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SABRE DEFENCE, CEO arrested along with 5 employees

Emouse

Emouse

0A
Full Member
Minuteman
Aug 11, 2009
207
16
London, U.K
NASHVILLE — Prosecutors say the owner and operators of a Tennessee weapons manufacturer have been indicted by a federal grand jury on charges that they illegally exported firearms components to the United Kingdom.

The 21-count indictment was unsealed on Tuesday, charging five individuals at Sabre Defence Industries LLC, a Nashville-based weapons manufacturer. Sabre, whose highest-volume client is the U.S. military, makes M16 rifles and .50-caliber machine-gun barrels.

The indictment alleges that the five people were part of a conspiracy to illegally import and export firearms and components to and from the United States. They have been accused of violating the Arms Export Control Act.

Prosecutors say the owner of Sabre, 42-year-old Guy Savage, directed the illegal activities from his home in the United Kingdom and from a related company, Sabre Defence Industries LTD, a UK-based weapons manufacturer and importer also owned by Savage.

No one answered a call seeking comment at Sabre's Nashville office.
 
full story on SABRE DEFENCE arrests

WASHINGTON – February 8, 2011 – Five individuals and a Nashville, Tenn., firearms manufacturer have been indicted by a federal grand jury on charges relating to international firearms and trafficking violations of the Arms Export Control Act (AECA), announced Assistant Attorney General Lanny A. Breuer of the Criminal Division; U.S. Attorney Jerry E. Martin for the Middle District of Tennessee; Special Agent in Charge Glenn N. Anderson of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) Nashville Field Division; and Special Agent in Charge Raymond R. Parmer Jr. for Homeland Security Investigations’ (HSI) New Orleans Office.
The defendants named in the 21-count indictment unsealed today are Guy Savage, 42, a citizen of the United Kingdom; Sabre Defence Industries LLC (SDI-US), a Nashville-based arms manufacturer owned by Savage; Charles Shearon, 55, of Ashland City, Tenn., and president of SDI-US; Elmer Hill, 64, of Brentwood, Tenn., and chief financial officer of SDI-US; Michael Curlett, 44, of Hermitage, Tenn., and director of sales for SDI-US; and Arnold See Jr., 54, of Antioch, Tenn., who is the international shipping and purchasing manager of SDI-US. According to the indictment, the defendants were part of a conspiracy to illegally import and export regulated firearms and firearm components and technology to and from the United States. The indictment alleges that Savage directed the illegal activities from his personal residences in the United Kingdom, as well as from a related company owned by Savage, Sabre Defence Industries LTD (SDI-UK), which is a licensed manufacturer, distributor and importer of firearms and firearms headquartered in the United Kingdom.
“The indictment unsealed today alleges a nearly decade-long scheme to thwart U.S. import/export restrictions on firearms and their components,” said Assistant Attorney General Breuer. “The defendants allegedly went to great lengths to conceal their activities and evade U.S. laws – mislabeling packages, falsifying shipping records, and maintaining a fictitious set of books and records, among other things. The illegal trade of firearms and their components poses serious risks and, as this case shows, we cannot and will not tolerate it.”
“The investigation and indictment are an excellent example of how the United States Attorney’s Office, the Criminal Division, HSI, ATF and international law enforcement agencies are working together to prevent firearms and firearm components from being diverted to locations around the world,” said U.S. Attorney Martin. “We recognize the role that weapons play in a sometimes violent world and we will vigorously enforce the laws to prevent the illegal importation of firearms and firearm components.”
The indictment alleges that each of the defendants conspired to intentionally violate the AECA by causing firearms components, which are listed as defense articles on the U.S. Munitions List (USML), to be exported from the United States to an international location without first obtaining a license or written authorization for such export from the Directorate of Defense Trade Controls (DDTC) of the U.S. Department of State. According to the indictment, the export of defense articles, such as firearms, firearms components or other military items on the USML are strictly controlled by the AECA and regulations, known as the International Trafficking in Arms Regulations (ITAR). The indictment alleges that the defendants had been engaged in the illegal import and export activities since at least 2003. The indictment references specific shipping documents and internal e-mail communications in which the defendants and others, including SDI-US and SDI-UK employees, conspired to illegally avoid U.S. import and export laws and regulations in order to smuggle firearm components into and from the United States by falsifying shipping records, concealing unlicensed firearms components in false bottoms of shipping cartons, and mislabeling and undervaluing shipments of firearm components to avoid scrutiny by U.S. Customs and Border Control Officers.
The indictment also alleges that, to accomplish their illegal activities, the defendants, along with other conspirators, used e-mail accounts and other forms of communication to communicate with each other and with other individuals located in the United States, the United Kingdom and elsewhere. According to the indictment, Savage allegedly repeatedly urged the other defendants and SDI-US employees to ship firearms components located in the United States to SDI-UK, without first obtaining an export license or permission. In addition, Savage allegedly specifically directed the employees of SDI-US to mislabel and undervalue export shipments of firearms components from the United States to SDI-UK, in order to evade the prohibitions and licensing requirements of AECA and the ITAR.
In addition, according to the indictment, the defendants used international common carriers to ship restricted defense items to and from the United States, and sought to conceal their activities by maintaining two sets of business books to record the company’s accounts and balances, and its export and import activities. The indictment alleges that one set of books recorded the true transactions by SDI-US, and a second set recorded the undervalued amounts used on shipping manifests in an effort to circumvent U.S. export licensing requirements.
“HSI is committed to bringing to justice any person or organization willing to circumvent the laws of the United States,” said Special Agent in Charge Parmer of HSI in New Orleans. “The illegal import, export, and domestic sale or transfer of firearms, firearm parts, and technical data is controlled for good reason; in the wrong hands, these items could be used to harm America or its allies. Enforcing U.S. export laws is one of HSI’s top priorities and we will continue to work with our law enforcement and industry partners to ensure that those who put our country at risk face appropriate consequences.”
“The indictment and lengthy law enforcement activities in Tennessee, England and elsewhere send a clear message. ATF and our law enforcement partners will not stand for those accused of conspiring to violate the federal firearms laws and illegally importing/exporting weapons, components and other items of their choice,” said ATF Special Agent in Charge Glenn Anderson. “The risk is too great. Crime and the potential for violence around any corner knows no border or boundary. Today, two countries and countless neighborhoods, both foreign and domestic, are much better off.”
Savage was arrested today in the United Kingdom by the London Metropolitan Police Service, based on the United States’ request for his extradition. The remaining defendants will be issued a summons to appear in U.S. District Court in Nashville.
Each count of violating the AECA carries a maximum penalty of 20 years in prison and a $1 million fine. The conspiracy and making false statements charges each carry a maximum penalty of five years in prison and a $250,000 fine. The maximum penalty, if convicted of wire and mail fraud, is 20 years in prison and a $250,000 fine for each count. Finally, the smuggling goods from the United States charge carries a maximum penalty of 10 years in prison and a $250,000 fine.
The indictment was the result of an investigation conducted by HSI and ATF, with assistance from the London Metropolitan Police Service, International Assistance Unit.
The case is being prosecuted by Assistant U.S. Attorney John K. Webb of the Middle District of Tennessee and Trial Attorney John S. Han of the Criminal Division’s Organized Crime and Racketeering Section. Additional assistance was provided by the Criminal Division’s Office of International Affairs and the National Security Division.
 
