What do ya say... always counter offer? How much is too much to ask for over the initial offer? It seems I never have enough intel for these things.
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Re: salary negotiations
Depends on the job and how badly you need it. If you're really looking for work, then you may want to ask for a performance review after 6 months for a raise. If you're a hot commodity and have a lot of options, then you've got a lot more room to negotiate. It's all supply and demand.
Depends on the job and how badly you need it. If you're really looking for work, then you may want to ask for a performance review after 6 months for a raise. If you're a hot commodity and have a lot of options, then you've got a lot more room to negotiate. It's all supply and demand.
Re: salary negotiations
Depends how confident you are in yourself, the area, the job itself - and whether anyone else can do it cheaper.
I'm an IT guy, in Seattle I would ask $75-85k but where I live i can only get 60k
But at least I have a 6 minute commute, good bennies etc....
Depends how confident you are in yourself, the area, the job itself - and whether anyone else can do it cheaper.
I'm an IT guy, in Seattle I would ask $75-85k but where I live i can only get 60k
But at least I have a 6 minute commute, good bennies etc....
Re: salary negotiations
It's a marginal offer $ wise, but a huge step up the food chain for me. My estimate is its about 40k below market value for the position.
I'm in a stable employment situation as it is, so not really needing the work and in a pretty strong position to negotiate or flat turn it down.
I'm thinking the best strategy is to counter offer, just trying to decide how much. Asking for 150% of the offer seems excessive and I'd almost be embarrassed to ask, but that would put the position in the mid-salary range for what it is, and allow them the chance to counter-offer back again if they didn't like it.
This stuff f's with me... the HR people do it every day though so they're good at it I guess.
It's a marginal offer $ wise, but a huge step up the food chain for me. My estimate is its about 40k below market value for the position.
I'm in a stable employment situation as it is, so not really needing the work and in a pretty strong position to negotiate or flat turn it down.
I'm thinking the best strategy is to counter offer, just trying to decide how much. Asking for 150% of the offer seems excessive and I'd almost be embarrassed to ask, but that would put the position in the mid-salary range for what it is, and allow them the chance to counter-offer back again if they didn't like it.
This stuff f's with me... the HR people do it every day though so they're good at it I guess.
Re: salary negotiations
This is a great source of do's and don't's in interviewng and other career related job searches. There may be answers to your question there.
http://tinyurl.com/24fpv2j
Personally, I'd hate to make a recommendation that might cost you the position. I've been self employed for all but 5 of the last 26 years so I'm rusty in these matters!
But I bid work all the time and sometimes a little lateral thinking is ideal in getting the money you want for the job in question.
Good luck!
This is a great source of do's and don't's in interviewng and other career related job searches. There may be answers to your question there.
http://tinyurl.com/24fpv2j
Personally, I'd hate to make a recommendation that might cost you the position. I've been self employed for all but 5 of the last 26 years so I'm rusty in these matters!
But I bid work all the time and sometimes a little lateral thinking is ideal in getting the money you want for the job in question.
Good luck!
Re: salary negotiations
Thanks for all the input... I don't think I could for it with the offer on the table, so I'll counter and see what happens.
Thanks for all the input... I don't think I could for it with the offer on the table, so I'll counter and see what happens.
Re: salary negotiations
Research the average salary of the area. Then look hard at your experience and worth(you are noth worth what you think in LA when you are in Nashville). MAke a solid judgement, then look at your numbers once more. State the highest salary you need in the area for no benefits(pay your own bennies) and negotiate on the bennies dropping salary when a cash equal benefit is given.
Example:
I want 55k a year because that is what it would take to pay my own full medical, dental, eye glasses, and Rx, housing, and food or living costs and retirement each year. That number is negotiable down to 47k if all benefits are matched to the best point.
A realistic look and value of benefits given will help to negotiate salary in each area, but as I said, LA makes more than Nashville so act accordingly
Research the average salary of the area. Then look hard at your experience and worth(you are noth worth what you think in LA when you are in Nashville). MAke a solid judgement, then look at your numbers once more. State the highest salary you need in the area for no benefits(pay your own bennies) and negotiate on the bennies dropping salary when a cash equal benefit is given.
