Whats the Pros & Cons of a AR type SBR in .223, say in the 10" range? Would you rather go with a Piston driven rifle or the orginal gas type? Why? Any issues with the bolt cycling on a SBR? Gases getting blown in your face?
- Thread starter Jackalope33B
- Start date
Re: SBR Rifles
AR I assume... what caliber and specific use matters a lot
AR I assume... what caliber and specific use matters a lot
Re: SBR Rifles
Just edited with more info..
Thanks!
Just edited with more info..
Thanks!
Re: SBR Rifles
I personally have no issue w/ DI guns, but pistons do run cleaner SBR or not. as for a SBR 223, I don't personally like them, the 223/556 relies on velocity, short barrels rob that.
223/556 is designed as a rifle/carbine round, it has a LOT of muzzle blast from a SBR.
IMHO 300blk is a much better SBR choice, YMMV, but even a 9mm, 40 S&W, etc, etc are my picks for an SBR
I personally have no issue w/ DI guns, but pistons do run cleaner SBR or not. as for a SBR 223, I don't personally like them, the 223/556 relies on velocity, short barrels rob that.
223/556 is designed as a rifle/carbine round, it has a LOT of muzzle blast from a SBR.
IMHO 300blk is a much better SBR choice, YMMV, but even a 9mm, 40 S&W, etc, etc are my picks for an SBR
Re: SBR Rifles
My MAX range to engage something will be under 200 yards. 99% of the time, my engagement will be about 50 yards, IF that..<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I personally have no issue w/ DI guns, but pistons do run cleaner SBR or not. as for a SBR 223, I don't personally like them, the 223/556 relies on velocity, short barrels rob that.
223/556 is designed as a rifle/carbine round, it has a LOT of muzzle blast from a SBR.
IMHO 300blk is a much better SBR choice, YMMV, but even a 9mm, 40 S&W, etc, etc are my picks for an SBR </div></div>
My MAX range to engage something will be under 200 yards. 99% of the time, my engagement will be about 50 yards, IF that..<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I personally have no issue w/ DI guns, but pistons do run cleaner SBR or not. as for a SBR 223, I don't personally like them, the 223/556 relies on velocity, short barrels rob that.
223/556 is designed as a rifle/carbine round, it has a LOT of muzzle blast from a SBR.
IMHO 300blk is a much better SBR choice, YMMV, but even a 9mm, 40 S&W, etc, etc are my picks for an SBR </div></div>
Re: SBR Rifles
300blk
300blk
Re: SBR Rifles
300blk? Im not familiar..
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">300blk </div></div>
300blk? Im not familiar..
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">300blk </div></div>
Re: SBR Rifles
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jackalope33B</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Whats the Pros & Cons of a AR type SBR in .223, say in the 10" range? Would you rather go with a Piston driven rifle or the orginal gas type? Why? Any issues with the bolt cycling on a SBR? Gases getting blown in your face?
</div></div>
Pros:
Shorter, profile / OAL easier to deploy indoors and in close quarters. Ease of movement though doorways, up stairs, halls, etc.
Cons:
Much more flash and blast. Unsuppressed, you will suffer hearing damage with just one shot. 5.56mm is a very inefficient cartridge so you will have a large flame, heat and concussion, which would be much worse indoors.
Hard to suppress. 10.5" is not enough barrel to completely burn most popular 5.56 powders. You will still have flame and blast even suppressed.
blast baffle on suppressor may last a shorter time. Who really cares, though, when you compare the godawful gutpunch you get when shooting a 10.5 unsuppressed?
Loss of velocity. Some bullets might not function at the reduced velocities of the 10.5 5.56mm.
MORAL of the story? If you really really need a SBR, and might shoot it indoors, get a .300 BLK or 6.8 SPC.
Only the 6.8 SPC can burn 90% of its powder in 8" of barrel, but .300 BLK uses only 35,000 PSI versus 55,000 for 6.8.
So, both 6.8 and .300 BLK are better than 5.56 in this use. If you are that close, then even subsonic 220 SMK's out of the 10.5 can work with very little blast or flash. The 6.8 OTOH, can still reach 2800 FPS with 85 TSX's or Barnes frangibles in these very short lengths.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jackalope33B</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Whats the Pros & Cons of a AR type SBR in .223, say in the 10" range? Would you rather go with a Piston driven rifle or the orginal gas type? Why? Any issues with the bolt cycling on a SBR? Gases getting blown in your face?
