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Without lifting the Knob/Cap</span></span>, rotate the Elevation Knob/Cap <span style="font-style: italic">in the opposite direction of "UP" until the windows change from "Yellow" to "Black"/"Clear" and the Turret comes back around to "0".</span> (For a CCW [Counterclockwise] scope you turn CW [Clockwise], and for a CW [Clockwise] scope you turn CCW [Counterclockwise]).
(3) Tighten the two (2) set screws on the Elevation Knob/Cap.
<span style="font-weight: bold">Its' important that the DT Elevation Knob/Cap <span style="text-decoration: underline">IS NOT</span> lifted since the pin on the Elevation Assembly must engage the barrel on the underside of the DT Elevation Knob/Cap to actuate the Revolution Indicator on the inside of the Knob/Cap.</span>
Keith
Re: S&B Problem ????
I have a question that I hope someone can shed some light on: I have a S&B PM11 5 x 25 mounted in the factory 3 ring TRG mount which clamps directly to receiverof the TRGs'. My scope is zeroed at 100 yards and is zeroed at 5 clicks above bottom, this gives me about 60 MOA adjustment if I recall correctly. Does anyone know the cant built into these 3 ring mounts ? If you measure the front and back of base there quite a difference in rail height( will check and edit later ,actual difference ).
Thanks for any info.
I have a question that I hope someone can shed some light on: I have a S&B PM11 5 x 25 mounted in the factory 3 ring TRG mount which clamps directly to receiverof the TRGs'. My scope is zeroed at 100 yards and is zeroed at 5 clicks above bottom, this gives me about 60 MOA adjustment if I recall correctly. Does anyone know the cant built into these 3 ring mounts ? If you measure the front and back of base there quite a difference in rail height( will check and edit later ,actual difference ).
Thanks for any info.
Re: S&B Problem ????
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: signut</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have a question that I hope someone can shed some light on: I have a S&B PM11 5 x 25 mounted in the factory 3 ring TRG mount which clamps directly to receiverof the TRGs'. My scope is zeroed at 100 yards and is zeroed at 5 clicks above bottom, this gives me about 60 MOA adjustment if I recall correctly. Does anyone know the cant built into these 3 ring mounts ? If you measure the front and back of base there quite a difference in rail height( will check and edit later ,actual difference ).
Thanks for any info. </div></div>
30 MOA
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: signut</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have a question that I hope someone can shed some light on: I have a S&B PM11 5 x 25 mounted in the factory 3 ring TRG mount which clamps directly to receiverof the TRGs'. My scope is zeroed at 100 yards and is zeroed at 5 clicks above bottom, this gives me about 60 MOA adjustment if I recall correctly. Does anyone know the cant built into these 3 ring mounts ? If you measure the front and back of base there quite a difference in rail height( will check and edit later ,actual difference ).
Thanks for any info. </div></div>
30 MOA
Re: S&B Problem ????
Aries,
Thanks for your replies. Yes, I know about the double-turn reset, etc. My other double-turns do fine on a 20-min. rail with
100 yd zero.
Just for giggles, I set the scope in question at its lowest elevation setting and fired. It was waaaay low, maybe a couple of feet.
I think I will give S&B a call. Do you (or anyone) have experience with SB customer service....good or bad?
Aries,
Thanks for your replies. Yes, I know about the double-turn reset, etc. My other double-turns do fine on a 20-min. rail with
100 yd zero.
Just for giggles, I set the scope in question at its lowest elevation setting and fired. It was waaaay low, maybe a couple of feet.
I think I will give S&B a call. Do you (or anyone) have experience with SB customer service....good or bad?
Re: S&B Problem ????
Good it just take a little bit for you to receive your scope back. If you ask they might have a loaner available so your only without a scope for a few days.
Good it just take a little bit for you to receive your scope back. If you ask they might have a loaner available so your only without a scope for a few days.
Re: S&B Problem ????
I am actually going to go for either 50MOA or 64MOA up on my 338LM... 40MOA is not near close enough to zero the rifle at 100 yards without eating up a bunch of travel on the scope, losing at least 3 full MIL on my 5x25 MIL/MIL PMII.
I am actually going to go for either 50MOA or 64MOA up on my 338LM... 40MOA is not near close enough to zero the rifle at 100 yards without eating up a bunch of travel on the scope, losing at least 3 full MIL on my 5x25 MIL/MIL PMII.
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