Re: full story on SABRE DEFENCE arrests

This must be the result of that raid that was what, 1-2 years ago now?
 
Re: full story on SABRE DEFENCE arrests

Proving once again that being stupid (and greedy) really <span style="text-decoration: underline">HURTS</span> sometimes!!

FWIW, I have a complete copy of the indictment (which is 45pgs long incl. the criminal cover pages for each defendant) and its a doozy. If it is one thing about the feds you can usually bet on...you can bet that they have their ducks in a row and more than ample evidence (incl. photos, video, bank records, wire-taps, sworn staements, data from the raid last February, etc., etc.) by the time they move forward with an indictment like this. It doesn't look good for Guy et al. at this point based on what I see in the indictment, but as with every defendant in this country...they are INNOCENT until proven GUILTY!
 
Re: full story on SABRE DEFENCE arrests

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ORD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Proving once again that being stupid (and greedy) really <span style="text-decoration: underline">HURTS</span> sometimes!!

</div></div>

Not to mention, once the dust settles this will also adversely impact all legitimate manufacturers and dealers who are just trying to make an honest living.
 
Re: full story on SABRE DEFENCE arrests

Just wait till they add Tax evasion. State Dept., ATF and IRS oh my!

It is a ton of paperwork and a lot of fees to do it right (I know). But the consequences are much worse. At least, I now have an example to people who want me to label a barrel as an axle or some other stupid thing.
 
Re: full story on SABRE DEFENCE arrests

Could it be Sabre and the US Military had a major disagreement and this could all be a scam to get Sabre disbanded and a new contractor to take its place? This is greed by the Government. They take those same guns and sell them over seas, third world countries, everything. This is bullshit I hate about our country. I dont see what the big deal is? Our government supplies all sorts of 3rd world countries and terrorists with weapons all the time. So now that an American company is selling weapons to an Ally, its wrong? But the government can sell weapons to Pakistan and Afghanistan, but a legit company affiliated with the Military cannot sell weapons to Britain? Complete bullshit.
 
Re: full story on SABRE DEFENCE arrests

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ram4X4</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Could it be Sabre and the US Military had a major disagreement and this could all be a scam to get Sabre disbanded and a new contractor to take its place? This is greed by the Government. They take those same guns and sell them over seas, third world countries, everything. This is bullshit I hate about our country. I dont see what the big deal is? Our government supplies all sorts of 3rd world countries and terrorists with weapons all the time. So now that an American company is selling weapons to an Ally, its wrong? But the government can sell weapons to Pakistan and Afghanistan, but a legit company affiliated with the Military cannot sell weapons to Britain? Complete bullshit. </div></div>

Or maybe its the Tri-Lateral commission.
 
Re: full story on SABRE DEFENCE arrests

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ram4X4</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Could it be Sabre and the US Military had a major disagreement and this could all be a scam to get Sabre disbanded and a new contractor to take its place? This is greed by the Government. They take those same guns and sell them over seas, third world countries, everything. This is bullshit I hate about our country. I dont see what the big deal is? Our government supplies all sorts of 3rd world countries and terrorists with weapons all the time. So now that an American company is selling weapons to an Ally, its wrong? But the government can sell weapons to Pakistan and Afghanistan, but a legit company affiliated with the Military cannot sell weapons to Britain? Complete bullshit. </div></div>


Yes you are correct about ITAR. U.K companies struggle to do any legitimate business due to ITAR restrictions. It stiffles business and ultimately stops US companies expanding and or retaining employees.

