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SBR to compliment a Precision Bolt Rifle in your gear

S

Saclee Rhino

Private
Minuteman
Jan 16, 2019
47
9
In terms of taking a Compact Suppressed AR15 in compliment to carrying your Precision Bolt Rifle what would be a best choice?

AR15 would be equipped with a PDW size stock.

Going with .223Rem/5.56NATO or 300BLK

I believe 300BLK you can have a smaller length barrel and still achieve full cartridge burn as apposed to .223Rem/5.56NATO.

Main concern is Size and Weight Constraint.

Was wondering on everyone's opinion on which caliber would be their preference for the requirement, and what the pros and cons are of each in this constraint.
 
I can add another caliber to the discussion because, well, that's what I have, so it must be correct, ;)...I have a 10.5" barrel, 6.8mm SPC SBR Noveske that I carry with me for hunting purposes. It shoots Barnes 95Gr TTSX or 100GR Nosler Accubonds and is deadly on deer and the compact rifle setup is less than 7#. I put it in my Eberlestock Gunslinger II pack and carry it in the inside of the pouch and it fits down completely with the stock collapsed.

I think any caliber is useful, although, I have never used a 300BLK so I am not familiar with its ballistics. The one thing I do like about the 6.8mm is it has 5/8 x 24" TPI thread pattern so the suppressor from the bolt gun can direct thread to it easily and I can interchange without a thread adapter.

Just one guys thoughts.
 
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JSTARSZ said:
I can add another caliber to the discussion because, well, that's what I have, so it must be correct, ;)...I have a 10.5" barrel, 6.8mm SPC SBR Noveske that I carry with me for hunting purposes. It shoots Barnes 95Gr TTSX or 100GR Nosler Accubonds and is deadly on deer and the compact rifle setup is less than 7#. I put it in my Eberlestock Gunslinger II pack and carry it in the inside of the pouch and it fits down completely with the stock collapsed.

I think any caliber is useful, although, I have never used a 300BLK so I am not familiar with its ballistics. The one thing I do like about the 6.8mm is it has 5/8 x 24" TPI thread patterns so the suppressor from the bolt gun can direct thread to it easily and I can interchange without a thread adapter.

Just one guys thoughts.
Click to expand...

My Bolt Rifle is a 308, so the obvious pro for 300BLK is being able to share Suppressor if needed. Assuming both rifles have the same threads.

Thanks for the other caliber alternative, looks interesting.
 
If you gave details on the intended purpose it'd help. For subsonic use the 300blk is the way to go. For supersonic only, the 6.8SPC and 6.5 Grendel are both better options.
 
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A 12.5” 6.8 or 6.5 SBR fit the bill very well as a complimentary hunting gun.... nice and compact, can easily be carried in conjunction with a big rifle if needed. Or be used as a stand-alone unit out to ~300 yards

A 8” 300BLK is a little bit nicer if you need it to work back in town too, and will still work on game with the right ammo.... but the effective range is more limited.

From a field/hunting perspective only, I think a 12”ish 6.8 or 6.5 Grendel with a LPVO is about as good a balance as you can get.
 
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I've done this. My precision rifle is an AR10 in 6.5 creedmoor. My SBR was a 12in 6.5 Grendel. For training purposes .223 is a lot more economical so I'm currently having the SBR rechambered in .223.
If your PDW barrel is at least 11.5 inches I'd go .223.
If you want an economical round I'd go .223.
If you want a quiet gun go 300blk.
If you want a barrel shorter than 11 inches go 300blk
If you want to hunt with the SBR go 12in 6.5 Grendel
If you want to swap uppers between an SBR and a precision AR go 6.8SPC (share bolt with .224 valkyrie)
 
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All depends on your use for the SBR. The different calibers are useful for different things. I have multiple SBRS from 5”-12.5” 9mm, 300blk, 458 socom, and 6.8. My favorite for plinking is my 300blk followed closely by my 9mm. For useful purposes such as hunting I like my 6.8. Nice balance of range, power, weight, mag capacity.

I am a bit confused as to why you would want to or need to carry a bolt gun and SBR hunting???? I understand in a combat environment but hunting I would just take the one that fits the intended role for the hunt.
 
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Baron85 said:
I am a bit confused as to why you would want to or need to carry a bolt gun and SBR hunting???? I understand in a combat environment but hunting I would just take the one that fits the intended role for the hunt.
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I do it all the time deer hunting out of a box blind. I put the big rifle in my backpack and carry the SBR slung up while I’m walking in. I often bump up hogs in the woods, just click on the weapon mounted light and pop a few At the very least have it ready in case they come my direction. Usually it’s just as accident but every once in a while I’ll get a big ole’ boar or momma sow come at me pretty heavy out of spite.
 
