Suppressors SBR clarification

[fireguyty]

Ok, so I know that this is the suppressor section, but I figure that this is the best place to get an answer.

I had heard that when you do paper work for an SBR (AR15 lower in this case) you put what ever you want down for length, and caliber. In my case, I put down 11.5" 5.56. Then, you can swap out any upper of any caliber or length of barrel because it is only a temporary change of configuration.

Then the other day, a friend of mine told me that you can only swap to an upper that is the same length or longer. He said if you go shorter than the length on your paperwork you are breaking the law.

If anyone would care to help keep me out of jail I would appreciate it.

Ty

 

[jwsnydes]

Re: SBR clarification

I'd be interest too. If you couldn't just put multi for length and caliber?

 

[1911GunNut]

Re: SBR clarification

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fireguyty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Then the other day, a friend of mine told me that you can only swap to an upper that is the same length or longer. He said if you go shorter than the length on your paperwork you are breaking the law.</div></div>

I recall being told something similar when I bought my SBR, I went with 10.5", so didn't really pay much attention to it since I figured I'd never go any shorter than that.

I'd be interested in what the ATF has to say.

 

[hondo1312]

Re: SBR clarification

I'm not with the ATF, nor am I a lawyer, so take this for what it's worth.

When I sent my Form 1 in, it listed the barrel length (9") and overall length (can't remember the dimension). My dealer told me as long as I didn't go SHORTER than either of those dimensions, I would be fine.

 

[aziator]

Re: SBR clarification

I think what hondo is saying is about what I would go with. I always list alternate calibers/barrel lengths in the additional description section but that is more technique.

What I always heard was that bottom line, you are registering the rifle as a Short Barreled Rifle and as long as you have the ability to have it in the configuration it was registered in that you are fine.

Remember, when all the rules were written people weren't doing ARs or other "quickly adaptable" rifles. They were cutting down barrels on rifles that wouldn't be considered modular by any sense of the word.

 

[CoryT]

Re: SBR clarification

There is nothing in the law that would prohibit you from using any barrel lenght you like once it's registered. It's an SBR, not an XX" barreled rifle. The measurements are on the form for identification purposes. When doing a subsequent transfer, the dimensions listed on the transfer from will need to match the registry. If you make a permanent change, you should write a letter the NFA Branch detailing the change and ask them to update the registry. If it's temporary, like swapping uppers, do nothing.

You can also return the gun to non-NFA status by installing a 16" or longer barrel and sending as letter to NFA Branch to tell them about the change and ask that it be removed from the registry. Once the letter is processed, you can sell the gun normally without the need for transfer paperwork. No, you don't get the $200 back.

 

[cms81586]

Re: SBR clarification

For an AR where you can swap uppers it's a non-issue as it's not a permenant change. If you're SBR'ing an AK which is pretty much permenant, and then change the barrel length, you're "supposed" to notify the ATF so they can take note of the change...but ultimately an SBR (or SBS) is an SBR and once it's in the registry you're good to go.

 

[fireguyty]

Re: SBR clarification

Awesome, no gray bar hotel for me then.

Thanks,
Ty

 

[Jackalope33B]

Re: SBR clarification

Yeppers, thats what my SOT told me..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hondo1312</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm not with the ATF, nor am I a lawyer, so take this for what it's worth.

When I sent my Form 1 in, it listed the barrel length (9") and overall length (can't remember the dimension). My dealer told me as long as I didn't go SHORTER than either of those dimensions, I would be fine. </div></div>

 

[rbdub474]

Re: SBR clarification

I am an 07FFL/02SOT for what it's worth. You can use any barrel length in any caliber that will work on your rifle. You can switch them around as much as you like. The only thing that ATF ASKS you to do is to send them a letter with any permanent changes to the configuration of the rifle. That would be if you sold the upper so that you could no longer return it to the configuration listed on the form. There is no law requiring you to do so, but ATF asks for the letter because they are required by congress to keep the NFA database as accurate as possible.

Also for listing Multi or several lengths or calibers, ATF is no longer approving forms marked with such. They want one caliber and length that will be the original configuration.

 

[BravoSector1]

Re: SBR clarification

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rbdub474</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am an 07FFL/02SOT for what it's worth. You can use any barrel length in any caliber that will work on your rifle. You can switch them around as much as you like. The only thing that ATF ASKS you to do is to send them a letter with any permanent changes to the configuration of the rifle. That would be if you sold the upper so that you could no longer return it to the configuration listed on the form. There is no law requiring you to do so, but ATF asks for the letter because they are required by congress to keep the NFA database as accurate as possible.

Also for listing Multi or several lengths or calibers, ATF is no longer approving forms marked with such. They want one caliber and length that will be the original configuration.
</div></div>

rb is coorect. Start with your 11.5...make a "inexpensive build" if it isn't the go to caliber you think you'll use for the SBR lower. Hang onto this upper. Purchase away with different uppers/calibers. Have fun, be safe.

My forms were returned to specify caliber intended...multi didn't fly (early 2011). Forms resubmitted and received cleared 10 days later.