Savage however has had multiple problems with the Aauthorities in the US and UK, including being questioned about a large consignment of MAC-10 blank firers that he sold to someone that modified them for criminal gang usage. A former employee of the UK arm is also awaiting sentancing for serious firearms charges relating to his employ with SABRE.

It certainly doesn't look like a Government scam given the volumous evidence presented?
 
Re: full story on SABRE DEFENCE arrests

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Brutas</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just wait till they add Tax evasion. State Dept., ATF and IRS oh my!

It is a ton of paperwork and a lot of fees to do it right (I know). But the consequences are much worse. At least, I now have an example to people who want me to label a barrel as an axle or some other stupid thing.</div></div>

The DSP83 is simple enough,..its the crazy fees to seller and recipient combined with long waits and more often than not refusal without reason.

Even when authority to export is granted the final cost is way above what the market will support.
 
Re: full story on SABRE DEFENCE arrests

Sad day for gun enthusiasts everywhere. What new anti-gun legislation will come out of this next? Whatever the scenario may be it is us as end users that will be hurt the most.
 
Re: full story on SABRE DEFENCE arrests

Something tells me the politicians curtailed the whole no new anti gun legislation by handing free reign to those turds in the batfe. Even if they are found not guilty the burden of their defense bills will most likely leave them high and dry, unable to get back to it..
 
Re: full story on SABRE DEFENCE arrests

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ram4X4</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Could it be Sabre and the US Military had a major disagreement and this could all be a scam to get Sabre disbanded and a new contractor to take its place? This is greed by the Government. They take those same guns and sell them over seas, third world countries, everything. This is bullshit I hate about our country. I dont see what the big deal is? Our government supplies all sorts of 3rd world countries and terrorists with weapons all the time. So now that an American company is selling weapons to an Ally, its wrong? But the government can sell weapons to Pakistan and Afghanistan, but a legit company affiliated with the Military cannot sell weapons to Britain? Complete bullshit. </div></div>
There is only one big dog allowed between the Atlantic and the Pacific and once in a while he comes out of his house finds and eats one of the lil dogs just to remind the rest of the pack who is actually in charge runnin the show, his name is Uncle Sam. Dont fk with him
 
Re: full story on SABRE DEFENCE arrests

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Emouse</div><div class="ubbcode-body">WASHINGTON – February 8, 2011 – Five individuals and a Nashville, Tenn., firearms manufacturer have been indicted by a federal grand jury on charges relating to international firearms and trafficking violations of the Arms Export Control Act (AECA), announced Assistant Attorney General Lanny A. Breuer of the Criminal Division; U.S. Attorney Jerry E. Martin for the Middle District of Tennessee; Special Agent in Charge Glenn N. Anderson of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) Nashville Field Division; and Special Agent in Charge Raymond R. Parmer Jr. for Homeland Security Investigations’ (HSI) New Orleans Office.

The defendants named in the 21-count indictment unsealed today are Guy Savage, 42, a citizen of the United Kingdom; Sabre Defence Industries LLC (SDI-US), a Nashville-based arms manufacturer owned by Savage; Charles Shearon, 55, of Ashland City, Tenn., and president of SDI-US; Elmer Hill, 64, of Brentwood, Tenn., and chief financial officer of SDI-US; Michael Curlett, 44, of Hermitage, Tenn., and director of sales for SDI-US; and Arnold See Jr., 54, of Antioch, Tenn., who is the international shipping and purchasing manager of SDI-US. According to the indictment, the defendants were part of a conspiracy to illegally import and export regulated firearms and firearm components and technology to and from the United States. The indictment alleges that Savage directed the illegal activities from his personal residences in the United Kingdom, as well as from a related company owned by Savage, Sabre Defence Industries LTD (SDI-UK), which is a licensed manufacturer, distributor and importer of firearms and firearms headquartered in the United Kingdom.

“The indictment unsealed today alleges a nearly decade-long scheme to thwart U.S. import/export restrictions on firearms and their components,” said Assistant Attorney General Breuer. “The defendants allegedly went to great lengths to conceal their activities and evade U.S. laws – mislabeling packages, falsifying shipping records, and maintaining a fictitious set of books and records, among other things. The illegal trade of firearms and their components poses serious risks and, as this case shows, we cannot and will not tolerate it.”

“The investigation and indictment are an excellent example of how the United States Attorney’s Office, the Criminal Division, HSI, ATF and international law enforcement agencies are working together to prevent firearms and firearm components from being diverted to locations around the world,” said U.S. Attorney Martin. “We recognize the role that weapons play in a sometimes violent world and we will vigorously enforce the laws to prevent the illegal importation of firearms and firearm components.”

The indictment alleges that each of the defendants conspired to intentionally violate the AECA by causing firearms components, which are listed as defense articles on the U.S. Munitions List (USML), to be exported from the United States to an international location without first obtaining a license or written authorization for such export from the Directorate of Defense Trade Controls (DDTC) of the U.S. Department of State. According to the indictment, the export of defense articles, such as firearms, firearms components or other military items on the USML are strictly controlled by the AECA and regulations, known as the International Trafficking in Arms Regulations (ITAR). The indictment alleges that the defendants had been engaged in the illegal import and export activities since at least 2003. The indictment references specific shipping documents and internal e-mail communications in which the defendants and others, including SDI-US and SDI-UK employees, conspired to illegally avoid U.S. import and export laws and regulations in order to smuggle firearm components into and from the United States by falsifying shipping records, concealing unlicensed firearms components in false bottoms of shipping cartons, and mislabeling and undervaluing shipments of firearm components to avoid scrutiny by U.S. Customs and Border Control Officers.