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Crews said:
I do it all the time deer hunting out of a box blind. I put the big rifle in my backpack and carry the SBR slung up while I’m walking in. I often bump up hogs in the woods, just click on the weapon mounted light and pop a few At the very least have it ready in case they come my direction. Usually it’s just as accident but every once in a while I’ll get a big ole’ boar or momma sow come at me pretty heavy out of spite.
Click to expand...


Interesting, well I guess that works. Where I used to hunt in East Texas we would be lucky to get a 150yd shot so the AR worked just fine but I guess if you had long shots from the blind and opportunity for fast close shots too and from the blind.
 
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I carry a Sig Rattler when i feel the need to have a bit more.

Honestly up here these days the rifle is for the game if I’m hunting which is rare, and the rattler is for other people.

We just had a guy drive through the foothills here shooting at people in their campsites, and we have had some “sierra club terrorist” type folks do some bad shit up here.
 
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What are you shooting at that you need a carbine/PDW/whatever with you when you're bringing your bolt gun is the real question?

Are you worried about random people out in the woods/desert, worried about a bear, worried about the deer finally getting sick of your shit and shooting back? This will decide on what you need to bring more than anything.

The other question you have to ask yourself is; do I need a M203?
 
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300 blk is a riot to shoot suppressed.
I have bolt gun and 10.5 sbr.

That being said they have limits on performance.
Subs are 100yd and less for practical purposes.

Read up on blk to see if it will meet your expectations.

My 300blk guns are fun, but will not do everything.

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Depends on the range imo. 300 blackout subs are probably only really viable for most folks' skills out to about 250 yards. I'd say it shines over 556 inside 100 yards supersonic as well. You can hit past that, but the flight time is pretty serious on the 300 subs making moving targets not so easy. The terminal ballistics on most 300 blackout subsonic is average at best.

556 is great for flat shooting to 250 yards and harassing accurately beyond that with supersonic ammo, but obviously won't be as quiet. Imo it comes down to trajectory vs noise— if you are using thermal or NOD where distancing and leading is difficult then I'd go with the flatter and faster super 556. If you just want a PDW on steroids then go with 300BLK supers or subs.
 
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I put these together for my brother. 6.5 creed bolt gun for long range and a 16" 223 for carrying around the ranch. If you're into SBRs I'd go 6.8 spc. It's a mean round inside 200 yards.
 

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Baron85 said:
Interesting, well I guess that works. Where I used to hunt in East Texas we would be lucky to get a 150yd shot so the AR worked just fine but I guess if you had long shots from the blind and opportunity for fast close shots too and from the blind.
Click to expand...

Yeah that's exactly the case where I hunt... I have the big rifle for deer hunting, but often I'll have big herds of hogs come shuffling through. That's when I'll bring up the SBR and cut loose on them from the stand. It's also very nice for riding around in the truck or UTV. Very compact and always within arm's reach when a shot presents itself. If I've got time and distance, that's when the long gun gets deployed.
 
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Appreciate all the input from everyone, very useful information from everyone, has helped alot with the decision making process.
 
Depends on what you want to spend too. The 5.56 is a better all-rounder but 11.5in is as short as I'd go.
 
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300 blk is the way to go for sbrs for the terminal ballistics. 223 needs velocity

The correct answer is get both
You can get the 223 9" Psa mauaraders cheap (bottom)
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Why SBR when a AR Pistol is so much easier to transport? There are a few PDW (HoneyBadger style) braces. The Maxim Defense is the shortest but it uses a proprietary buffer and spring and runs $350ish. The SB Tactical PDW brace is cheaper $250ish and uses a standard buffer and spring (which are not included). I like SBRs I have a few but frankly if youre going the AR route then a pistol is so much easier and you can have it immediately.

As for cartridge choice to back up a "full size" rifle, why choose another rifle cartridge? This seems like the place for a SMG (even a semi auto SMG). If you had the option of real SMG, Id opt for something like a Vz61 (the original Skorpion in 32acp); but failing the full auto option, Id still go for something small and lightweight. What about a Glock 35 (in 357SIG) with the FLUX arm brace. Its small enough to be holstered and with a RMR optic its a 200m gun. The FLUX and the RMR make it into a real PDW.

Best
 
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I have a 12.5" 6.8 and .223, both ARP barrels and shoot great. The 6.8 with a 5" can is my main deer rifle. Both are threaded 5/8-24 so I can use my 30 cal cans.
 