</div></div>
Pros:
Shorter, profile / OAL easier to deploy indoors and in close quarters. Ease of movement though doorways, up stairs, halls, etc.
Cons:
Much more flash and blast. Unsuppressed, you will suffer hearing damage with just one shot. 5.56mm is a very inefficient cartridge so you will have a large flame, heat and concussion, which would be much worse indoors.
Hard to suppress. 10.5" is not enough barrel to completely burn most popular 5.56 powders. You will still have flame and blast even suppressed.
blast baffle on suppressor may last a shorter time. Who really cares, though, when you compare the godawful gutpunch you get when shooting a 10.5 unsuppressed?
Loss of velocity. Some bullets might not function at the reduced velocities of the 10.5 5.56mm.
MORAL of the story? If you really really need a SBR, and might shoot it indoors, get a .300 BLK or 6.8 SPC.
Only the 6.8 SPC can burn 90% of its powder in 8" of barrel, but .300 BLK uses only 35,000 PSI versus 55,000 for 6.8.
So, both 6.8 and .300 BLK are better than 5.56 in this use. If you are that close, then even subsonic 220 SMK's out of the 10.5 can work with very little blast or flash. The 6.8 OTOH, can still reach 2800 FPS with 85 TSX's or Barnes frangibles in these very short lengths.
Re: SBR Rifles
300 AAC Blackout... 221 fireball/223 case modified and loaded w/ a .30 cal bullet... out of an 8-9" barrel it has roughly the same ballisyics as a 16" 7.62x39 w/ 125gr supersonic ammo, w/ 220gr subsonivs it's similar to a 45acp or 357 mag w/ a ball ammo.
only different between it and a 223/556 in an AR is the barrel...same bolt, mags, etc
300 AAC Blackout... 221 fireball/223 case modified and loaded w/ a .30 cal bullet... out of an 8-9" barrel it has roughly the same ballisyics as a 16" 7.62x39 w/ 125gr supersonic ammo, w/ 220gr subsonivs it's similar to a 45acp or 357 mag w/ a ball ammo.
only different between it and a 223/556 in an AR is the barrel...same bolt, mags, etc
Re: SBR Rifles
Im limited to a .223 round in an AR type rifle. The other rounds you guys are talking about will be a no-go.. Any flash hiders you guys recomend? I was eyeballing that Noveske "Pig", but Im not sure..
Im limited to a .223 round in an AR type rifle. The other rounds you guys are talking about will be a no-go.. Any flash hiders you guys recomend? I was eyeballing that Noveske "Pig", but Im not sure..
Re: SBR Rifles
why are you limited?
why are you limited?
Re: SBR Rifles
its what certain agencys want.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">why are you limited? </div></div>
its what certain agencys want.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">why are you limited? </div></div>
Re: SBR Rifles
I have an LMT MRP CQB with a 10.5" barrel and also a Noveske 12.5" Crusader upper. I run both suppressed and unsuppressed w/o issues. I've fired thousands of rounds of brands of ammo many would balk at using (mostly unsuppressed but there are the odd 100+ shot strings in a carbine match suppressed).
The Noveske has a switchblock so I set that to 'S' when the can is on. Either way, with either upper I don't really notice any gas in my face. I have an AAC brakeout on the 10.5" (really fscking loud and concussive) and a blackout on the 12.5" ( it would be wearing a brakeout but I can't seem to break the blackout loose =).
I have no problem with either upper functioning 100% correctly to include bolt lock, etc. I also happen to have another MRP CQB with a 12" piston setup in it. I've fired both MRP's side by side and really can't tell that much of a difference between them.
I have an LMT MRP CQB with a 10.5" barrel and also a Noveske 12.5" Crusader upper. I run both suppressed and unsuppressed w/o issues. I've fired thousands of rounds of brands of ammo many would balk at using (mostly unsuppressed but there are the odd 100+ shot strings in a carbine match suppressed).
The Noveske has a switchblock so I set that to 'S' when the can is on. Either way, with either upper I don't really notice any gas in my face. I have an AAC brakeout on the 10.5" (really fscking loud and concussive) and a blackout on the 12.5" ( it would be wearing a brakeout but I can't seem to break the blackout loose =).
I have no problem with either upper functioning 100% correctly to include bolt lock, etc. I also happen to have another MRP CQB with a 12" piston setup in it. I've fired both MRP's side by side and really can't tell that much of a difference between them.