The indictment also alleges that, to accomplish their illegal activities, the defendants, along with other conspirators, used e-mail accounts and other forms of communication to communicate with each other and with other individuals located in the United States, the United Kingdom and elsewhere. According to the indictment, Savage allegedly repeatedly urged the other defendants and SDI-US employees to ship firearms components located in the United States to SDI-UK, without first obtaining an export license or permission. In addition, Savage allegedly specifically directed the employees of SDI-US to mislabel and undervalue export shipments of firearms components from the United States to SDI-UK, in order to evade the prohibitions and licensing requirements of AECA and the ITAR.

In addition, according to the indictment, the defendants used international common carriers to ship restricted defense items to and from the United States, and sought to conceal their activities by maintaining two sets of business books to record the company’s accounts and balances, and its export and import activities. The indictment alleges that one set of books recorded the true transactions by SDI-US, and a second set recorded the undervalued amounts used on shipping manifests in an effort to circumvent U.S. export licensing requirements.

“HSI is committed to bringing to justice any person or organization willing to circumvent the laws of the United States,” said Special Agent in Charge Parmer of HSI in New Orleans. “The illegal import, export, and domestic sale or transfer of firearms, firearm parts, and technical data is controlled for good reason; in the wrong hands, these items could be used to harm America or its allies. Enforcing U.S. export laws is one of HSI’s top priorities and we will continue to work with our law enforcement and industry partners to ensure that those who put our country at risk face appropriate consequences.”

“The indictment and lengthy law enforcement activities in Tennessee, England and elsewhere send a clear message. ATF and our law enforcement partners will not stand for those accused of conspiring to violate the federal firearms laws and illegally importing/exporting weapons, components and other items of their choice,” said ATF Special Agent in Charge Glenn Anderson. “The risk is too great. Crime and the potential for violence around any corner knows no border or boundary. Today, two countries and countless neighborhoods, both foreign and domestic, are much better off.”
Savage was arrested today in the United Kingdom by the London Metropolitan Police Service, based on the United States’ request for his extradition. The remaining defendants will be issued a summons to appear in U.S. District Court in Nashville.

Each count of violating the AECA carries a maximum penalty of 20 years in prison and a $1 million fine. The conspiracy and making false statements charges each carry a maximum penalty of five years in prison and a $250,000 fine. The maximum penalty, if convicted of wire and mail fraud, is 20 years in prison and a $250,000 fine for each count. Finally, the smuggling goods from the United States charge carries a maximum penalty of 10 years in prison and a $250,000 fine.

The indictment was the result of an investigation conducted by HSI and ATF, with assistance from the London Metropolitan Police Service, International Assistance Unit.

The case is being prosecuted by Assistant U.S. Attorney John K. Webb of the Middle District of Tennessee and Trial Attorney John S. Han of the Criminal Division’s Organized Crime and Racketeering Section. Additional assistance was provided by the Criminal Division’s Office of International Affairs and the National Security Division.</div></div>

Global Gun Case Involves Local Company
<span style="font-style: italic">Reported by: Sean Carroll
Published: 1/27 7:33 pm</span>

Chili, N.Y. --- On Friday a German man will appear in Rochester’s Federal Courthouse to answer to charges related to an international gun smuggling operation. Authorities claim 56 year-old Karl Kleber illegally sold AK-47 drum magazines to a Chili-based gun business; American Tactical Imports (ATI) and its sister-company AmChar.

The basis for the smuggling charge Kleber now faces is a shipment of 5,760 75-round AK-47 drum magazines that federal agents believe were manufactured in China. The magazines simply hold additional rounds of ammunition for the AK-47 which is one of the most popular and prevalent machine guns in the world. It is also illegal to import those accessories from into the United States if they were made in China.

Agents believe that’s exactly what happened when that shipment of drum magazines arrived at AmChar and ATI’s headquarters on Airport Road in Chili back in 2008.



Federal hearing may offer details on raid at Chili arms dealer
<span style="font-style: italic">Gary Craig – Staff writer
Local News – January 28, 2011 - 5:00am</span>

A federal court hearing today may provide details about an ongoing investigation into whether illegal AK-47 magazines were imported into the United States for purchase by a Chili-based firearms dealer.

A detention hearing for Karl Kleber, a European man accused of selling the magazine drums, is scheduled for 11 a.m. before a federal magistrate judge. Meanwhile, Gary Hyde, a British man accused of the same crimes, is jailed in Nevada and may come to Rochester soon — either still detained or free with court-ordered restrictions — to face charges.

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/arti...ili-arms-dealer
 
Re: full story on SABRE DEFENCE arrests

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ram4X4</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Could it be Sabre and the US Military had a major disagreement and this could all be a scam to get Sabre disbanded and a new contractor to take its place? This is greed by the Government. </div></div>

Really, government conspiracy???

Bet you don't think we made it to the moon either, huh?



As for the original topic, wow, dumb idea, THATS greed, but by a company. Wonder how long this'll get drawn out.
 
Re: full story on SABRE DEFENCE arrests

No telling how long it will get drawn out but there is a good chance after the tax payer gets finished paying for it all the average man will have been better off if it wouldn't have went to court. Couple million in court fees, food, clothes, medical care, facility fees, personal salary for their jail time. Then when they get it out they can get food stamps due to their condition.
 