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If this is a backup gun then you're not worried about noise discipline. Plenty of reliable 7.5" 556 platforms/builds out there and of course you can get "longer and heavier" from there. You are going to save weight by carrying 556 over the BO. .300BO will hit hard inside 100m and of course it's going to be a quieter weapon suppressed. If compact carry, and quick employment, is a concern then I'm guessing the can isn't going to ride on the weapon 24/7. People will poo paw the 556 out of a 7.5" barrel but I've yet to see a volunteer for a 100-300m test. Plenty of energy there. I really like the BO because it's a good hunting round if you need to press it into that need. It's only a barrel change so in true black gun fashion...get both!

Noisy Cricket and the PWS brake tunes this one down to a 16" noise levels.

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Are we really talking about carrying a BACK UP rifle along with a Precision Rifle? Seriously Carrying two rifles into the field? Im new here but not new to the "field". I get the desire for a back up; but you loose me with a back up rifle? Help me what am I missing?

I can see wanting a handgun, maybe even a small SMG or a stocked (braced) pistol; but I just cant get my head around humping a second rifle. If you really feel the need for a back up rifle, maybe your primary rifle wasn't the best choice. Consider options like a HK G28 or the Brit L129A1. Both are semi autos based on the AR10 platform. The G28 has a 16" barrel and is a DMR grade rifle rated for 800m. Its not a full blown "sniper rifle" (only guaranteed for 1.5moa); but its a damn fine balance between a precision rifle AND a "back up" fighting rifle.

If you insist on a back up then ditch the AR platform and look a SMALL (lightweight) SMGs but even that wont be especially light once you factor in mags ammo and support gear; soooooo Im back to a handgun (I remember when a Colt Detective was considered "Back Up"). Today a RMR'd Glock is my back up. Its an easy 100m gun as is, add a brace (I really like the FLUX brace) and pick a cartridge like 357SIG and its a 200m gun. If you want even lighter and less recoil, theres the FN57; but theres no current RMR option or brace.

I know a handgun isnt as sexy as a SBR; but its a minor additional weight AND youre probably already telling yourself that you need to carry a pistol anyway.

Im new here and I like this place. Im NOT trying to piss in anyones Wheaties, Its just the idea of humping TWO rifles into the field IN CASE you need a back up sounds like something from a video game. Ill listen if someone can tell me where Im mistaken
 
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…..and if youre really stuck on a back up, I remember seeing a photo of a Brit sniper in ADEN. It was old enough that he was using a L42a1 rifle. His BACK UP was a M79 grenade launcher! Now THATS what I call BACK UP and its a damned sight better than a mini AR at saying "Leave me the F**K alone"
 
EDELWEISS said:
Are we really talking about carrying a BACK UP rifle along with a Precision Rifle? Seriously Carrying two rifles into the field? Im new here but not new to the "field". I get the desire for a back up; but you loose me with a back up rifle? Help me what am I missing?

I can see wanting a handgun, maybe even a small SMG or a stocked (braced) pistol; but I just cant get my head around humping a second rifle. If you really feel the need for a back up rifle, maybe your primary rifle wasn't the best choice. Consider options like a HK G28 or the Brit L129A1. Both are semi autos based on the AR10 platform. The G28 has a 16" barrel and is a DMR grade rifle rated for 800m. Its not a full blown "sniper rifle" (only guaranteed for 1.5moa); but its a damn fine balance between a precision rifle AND a "back up" fighting rifle.

If you insist on a back up then ditch the AR platform and look a SMALL (lightweight) SMGs but even that wont be especially light once you factor in mags ammo and support gear; soooooo Im back to a handgun (I remember when a Colt Detective was considered "Back Up"). Today a RMR'd Glock is my back up. Its an easy 100m gun as is, add a brace (I really like the FLUX brace) and pick a cartridge like 357SIG and its a 200m gun. If you want even lighter and less recoil, theres the FN57; but theres no current RMR option or brace.

I know a handgun isnt as sexy as a SBR; but its a minor additional weight AND youre probably already telling yourself that you need to carry a pistol anyway.

Im new here and I like this place. Im NOT trying to piss in anyones Wheaties, Its just the idea of humping TWO rifles into the field IN CASE you need a back up sounds like something from a video game. Ill listen if someone can tell me where Im mistaken
Click to expand...

Completely agree. A handgun in a hot round (10mm, .357 or even .44mag) is going to weight much less than an 8lb SBR.
 
Yep and add a brace then your in the SMG/PDW class. The FLUX collapses onto the pistol and makes it almost holster-able. They sell a belt holster for it but a thigh holster works better for me in the field. As a back up Id probably carry it in my pack or perhaps on a chest rig.
 
Not to derail this thread, but it seems relevant.

Anyone actually used/shouldered a Glock with one of those FLUX braces yet?