Example:
I want 55k a year because that is what it would take to pay my own full medical, dental, eye glasses, and Rx, housing, and food or living costs and retirement each year. That number is negotiable down to 47k if all benefits are matched to the best point.
A realistic look and value of benefits given will help to negotiate salary in each area, but as I said, LA makes more than Nashville so act accordingly
Re: salary negotiations
$40k below average is too far below IMHO. I'd counter offer with something closer to the current market value and if they decline, I'd look elsewhere provided they don't offer you any other way to make up the difference. A step up the food chain means more responsibility and responsibility usually means more hours, or managing more people, etc, etc. You don't ever want to sell yourself too short on the salary. However, don't just look at the salary....what else are they offering?? Salary is just one dimension of the whole package. Are there any opportunities for bonuses or other incentives to make up the difference? Employers these days seem to want everything from you and pay peanuts in return then expect total loyalty from you. Fortunately, I got with a company that treats me well now. Good employers are out there but they are just harder to find nowadays. It took me 18 months to get my current position and I've been with them since 2008!! Good luck with your decision.
Chad
$40k below average is too far below IMHO. I'd counter offer with something closer to the current market value and if they decline, I'd look elsewhere provided they don't offer you any other way to make up the difference. A step up the food chain means more responsibility and responsibility usually means more hours, or managing more people, etc, etc. You don't ever want to sell yourself too short on the salary. However, don't just look at the salary....what else are they offering?? Salary is just one dimension of the whole package. Are there any opportunities for bonuses or other incentives to make up the difference? Employers these days seem to want everything from you and pay peanuts in return then expect total loyalty from you. Fortunately, I got with a company that treats me well now. Good employers are out there but they are just harder to find nowadays. It took me 18 months to get my current position and I've been with them since 2008!! Good luck with your decision.
Chad
Re: salary negotiations
Thanks for the input!
I countered their offer this morning at 150% of the original offer plus some perks and a mod to one of the non-compete clauses I found especially atrocious. We'll see what happens.
Thanks for the input!
I countered their offer this morning at 150% of the original offer plus some perks and a mod to one of the non-compete clauses I found especially atrocious. We'll see what happens.
Re: salary negotiations
40k below average is a low-ball offer. They know it too. Will they respect you in the morning? Do you actually WANT to work for someone who would low-ball you, or is too out of touch with the industry to know the going rate?
Being nice about it suggest that this rate is actually less than you are making now, (even if it isn't) and below the going rate for your combo of experience, acumen, and the skill set required.
Once you get them to the acceptable range, then you can start negotiating. If a job is NOT at least 15% higher (pay and benes) it isn't worth changing over. Basic rule of job hunting.
Finally, if they realize you want the job only as a stepping stone to higher advancement (other jobs) they will wonder if you are just going to jump to a higher point again, and drop them before your chair gets warm. That costs an employer money, and they might just pass you over for that.
Good luck.
40k below average is a low-ball offer. They know it too. Will they respect you in the morning? Do you actually WANT to work for someone who would low-ball you, or is too out of touch with the industry to know the going rate?
Being nice about it suggest that this rate is actually less than you are making now, (even if it isn't) and below the going rate for your combo of experience, acumen, and the skill set required.
Once you get them to the acceptable range, then you can start negotiating. If a job is NOT at least 15% higher (pay and benes) it isn't worth changing over. Basic rule of job hunting.
Finally, if they realize you want the job only as a stepping stone to higher advancement (other jobs) they will wonder if you are just going to jump to a higher point again, and drop them before your chair gets warm. That costs an employer money, and they might just pass you over for that.
Good luck.
Re: salary negotiations
Good points, very valid. Although I don't fault the company for doing good business by trying to get the best deal. I would do the same thing. The offer is probably in the 10th percentile of salary range for the job, which considering the position, my experience, bonus structure and benefits I don't think the original offer was insulting, but its not worth moving for at that point except maybe for the experience.
Honestly if I did move just to get the experience I would probably not stick around, as the going rate is significantly higher and it would make sense to move after a couple years. But if I can get a reasonable (40-60th percentile) wage then I'd be inclined to stick around for the long haul.