 

[hondo1312]

Re: SBR clarification

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BravoSector1</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rbdub474</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am an 07FFL/02SOT for what it's worth. You can use any barrel length in any caliber that will work on your rifle. You can switch them around as much as you like. The only thing that ATF ASKS you to do is to send them a letter with any permanent changes to the configuration of the rifle. That would be if you sold the upper so that you could no longer return it to the configuration listed on the form. There is no law requiring you to do so, but ATF asks for the letter because they are required by congress to keep the NFA database as accurate as possible.

Also for listing Multi or several lengths or calibers, ATF is no longer approving forms marked with such. They want one caliber and length that will be the original configuration.
</div></div>

rb is coorect. Start with your 11.5...make a "inexpensive build" if it isn't the go to caliber you think you'll use for the SBR lower. Hang onto this upper. Purchase away with different uppers/calibers. Have fun, be safe.

My forms were returned to specify caliber intended...multi didn't fly (early 2011). Forms resubmitted and received cleared 10 days later. </div></div>

Just so I'm clear; I can put ANY upper on an SBR'd lower AS LONG AS I have the upper that was identified on the Form 1?

 

[CoryT]

Re: SBR clarification

You don't even need the original upper. If you 'permanently' change the configuration, for example sell the original upper, you should submit a change letter to ATF so they change their records to match the new 'permanent' configuration. That's so a transfer won't get kicked back because the current description no longer matches their records.

On an AR, 'permanent' is not so much, an AK would be a real effort to change. It's a registered SBR, what particular barrel is in it does not matter.

 

[Hayli277]

Re: SBR clarification

Anyone can purchase a SBR upper w/o a tax stamp - to mount it to a lower, the lower requires a SBR "class 3" tax stamp registering it as an SBR. Once the lower is registered as an SBR you can mount the upper to it. I really dont see anyone having an issue if you were to switch out the upper to a 16"+ upper... the question are raised when you show up to the range with an SBR.

 

[bengineer]

Re: SBR clarification

...some of the above is yes, some not so much.

Ask the NFA branch in writing and wait for their response. Or read the law and their "rulings."

Until then, and I'm not an attorney and this is the 'net: you can use whatever upper on your SBR AR. Your limitation is that if it is a registered SBR and you don't have a short barrel on hand, it isn't an SBR anymore and must be re-registered if you want to use a short bbl again.
Do send a letter if permanent mods are made, or if you move. If and when another form is filed on that item, that new form needs to match whatever the NFA branch has on file for that serial number.
You can remove an SBR from the registry without destroying the receiver, unlike a machine gun or suppressor.
Read the law and "rulings."
And, read the law and "rulings." Search NFA of 1934 and read it.

 

[bengineer]

Re: SBR clarification

Don't forget about "constructive intent" when you go to buy that shortie AR upper. If you have a pistol AR lower, then you can have as many short (<16" uppers) as you want. But without that pistol lower, possession of a short upper can be called constructive intent and get you a trip to the butt hut. Ditto on units like the TC Contender, etc. Have the pistol or the approved form 1 or 4 BEFORE you get trigger happy and get the upper, so you don't end up without all of it.

 

[Boomholzer]

Re: SBR clarification

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ben in WY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...some of the above is yes, some not so much.

Ask the NFA branch in writing and wait for their response. Or read the law and their "rulings."

Until then, and I'm not an attorney and this is the 'net: you can use whatever upper on your SBR AR. <span style="font-weight: bold">Your limitation is that if it is a registered SBR and you don't have a short barrel on hand, it isn't an SBR anymore and must be re-registered if you want to use a short bbl again. </span>Do send a letter if permanent mods are made, or if you move. If and when another form is filed on that item, that new form needs to match whatever the NFA branch has on file for that serial number.
You can remove an SBR from the registry without destroying the receiver, unlike a machine gun or suppressor.
Read the law and "rulings."
And, read the law and "rulings." Search NFA of 1934 and read it. </div></div>

The application in either a form-1 or form-4 specifies intent with a receiver or the serial numbered aspect considered the firearm or "NFA" item. Entry into the barrel length column for SBR is traditionally versatile as with legal intent (folks entering multiple lenghts or <16"). There are no identification properties to original barrel in serial or stampings.
A MG receiver can be held without a barrel, a DIAS, LL without Rcvr, a suppressor without a mated firearm. Likewise, a SBR is "registered" as the receiver and legal intent.

Intent is to assemble a SBR. The chicken receiver needs to be legal before the egg barrel or any application of cutting device or property of short barrel in intent. What you state creates a paradox unless a SBR is purchased as an assembled rifle on Form 4 (and there agreed on with multiple short barreled assemblies). Both applications are different means to the same end.

I'm not saying right or wrong or arguing. If you have letterhead or direct reference to the contrary, please share.

 

[rbdub474]

Re: SBR clarification

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ben in WY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Don't forget about "constructive intent" when you go to buy that shortie AR upper. If you have a pistol AR lower, then you can have as many short (<16" uppers) as you want. But without that pistol lower, possession of a short upper can be called constructive intent and get you a trip to the butt hut. Ditto on units like the TC Contender, etc. Have the pistol or the approved form 1 or 4 BEFORE you get trigger happy and get the upper, so you don't end up without all of it. </div></div>

The legal term you are looking for is "Constructive Possession", not "Constructive Intent". Just a FYI.