Re: SBR Rifles
If you are LE then I would say go for it. I have been using a 10" Rock River with a standard gas system for patrol and I love it. Easier to get out of the car and easier to clear rooms and tight spaces. I have fired thousands of rounds through it with no problems. I don't have much experience with the gas piston systems, but they are cleaner running.
The loss of velocity shouldn't be much of an issue in LE situations considering the relatively short distances that would likely be encountered. Shot placement will be more crucial than a loss of 200 feet per second.
The one down side is the excessive muzzle blast. I put a Levang compensator on my rifle, which directs the blast forward. It definitely helps. I have run it suppressed and suppressors takes care of a majority of the bast. With the short barrel suppressed, I noticed excessive gassing. A gas buster charging handle fixed that,but my agency won't allow the suppressor for duty. Unsuppressed I have never had any over gassing issues.
Hope this helped.
If you are LE then I would say go for it. I have been using a 10" Rock River with a standard gas system for patrol and I love it. Easier to get out of the car and easier to clear rooms and tight spaces. I have fired thousands of rounds through it with no problems. I don't have much experience with the gas piston systems, but they are cleaner running.
The loss of velocity shouldn't be much of an issue in LE situations considering the relatively short distances that would likely be encountered. Shot placement will be more crucial than a loss of 200 feet per second.
The one down side is the excessive muzzle blast. I put a Levang compensator on my rifle, which directs the blast forward. It definitely helps. I have run it suppressed and suppressors takes care of a majority of the bast. With the short barrel suppressed, I noticed excessive gassing. A gas buster charging handle fixed that,but my agency won't allow the suppressor for duty. Unsuppressed I have never had any over gassing issues.
Hope this helped.
Re: SBR Rifles
I just set out to get an entry weapon for the team and ended up with the PWS Diablo MK107 in 5.56. I have a Colt SBR suppressed also, so here's my experience for what it's worth; On the entry, I was really wanting to go as short as possible for room clearing and EP/vehicle born details, I have a MK114 for patrol/perimeter use so a secondary weapon is what I'm after.
First the DI vs Piston for me, I shoot that Colt SBR suppressed and since I'm left handed I get burning powder on my face. (insert sand in my panties comment here). Obviously not a problem with gear on, but gets old when training. With the piston I don't experience that as much, and then there is the cleaning, unbelievable.
Then for the caliber, I seriously wanted the 7.62 x 39 MK107 because the ammo is close in price to the 5.56, and the 300 is way too much for my little budget. But the Captain said 5.56 or 9mm so if I run dry I can get more ammo from other team members. And, for my vest I streamline my mag pouches to just pistol and rifle.
Don't know if that helps, but that was directed my purchase decision FWIW.
Stay Safe-OS3
I just set out to get an entry weapon for the team and ended up with the PWS Diablo MK107 in 5.56. I have a Colt SBR suppressed also, so here's my experience for what it's worth; On the entry, I was really wanting to go as short as possible for room clearing and EP/vehicle born details, I have a MK114 for patrol/perimeter use so a secondary weapon is what I'm after.
First the DI vs Piston for me, I shoot that Colt SBR suppressed and since I'm left handed I get burning powder on my face. (insert sand in my panties comment here). Obviously not a problem with gear on, but gets old when training. With the piston I don't experience that as much, and then there is the cleaning, unbelievable.
Then for the caliber, I seriously wanted the 7.62 x 39 MK107 because the ammo is close in price to the 5.56, and the 300 is way too much for my little budget. But the Captain said 5.56 or 9mm so if I run dry I can get more ammo from other team members. And, for my vest I streamline my mag pouches to just pistol and rifle.
Don't know if that helps, but that was directed my purchase decision FWIW.
Stay Safe-OS3
Re: SBR Rifles
This weapon is mission specific, CQB, VBSS.
As mentioned earlier
Cons:
"5.56mm is a very inefficient cartridge" This is a completely false statement having seen what the 5.56 will do at short range.
"Hard to suppress." Not at all if set up correctly. Our cans were AAC (not plugging them) and we had no problems.
"Loss of velocity." This isn't a issue at short distances. Kinda like the 9mm debate however when I put 3 to your chest and a few to your head I don't think your worried about if it was a 9 or 45. Same with 5.56.
MORAL of the story? If you really really need a SBR, get a
5.56, have it set up correctly and train with it knowing it has limitations like any other tool.
This weapon is mission specific, CQB, VBSS.