Seems like one may be eating slide if you're not careful, especially if it's wearing an RDS on top that could get your nose even if the slide is avoided.
 
300 BLK. Replace speed with weight and suppressed should be extremely quiet, read shootable from inside a vehicle w/o blowing your eardrums, with subsonic but retains the punch with weight. And why not skip the paperwork and just go pistol.
 
I still say SBR route. The ATF can change their position on pistols like they did before. Buying a PDW brace is just as much if not more than a tax stamp anyway.

I think you’re riding a fine line using an AR pistol and shouldering it. ATF says shouldering doesn’t reclassify it, but if they can prove your intent is to circumvent NFA requirements...you could be facing issues.

The SBR route is more of a hassle, but I think it’s better in the long run. Unless you want some trunk monkey gun to carry under your CPL or frequently cross state lines, the SBR is better.
 
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Agreed, if you’re really using your equipment the tax stamp is small potatoes. It’s nice to just put a real stock on your rifle and shoot it like a damned rifle.

Also, to the people suggesting a pistol FOR HUNTING.... you must have not tried to kill a hog with one. Or care about using suppressors. Or need a 30rnd mag. Or like to aim at things with optics and a good cheek weld.
 
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OK if we are talking about a Back Up for a precision rifle (as in you were trying to shoot someone with a sniper rifle) and you got compromised, do you REALLY F-ing care what ATF thinks about you shouldering a pistol brace OR are we back to video game thinking?

Youre certainly welcome to go the SBR route. You can file the paperwork, have your receiver engraved, pay the $200, then wait and wait and wait. Once the approval arrives, you no longer have to worry about what ATF says about pistol braces, but don't forget you cant take it out of state without written approval....UNLESS the guys at the video game company say its OK cuz you might need a back up rifle on your sniper mission for the IMF.

As for the FLUX brace, have any of you used one? I have. I bought in early because I recognized its potential. First it was naot made to be shouldered. You use it as a cheek brace (so only three points of contact hand hand cheek, instead of four points from a stock). Yes a stock would be better BUT Ive yet to find a better way to upgrade the Glock to a PDW. I carry my FLUX equipped Glock 34 daily, not in a holster but along with my gear bag.

Guys I know Im new here; but this is sounding beyond silly. If I heard this kind of talk when I was still wearing a badge, Id pinch my nose, squint my eyes and shake just a bit.
 
EDELWEISS said:
As for the FLUX brace, have any of you used one? I have. I bought in early because I recognized its potential. First it was naot made to be shouldered. You use it as a cheek brace (so only three points of contact hand hand cheek, instead of four points from a stock). Yes a stock would be better BUT Ive yet to find a better way to upgrade the Glock to a PDW. I carry my FLUX equipped Glock 34 daily, not in a holster but along with my gear bag.
Click to expand...

Have never handled, let alone seen, one in person, hence the questions.

I saw their video with the cheek weld, but wasn't sure if that was how they designed it to be fired or just wanted to avoid any future issues with putting out video of them shouldering it.
 
towerofpower93 said:
Have never handled, let alone seen, one in person, hence the questions.

I saw their video with the cheek weld, but wasn't sure if that was how they designed it to be fired or just wanted to avoid any future issues with putting out video of them shouldering it.
Click to expand...

As best I can tell without directly asking the question, although I have been in touch with the designer. It was designed NOT to be long enough to shoulder. Mine is mounted on a G34m which could handle longer "rails". I suspect something like the G40 (in the works) could definitely handle rails long enough to shoulder. That being said Im happy with the cheek weld, especially as it makes mounting the FLUX possible on shorter Glocks.

Using a braced (and RMRd) Glock as a "PDW" isn't a bad idea, especially when concealment is just as important as firepower. The FLUX is a huge improvement over the clamshell designs and even more so over the ones that use the Endo tactical "horseshoe" adapter for a AR buffertube.
 
The King said:
The Steyr TMP/Brugger and Thomet was the original holsterable SMG
Click to expand...


Ahhhhhh youre forgetting the Vz61 Skorpion which actually was issued with a belt holster, and while much heavier the M10 which was considered as a possible replacement for the 1911, and a few other Warsaw Pact designs that never made it to the West. Lets not forget the Mauser Schnellfeue 712 (full auto version of the Broomhandle) or the Beretta 93R. I can keep going.

The B&T is a good SMG but hardly the first....
 
I meant more along the lines of it being an machine pistol that hit minute of barn with most shooters. Shooting an M3 felt like I could dump a mag faster from an AR. That thing is so damn slow.
 
#1 on my list once I move to NFA friendly state is the Noveske PDW 7.5 300. Very similar to the Honey Badger but it's black and looks a little cooler IMHO. One day..
 
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