Re: full story on SABRE DEFENCE arrests

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sgtbutt</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sad day for gun enthusiasts everywhere. What new anti-gun legislation will come out of this next? Whatever the scenario may be it is us as end users that will be hurt the most. </div></div>

+1 on that! Savage and that other person caught illegally importing Chinese made AK mags are a bunch of selfish SOBs who are not only going to make life more difficult for all of us but also give the industry and the honest hardworking people who work in it a very bad name.
 
Re: full story on SABRE DEFENCE arrests

I have a saber M5 barrel on one of my rifle. Kind of strange seeing them go down like this...
 
Re: full story on SABRE DEFENCE arrests

Probably the main reason Sabre is is bank ordered forclosure sale this month liqiudating all assets. Too bad we can't do a group buy all equiptment and inventory is up for sale. Bad side is they made some very fine equipment. As a FFL dealer I have stocked and sold Sabre platforms for 4-5 years and own a couple myself. T hey are better fit and function than most factory AR systems on the market.
 
Re: SABRE DEFENCE, CEO arrested along with 5 employees

Importing and exporting back and forth between two factorys owned by the same company.

<span style="font-style: italic">"The indictment alleges that one set of books recorded the true transactions by SDI-US, and a second set recorded the undervalued amounts used on shipping manifests in an effort to circumvent U.S. export licensing requirements." </span>

Looks like they were trying to also save money on manufactureing. Im sure more information will come out but I doubt that these guys were selling guns to the taliban and friends. These guys were a well respected military contractor. Stupid yes, evil gun brokers? Ill hold my judgement.
 
Re: full story on SABRE DEFENCE arrests

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KSwift</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ram4X4</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Could it be Sabre and the US Military had a major disagreement and this could all be a scam to get Sabre disbanded and a new contractor to take its place? This is greed by the Government. </div></div>

Really, government conspiracy???

Bet you don't think we made it to the moon either, huh?



As for the original topic, wow, dumb idea, THATS greed, but by a company. Wonder how long this'll get drawn out. </div></div>

He's entitled to his opinion dumb ass. First Amendment look it up.
 
Re: full story on SABRE DEFENCE arrests

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Re25</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Importing and exporting back and forth between two factorys owned by the same company.

<span style="font-style: italic">"The indictment alleges that one set of books recorded the true transactions by SDI-US, and a second set recorded the undervalued amounts used on shipping manifests in an effort to circumvent U.S. export licensing requirements." </span>

Looks like they were trying to also save money on manufactureing. Im sure more information will come out but I doubt that these guys were selling guns to the taliban and friends. These guys were a well respected military contractor. Stupid yes, evil gun brokers? Ill hold my judgement.</div></div>

You need to read the complete thread,...Savage and his employees have had serious legal issues going back some time hardly a "respected" figure in the industry!
 
Re: SABRE DEFENCE, CEO arrested along with 5 employees

There is no logical reason for a company that can produce <span style="font-style: italic">any</span> kind of weapon it desires in the US to "import" its evil components into the US. Unless it is an efficiency reason, maybe to meet an order deadline? or the need to use its manufactureing resources in the UK? My point is, after reading the post (again), it is still 95% about taxes that were skirted (for whatever reason) with 5% undefined fear. They know it all but choose to leave out the names of the undisclosed country that may or may not be an allied nation. This in my opinion was a very important point, the most important and would likly change my opinion if proved that the nation was hostile.

This accusation is boxed, packaged and pushed by the international community who think guns can be only used for evil and governments wanting their share. If innocent people were being killed by this companys actions the the authorities should be held accountable for letting it happen for the last 8 years.

I will still hold my opinion that they were stupid in their business practices. I sure you have a different opinion being from the UK, Savage is your evil guy anyway.
 
Re: SABRE DEFENCE, CEO arrested along with 5 employees

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Re25</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is no logical reason for a company that can produce <span style="font-style: italic">any</span> kind of weapon it desires in the US to "import" its evil components into the US. Unless it is an efficiency reason, maybe to meet an order deadline? or the need to use its manufactureing resources in the UK? My point is, after reading the post (again), it is still 95% about taxes that were skirted (for whatever reason) with 5% undefined fear. They know it all but choose to leave out the names of the undisclosed country that may or may not be an allied nation. This in my opinion was a very important point, the most important and would likly change my opinion if proved that the nation was hostile.

This accusation is boxed, packaged and pushed by the international community who think guns can be only used for evil and governments wanting their share. If innocent people were being killed by this companys actions the the authorities should be held accountable for letting it happen for the last 8 years.

I will still hold my opinion that they were stupid in their business practices. I sure you have a different opinion being from the UK, Savage is your evil guy anyway. </div></div>

If people are only going to read the @#$%^*& "media" accounts of what is going on with this situation, then naturally the facts and true issues at hand are going to be clouded (funny how the media does that to people). The media's job is to sell papers/subscriptions/increase ratings/etc. If they can report a story "factually" and yet still put a spin on it to get their "5% undefined fear" effect (your words...not mine), then they'll do it because IT SELLS. It is your job as the reader to read between the lines.

The indictment (all 45pgs of it) clearly sets out ALL of the issues truly at hand with Sabre, its ownership/management, and the allegations against the defendants of illegal conduct in violation of federal law.

There are zero, REPEAT ZERO, allegations/facts plead in the indictment relating to any sales or transactions by Sabre to any terrorist nation, "suspicious party", rogue third-world junta, etc. There are no facts whatsoever that Sabre was doing anything of the sort. Believe me when I tell you that if they had ANY sort of evidence suggesting that arms sales to the "baddies" was going on, they'd have charged them with it so fast their heads would have spun off because, like the media, USAs/AUSAs have agendas as well! If they have facts/evidence to support charges under the Patriot Act or other source of federal law to charge a US-based company, US citizens and a UK national of supporting/harboring terrorist acitivies, you can be your ass it would have been filed. That is just simply NOT the case here.