As mentioned earlier
Cons:
"5.56mm is a very inefficient cartridge" This is a completely false statement having seen what the 5.56 will do at short range.
"Hard to suppress." Not at all if set up correctly. Our cans were AAC (not plugging them) and we had no problems.
"Loss of velocity." This isn't a issue at short distances. Kinda like the 9mm debate however when I put 3 to your chest and a few to your head I don't think your worried about if it was a 9 or 45. Same with 5.56.
MORAL of the story? If you really really need a SBR, get a
5.56, have it set up correctly and train with it knowing it has limitations like any other tool.
Re: SBR Rifles
Just use a proven system that has been in service with Navy NSW & USCG for quite awhile.
The MK18 is the solution you are seeking.
http://www.highcalibersales.com/Site/MK18_MOD0_Carbine.html
If you do not plan on suppressing the system, I would strongly recommend using the Noveske KX3 (aka Pig Brake)
They redirect all the flash and concussion that a 5.56 SBR generates downrange.
It's too bad that the 300 BLK is off the table for your agency.
You really would be ahead of the game if you could go that route.
For a CQB SBR, it is an incredible man stopper.
Certain military units have purchased the AAC 9" uppers and have reported some outstanding results.
The new Barnes Barrier Blind bullets and 125 SMK are a game changer.
There are more 300 BLK specific projectiles in development and they are likely to be released later this year.
Just use a proven system that has been in service with Navy NSW & USCG for quite awhile.
The MK18 is the solution you are seeking.
http://www.highcalibersales.com/Site/MK18_MOD0_Carbine.html
If you do not plan on suppressing the system, I would strongly recommend using the Noveske KX3 (aka Pig Brake)
They redirect all the flash and concussion that a 5.56 SBR generates downrange.
It's too bad that the 300 BLK is off the table for your agency.
You really would be ahead of the game if you could go that route.
For a CQB SBR, it is an incredible man stopper.
Certain military units have purchased the AAC 9" uppers and have reported some outstanding results.
The new Barnes Barrier Blind bullets and 125 SMK are a game changer.
There are more 300 BLK specific projectiles in development and they are likely to be released later this year.
Re: SBR Rifles
LOVE shooting my 7.5, 10.5, 11 & 12 SBR's. Ballistics aside, they're just plain fun to shoot.
LOVE shooting my 7.5, 10.5, 11 & 12 SBR's. Ballistics aside, they're just plain fun to shoot.
Re: SBR Rifles
Im drinking the Koolaid.. Going tomorrow to finalize my SBR build with my dealer. Ill be getting a Rock River Arms, 10.5" barrel with a few upgrades.
Im drinking the Koolaid.. Going tomorrow to finalize my SBR build with my dealer. Ill be getting a Rock River Arms, 10.5" barrel with a few upgrades.
Re: SBR Rifles
My Specialized Dynamics AR on the way is a 11.5" AR.
Specialized Dynamics lower, POF-USA SBR upper.
Downsides to SBR: VERY frickin loud. Usually incomplete powder burn. This means that from a maintenance perspective, the operator needs to pay more attention to maintenance of any barrel attachments, suppressors, et al. It also means that the effective distance of the firearm is going to be shorter, all things considered because the velocity of the bullet is going to drop. Also have to pay more attention to the way that the DI or piston configuration is constructed. The "envelope" for making it function reliably can be a bit tighter.
Up sides to SBR: In the "right" configuration for the job, can enhance applicability and agility of the operator for an agency. Lighter weight, potentially reduces fatigue in long operational periods.
As a civilian, I have to agree, its just plain fun to shoot. As an agency, I don't think they care so much about that aspect...
My Specialized Dynamics AR on the way is a 11.5" AR.
Specialized Dynamics lower, POF-USA SBR upper.
Downsides to SBR: VERY frickin loud. Usually incomplete powder burn. This means that from a maintenance perspective, the operator needs to pay more attention to maintenance of any barrel attachments, suppressors, et al. It also means that the effective distance of the firearm is going to be shorter, all things considered because the velocity of the bullet is going to drop. Also have to pay more attention to the way that the DI or piston configuration is constructed. The "envelope" for making it function reliably can be a bit tighter.
Up sides to SBR: In the "right" configuration for the job, can enhance applicability and agility of the operator for an agency. Lighter weight, potentially reduces fatigue in long operational periods.
As a civilian, I have to agree, its just plain fun to shoot. As an agency, I don't think they care so much about that aspect...
Similar threads