Good points, very valid. Although I don't fault the company for doing good business by trying to get the best deal. I would do the same thing. The offer is probably in the 10th percentile of salary range for the job, which considering the position, my experience, bonus structure and benefits I don't think the original offer was insulting, but its not worth moving for at that point except maybe for the experience.
Honestly if I did move just to get the experience I would probably not stick around, as the going rate is significantly higher and it would make sense to move after a couple years. But if I can get a reasonable (40-60th percentile) wage then I'd be inclined to stick around for the long haul.
Re: salary negotiations
I noticed your profile says you are an automation engineer. My little brother is a mechanical engineer and is only 2 years out of college with a masters degree. Before graduating, he had offers from every company he interviewed with and some even offered a "signing bonus" to go along with a very good salary for someone with no experience. Now, 2 years later the company he works for is doing away with his whole division and will be letting everyone go in that division some time in September. They offered him a job transferring to another department, but he decided to pass since it's not the type of work he wants to do. So now he's looking for another engineering job and in the 2 years since he last looked the market has really changed in that field. He wants to get into design and work towards getting his PE and away from the project management side. Where he was getting offers for $70-80k/year plus bonus and bennies 2 years ago, now he's getting offers for $50-55k. One interview, the guy told him he's hiring engineers at wholesale prices right now, and he's right. I keep telling him to go into technical sales, with commission he can write his own paycheck. I'd assume that most fields are experiencing the same trend as mechanical engineering, the guys making the higher salaries are the ones who were with the company prior to the start of the falling economy. The market is saturated with talented and experienced people who 2 years ago would not have given some of these offers a second thought, but now these offers are the new standard. If you're looking to trade some money for some experience it may end up being a good move if it nets you something in the long run, but you may want to find out what the up side is to the salary.....like how, when and how much you will receive in pay increases.
I noticed your profile says you are an automation engineer. My little brother is a mechanical engineer and is only 2 years out of college with a masters degree. Before graduating, he had offers from every company he interviewed with and some even offered a "signing bonus" to go along with a very good salary for someone with no experience. Now, 2 years later the company he works for is doing away with his whole division and will be letting everyone go in that division some time in September. They offered him a job transferring to another department, but he decided to pass since it's not the type of work he wants to do. So now he's looking for another engineering job and in the 2 years since he last looked the market has really changed in that field. He wants to get into design and work towards getting his PE and away from the project management side. Where he was getting offers for $70-80k/year plus bonus and bennies 2 years ago, now he's getting offers for $50-55k. One interview, the guy told him he's hiring engineers at wholesale prices right now, and he's right. I keep telling him to go into technical sales, with commission he can write his own paycheck. I'd assume that most fields are experiencing the same trend as mechanical engineering, the guys making the higher salaries are the ones who were with the company prior to the start of the falling economy. The market is saturated with talented and experienced people who 2 years ago would not have given some of these offers a second thought, but now these offers are the new standard. If you're looking to trade some money for some experience it may end up being a good move if it nets you something in the long run, but you may want to find out what the up side is to the salary.....like how, when and how much you will receive in pay increases.
Re: salary negotiations
Nice analysis and thanks for sharing your brother's experiences, I'll post back when negotiations are done and the yay or nay is decided.
Nice analysis and thanks for sharing your brother's experiences, I'll post back when negotiations are done and the yay or nay is decided.
Re: salary negotiations
Well the resolution of this is that I played hard ball, they dropped the offer for the job in consideration and switched it to a different one, and came up on the salary.
So I guess I'll be adjusting to life in Michigan in the very near future, Grand Rapids area if anybody is out there.
And... just when I had found a reasonably close place to shoot 2k+ yards too. So is life.
Well the resolution of this is that I played hard ball, they dropped the offer for the job in consideration and switched it to a different one, and came up on the salary.
So I guess I'll be adjusting to life in Michigan in the very near future, Grand Rapids area if anybody is out there.
And... just when I had found a reasonably close place to shoot 2k+ yards too. So is life.
Re: salary negotiations
Adam B is near there....heck of a good guy.
Adam B is near there....heck of a good guy.
Re: salary negotiations
pm sent
pm sent
Re: salary negotiations
I guess it all comes down to your attitude. I know that whenever I went for interviews I was more concerned about whether I wanted to work for them. So I always stated my terms at the interview. I always showed up prepared with more questions than they had for me.