The "other" nation involved was FINLAND for heaven's sake and those issues dealt with Sabre's attempts to illegally IMPORT INTO THE US parts/materials for suppressor manufacturing that was to take place here in the US (for sale/use in US Govt contracts)!

What was being done, regardless of how people want to classify the action of Savage, et al., were a long, drawn-out series of stupid, greedy maneuvers designed intentionally to avoid compliance with US import/export laws that Savage deemed unfair/unjust/etc. in the name of making money, keeping US Gov't contracts, etc., etc. The indictment is full of direct quotes from communications both within and outside the company wherein Savage et al. were conspiring to fraudulently and illegally export firearms components from the US to the UK, and import components from Finland to the US, using various methods of "book-cooking", erroneously listing firearms components as other parts/etc. and with significantly reduced values on shipping manifests to avoid permitting/licensing requirements, and so on and so on.

As for the reputations of Savage et al., I don't know the man or his employees personally and am in no position to comment on their reputations other than what I have seen/read or heard from others, so I will hold judgment. HOWEVER, this isn't their first time of being in hot water for some highly questionable activities and this time...all evidence thus far points to them preparing for a royal ass ripping when the dust settles from their latest alleged criminal activities.
 
Re: SABRE DEFENCE, CEO arrested along with 5 employees

Well said ORD, greed or whatever it was wrong. The intent of the law is to keep ordnance out of the hands of bad guys. I just didnt see that accusation being made well in the article. That was my point.

It really doesent matter what I think anyway, I have no influence on the matter.
 
Re: SABRE DEFENCE, CEO arrested along with 5 employees

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ORD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Re25</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is no logical reason for a company that can produce <span style="font-style: italic">any</span> kind of weapon it desires in the US to "import" its evil components into the US. Unless it is an efficiency reason, maybe to meet an order deadline? or the need to use its manufactureing resources in the UK? My point is, after reading the post (again), it is still 95% about taxes that were skirted (for whatever reason) with 5% undefined fear. They know it all but choose to leave out the names of the undisclosed country that may or may not be an allied nation. This in my opinion was a very important point, the most important and would likly change my opinion if proved that the nation was hostile.

This accusation is boxed, packaged and pushed by the international community who think guns can be only used for evil and governments wanting their share. If innocent people were being killed by this companys actions the the authorities should be held accountable for letting it happen for the last 8 years.

I will still hold my opinion that they were stupid in their business practices. I sure you have a different opinion being from the UK, Savage is your evil guy anyway. </div></div>

If people are only going to read the @#$%^*& "media" accounts of what is going on with this situation, then naturally the facts and true issues at hand are going to be clouded (funny how the media does that to people). The media's job is to sell papers/subscriptions/increase ratings/etc. If they can report a story "factually" and yet still put a spin on it to get their "5% undefined fear" effect (your words...not mine), then they'll do it because IT SELLS. It is your job as the reader to read between the lines.

The indictment (all 45pgs of it) clearly sets out ALL of the issues truly at hand with Sabre, its ownership/management, and the allegations against the defendants of illegal conduct in violation of federal law.

There are zero, REPEAT ZERO, allegations/facts plead in the indictment relating to any sales or transactions by Sabre to any terrorist nation, "suspicious party", rogue third-world junta, etc. There are no facts whatsoever that Sabre was doing anything of the sort. Believe me when I tell you that if they had ANY sort of evidence suggesting that arms sales to the "baddies" was going on, they'd have charged them with it so fast their heads would have spun off because, like the media, USAs/AUSAs have agendas as well! If they have facts/evidence to support charges under the Patriot Act or other source of federal law to charge a US-based company, US citizens and a UK national of supporting/harboring terrorist acitivies, you can be your ass it would have been filed. That is just simply NOT the case here.

The "other" nation involved was FINLAND for heaven's sake and those issues dealt with Sabre's attempts to illegally IMPORT INTO THE US parts/materials for suppressor manufacturing that was to take place here in the US (for sale/use in US Govt contracts)!

What was being done, regardless of how people want to classify the action of Savage, et al., were a long, drawn-out series of stupid, greedy maneuvers designed intentionally to avoid compliance with US import/export laws that Savage deemed unfair/unjust/etc. in the name of making money, keeping US Gov't contracts, etc., etc. The indictment is full of direct quotes from communications both within and outside the company wherein Savage et al. were conspiring to fraudulently and illegally export firearms components from the US to the UK, and import components from Finland to the US, using various methods of "book-cooking", erroneously listing firearms components as other parts/etc. and with significantly reduced values on shipping manifests to avoid permitting/licensing requirements, and so on and so on.

As for the reputations of Savage et al., I don't know the man or his employees personally and am in no position to comment on their reputations other than what I have seen/read or heard from others, so I will hold judgment. HOWEVER, this isn't their first time of being in hot water for some highly questionable activities and this time...all evidence thus far points to them preparing for a royal ass ripping when the dust settles from their latest alleged criminal activities.</div></div>

Very well written and absoluteley spot on in content!
 
Re: full story on SABRE DEFENCE arrests

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KSwift</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ram4X4</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Could it be Sabre and the US Military had a major disagreement and this could all be a scam to get Sabre disbanded and a new contractor to take its place? This is greed by the Government. </div></div>

Really, government conspiracy???

Bet you don't think we made it to the moon either, huh?



As for the original topic, wow, dumb idea, THATS greed, but by a company. Wonder how long this'll get drawn out. </div></div>

We didnt make it to the moon. If we did 40 years ago, we would have houses on it now or atleast gone back. They barely had tv's back then, we have tv's in our pocets now. We didnt have wireless anything back then, we have wireless everything now.

And he has the right to think what he wants.
 
Re: full story on SABRE DEFENCE arrests

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: J.J. McQuade</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Innocent until proven guilty.
Let's let them have their day in court before we convict them ourselves. </div></div>

Well said!
 
Re: full story on SABRE DEFENCE arrests

LOL

-Didn't make it to the moon
-Elvis isn't dead
-Shooter in the grassy knoll
-The gov blew up the trade center towers
-And a cruise missile hit the pentagon


Yup, you do have the right to believe whatever ridiculous government conspiracy non-sense you want; and you have the right to voice that opinion. But we also have the right to say those holding such opinions are morons. Good Day
 
Re: full story on SABRE DEFENCE arrests

Oh, and on the subject at hand; if they were doing the things outlined, they broke the law and THAT is simply not acceptable. All others follow the rules and thus pay the expenses.
 
Re: full story on SABRE DEFENCE arrests

Anyone can be accused of anything, that's why we have a judicial process. If we convicted everyone strictly on their arrest warrant or initial police report we wouldn't need judges or jury.
We tend to form opinions based on gossip and half truths that are heard around the water cooler. And hopefully you will never be in that situation, but if you ever are you will quickly find out who your real friends are.
Very few of us (especially special ops guys) have lived their whole lives without doing something that can land you in jail for a long time. Most just aren't caught. Take a good look inside yourself before pointing that holier than thou finger.
 
Re: full story on SABRE DEFENCE arrests

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Helidriver</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: J.J. McQuade</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Innocent until proven guilty.
Let's let them have their day in court before we convict them ourselves. </div></div>

Well said! </div></div>

here here!~!!
 
Re: full story on SABRE DEFENCE arrests

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ORD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Proving once again that being stupid (and greedy) really <span style="text-decoration: underline">HURTS</span> sometimes!!

FWIW, I have a complete copy of the indictment (which is 45pgs long incl. the criminal cover pages for each defendant) and its a doozy. If it is one thing about the feds you can usually bet on...you can bet that they have their ducks in a row and more than ample evidence (incl. photos, video, bank records, wire-taps, sworn staements, data from the raid last February, etc., etc.) by the time they move forward with an indictment like this. It doesn't look good for Guy et al. at this point based on what I see in the indictment, but as with every defendant in this country...they are INNOCENT until proven GUILTY! </div></div>

Screwed. ...but, then, maybe they should ahve thought about it.
 
Re: full story on SABRE DEFENCE arrests

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DP425</div><div class="ubbcode-body">LOL

-Didn't make it to the moon
-Elvis isn't dead
-Shooter in the grassy knoll
-The gov blew up the trade center towers
-And a cruise missile hit the pentagon


Yup, you do have the right to believe whatever ridiculous government conspiracy non-sense you want; and you have the right to voice that opinion. But we also have the right to say those holding such opinions are morons. Good Day</div></div>



Love this,..brilliant response!:)
 
Re: full story on SABRE DEFENCE arrests

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DP425</div><div class="ubbcode-body">LOL

-Didn't make it to the moon
-Elvis isn't dead
-Shooter in the grassy knoll
-The gov blew up the trade center towers
-And a cruise missile hit the pentagon


Yup, you do have the right to believe whatever ridiculous government conspiracy non-sense you want; and you have the right to voice that opinion. But we also have the right to say those holding such opinions are morons. Good Day </div></div>


You forgot:

Jim Morrison isn't dead
 
Re: full story on SABRE DEFENCE arrests

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: J.J. McQuade</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Innocent until proven guilty.
Let's let them have their day in court before we convict them ourselves. </div></div>


Agreed.

I was actually in a legal situation many years ago. Let's just say that I was arrested, next day Im in newspaper, and media has made me out to be this guilty individual with a write up with who knows where they got their info from, all the while, making the "other guy and his family" be this "innocent victim" in it.
Only to go before a grand jury couple months later, and to be no billed, AND the "innocent victim and his family" were then charged with a crime.


Now, I will say that when the Fed. Govt brings a charge against you, it IS different from your local police dept making an arrest. Difference being in my case, police make arrest with what they "gathered" that night my incident happened, and it was 4 people and what they say, against just me. So, based on that, they arrest me. Of course, when all teh evidence came out, and a probation officer that had witnessed the whole situation take place to back MY story, is why I was no billed.
Now, when Fed. Govtgets involved, it's a MONTH'S and some times YEARS long investigation, gathering facts and info, and THEN they bring a charge against you.

All of that being said, they ARE still innocent until proven guilty.
 
Re: full story on SABRE DEFENCE arrests

I have met some of the gentlemen from Sabre Defense. They were all good guys, willing to do anything to help a shooter out.

I wish them the best of luck. I do not know all the circumstance, I will NOT let the media convict them (in my eyes and mind).

The truth comes out in the wash, and they will have their day in court.

Best of luck gentlemen. Best of luck.
 
Re: full story on SABRE DEFENCE arrests

A cynical friend of mine once said, only stupid POOR criminals go to jail. If one in a million rich ones do its just to make the masses feel the Justice System is fair and balanced.