Employers respect confidence. If you are going to work for a person who does not respect confidence then I do not want to work for them. Regardless of how good the job is.
A smart person told me once that a good boss surrounds himself with good people. An insecure boss surrounds himself with people he can control. And how often are controllable people the best?? Not very often. Tom.
I guess it all comes down to your attitude. I know that whenever I went for interviews I was more concerned about whether I wanted to work for them. So I always stated my terms at the interview. I always showed up prepared with more questions than they had for me.
Employers respect confidence. If you are going to work for a person who does not respect confidence then I do not want to work for them. Regardless of how good the job is.
A smart person told me once that a good boss surrounds himself with good people. An insecure boss surrounds himself with people he can control. And how often are controllable people the best?? Not very often. Tom.
Re: salary negotiations
Well I had a job interview and this was brought up - The interview was at my current desk too LOL.
I told them what i make and that I don't want to go down below it, although there maybe "Wiggle room" - my resume speaks for itself. So having said that I'm waiting to hear what happens.
Last I heard it was between a current employee of that company with vast years LESS experience and myself.
But my salary here put me #1 on the layoff list -
Of course the useless software is not useless anymore and production of documents has been ongoing since I brought the system operational but they forget these things...
So get what you can, don't undersell yourself or you will never get back where you want to be....
Well I had a job interview and this was brought up - The interview was at my current desk too LOL.
I told them what i make and that I don't want to go down below it, although there maybe "Wiggle room" - my resume speaks for itself. So having said that I'm waiting to hear what happens.
Last I heard it was between a current employee of that company with vast years LESS experience and myself.
But my salary here put me #1 on the layoff list -
Of course the useless software is not useless anymore and production of documents has been ongoing since I brought the system operational but they forget these things...
So get what you can, don't undersell yourself or you will never get back where you want to be....
Re: salary negotiations
Artic,
Don't software/IT guys always program a backdoor/bonus line of security, er....cash, errr... code into anything they develop? I've got a small program written by an EX employee that I still can't alter because of that very issue. HA!
JH
Artic,
Don't software/IT guys always program a backdoor/bonus line of security, er....cash, errr... code into anything they develop? I've got a small program written by an EX employee that I still can't alter because of that very issue. HA!
JH
Re: salary negotiations
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Acehigh</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Artic,
Don't software/IT guys always program a backdoor/bonus line of security, er....cash, errr... code into anything they develop? I've got a small program written by an EX employee that I still can't alter because of that very issue. HA!
JH </div></div>
Not if they want to stay out of jail.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Acehigh</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Artic,
Don't software/IT guys always program a backdoor/bonus line of security, er....cash, errr... code into anything they develop? I've got a small program written by an EX employee that I still can't alter because of that very issue. HA!
JH </div></div>
Not if they want to stay out of jail.
Re: salary negotiations
Really depends on company, some dev. firms have knowledge and systems to keep and build organizational knowledge and demand all dev work in pairs, docs to be made and stuff written. Some (mostly those who pay peanuts and expect wonders and loyalty above and beyond) just care about results and how expensive can they sell and how to pay devs less... The latter ones go under very fast or atleast as fast as people (mostly from Unis. or regular geeks) come to realize they are being exploited...and most of us do...for some it takes several years for some few weeks
.
As for sys admins (myself for example) its much like companys lawyers, accountants etc... Management tends to be smart and deal with you in gloves as we usually know stuff which is better if its kept inside...Only idiots would go and f... with people who can effectively f... them back...
Really depends on company, some dev. firms have knowledge and systems to keep and build organizational knowledge and demand all dev work in pairs, docs to be made and stuff written. Some (mostly those who pay peanuts and expect wonders and loyalty above and beyond) just care about results and how expensive can they sell and how to pay devs less... The latter ones go under very fast or atleast as fast as people (mostly from Unis. or regular geeks) come to realize they are being exploited...and most of us do...for some it takes several years for some few weeks
As for sys admins (myself for example) its much like companys lawyers, accountants etc... Management tends to be smart and deal with you in gloves as we usually know stuff which is better if its kept inside...Only idiots would go and f... with people who can effectively f... them back...
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