The system favors the defendant as long as the defendant has a good lawyer and some cash.
 
Re: SABRE DEFENCE, CEO arrested along with 5 employees

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ORD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Re25</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is no logical reason for a company that can produce <span style="font-style: italic">any</span> kind of weapon it desires in the US to "import" its evil components into the US. Unless it is an efficiency reason, maybe to meet an order deadline? or the need to use its manufactureing resources in the UK? My point is, after reading the post (again), it is still 95% about taxes that were skirted (for whatever reason) with 5% undefined fear. They know it all but choose to leave out the names of the undisclosed country that may or may not be an allied nation. This in my opinion was a very important point, the most important and would likly change my opinion if proved that the nation was hostile.

This accusation is boxed, packaged and pushed by the international community who think guns can be only used for evil and governments wanting their share. If innocent people were being killed by this companys actions the the authorities should be held accountable for letting it happen for the last 8 years.

I will still hold my opinion that they were stupid in their business practices. I sure you have a different opinion being from the UK, Savage is your evil guy anyway. </div></div>

If people are only going to read the @#$%^*& "media" accounts of what is going on with this situation, then naturally the facts and true issues at hand are going to be clouded (funny how the media does that to people). The media's job is to sell papers/subscriptions/increase ratings/etc. If they can report a story "factually" and yet still put a spin on it to get their "5% undefined fear" effect (your words...not mine), then they'll do it because IT SELLS. It is your job as the reader to read between the lines.

The indictment (all 45pgs of it) clearly sets out ALL of the issues truly at hand with Sabre, its ownership/management, and the allegations against the defendants of illegal conduct in violation of federal law.

There are zero, REPEAT ZERO, allegations/facts plead in the indictment relating to any sales or transactions by Sabre to any terrorist nation, "suspicious party", rogue third-world junta, etc. There are no facts whatsoever that Sabre was doing anything of the sort. Believe me when I tell you that if they had ANY sort of evidence suggesting that arms sales to the "baddies" was going on, they'd have charged them with it so fast their heads would have spun off because, like the media, USAs/AUSAs have agendas as well! If they have facts/evidence to support charges under the Patriot Act or other source of federal law to charge a US-based company, US citizens and a UK national of supporting/harboring terrorist acitivies, you can be your ass it would have been filed. That is just simply NOT the case here.

The "other" nation involved was FINLAND for heaven's sake and those issues dealt with Sabre's attempts to illegally IMPORT INTO THE US parts/materials for suppressor manufacturing that was to take place here in the US (for sale/use in US Govt contracts)!

What was being done, regardless of how people want to classify the action of Savage, et al., were a long, drawn-out series of stupid, greedy maneuvers designed intentionally to avoid compliance with US import/export laws that Savage deemed unfair/unjust/etc. in the name of making money, keeping US Gov't contracts, etc., etc. The indictment is full of direct quotes from communications both within and outside the company wherein Savage et al. were conspiring to fraudulently and illegally export firearms components from the US to the UK, and import components from Finland to the US, using various methods of "book-cooking", erroneously listing firearms components as other parts/etc. and with significantly reduced values on shipping manifests to avoid permitting/licensing requirements, and so on and so on.

As for the reputations of Savage et al., I don't know the man or his employees personally and am in no position to comment on their reputations other than what I have seen/read or heard from others, so I will hold judgment. HOWEVER, this isn't their first time of being in hot water for some highly questionable activities and this time...all evidence thus far points to them preparing for a royal ass ripping when the dust settles from their latest alleged criminal activities. </div></div>

I, for one, am hoping to see them beat all the charges.
 
Re: SABRE DEFENCE, CEO arrested along with 5 employees

Me too.

Suppressors from Finland. Sounds like they were going to get a leg up in the suppressor business. Honestly with Auto-Cad tools it just doesn't make sense on this that they have all of this machinery and money at their disposal and it would end for them on something like this. If nobody thinks that it doesn't smell then you probably forgot why we have the Bill of Rights, the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, and so many other laws protecting us from a tyrannical government.

Has anyone thought that maybe a disgruntled employee could have set them up and then called the feds?

Or is this the Middle Ages and the accused is the condemed before a word is uttered?
 
Re: SABRE DEFENCE, CEO arrested along with 5 employees

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Falar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I, for one, am hoping to see them beat all the charges. </div></div>


Why? I mean, say they ARE guilty for a minute...would you STILL want them to "beat the charges"? And your reason is because??????? You like criminals? You hate the Govt? Not understanding that comment at all...

Im not saying they are guilty, as I believe they are innocent until PROVEN guilty. That being said, I can't say that I HOPE they beat teh charges, just because. If they are guilty, then they need to be found so.

Your comment goes along the lines of... "I hope criminals walk free"
 
Re: full story on SABRE DEFENCE arrests

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: notquiteright</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A cynical friend of mine once said, only stupid POOR criminals go to jail. If one in a million rich ones do its just to make the masses feel the Justice System is fair and balanced.

The system favors the defendant as long as the defendant has a good lawyer and some cash. </div></div>


I see your point, and I DO believe that if you have money, you have better chances of beating the system. Funny how that works...

HOWEVER, all the money in the world didn't help out Micheal Vick or Plexico Burress or Mike Tyson...

Again, I KNOW that money helps in these situations, and for every Micheal Vick that there is a OJ Simpson or Ben Rothlesberger. Just saying that JUST becaue you have money, doesn't mean you are guaranteed a "not guilty', it only helps.
 
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