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Scale drift A&D Fx-120 vs Sartorius

secondofangle2

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  • Jul 3, 2017
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    In a recent Cortina video with Doug Skogman, Doug says that the sartorius scales are rocksolid and do not drift like the FX – 120. As a result, he claims it speeds up the reloading process because of less need for zeroing a drifting scale repeatedly. Does anyone have experience with both scales that can comment on this?
     
    We have quite a few sartorius balances in our lab at work which I use often, and I use an fx120i at home for loading.

    If the environmental conditions are stable, I don't find that the fx120i has excessive zero or calibration drift even when sitting idle for several days; I find it very comparable to our sartorius balances in the lab. I've left it powered up for a week before and it's still at 0.000 and setting the calibration weight on shows 100.000 grams.

    Also keep in mind the fx120i has 4 settings for zero tracking. If you find the balance getting stuck at +/- 0.02 grains or 0.001-0.002 grams frequently and you have to rezero often, try increasing the zero tracking setting. Stronger zero tracking is fine for the charge weights we're measuring, but if you were trying to weigh something near the minimum resolution of the balance (0.001-0.002 grams) the balance may think it's drift and it will try to rezero itself with a stronger zero tracking setting preventing you from weighing such a light sample.
     
    Excellent info thanks.

    Sounds like you don’t think the Sart is worth the extra salt
     
    I can't say for sure as I've never used a sartorius for reloading, but my hunch is the extra resolution the higher end sartorius balances are capable of is "in the noise" unless your brass and bullets are all perfectly uniformed and all other variables tightly controlled. (Not to mention are you inspecting each kernel of powder for uniformity as surface area can have an influence on burn rate... The rabbit hole keeps getting deeper the more you look.)

    I don't find the fx120i to suffer from excessive calibration or zero drift provided you're using it in an area without rapid temperature swings, and the update rate over the serial port as well as the stable time seems to be fast enough not to have negative impacts on the cycle time of the automatic reloading equipment that is available right now.

    If we're talking about the actual difference in es and SD and group size with powder charges that were weighed to +/- 0.0005 gram accuracy with a sartorius vs +/- 0.001 gram accuracy with an fx120i, I'm not sure you could draw a definite conclusion in accuracy gains because there are several other variables in the entire reloading and test firing process that can influence the result; only when all the other variables are adequately controlled could you draw a meaningful conclusion about the effect of only the balance used to weigh the charges, and it would have to be a statistically significant sample size (say 50-100 loaded with an fx120i vs 50-100 loaded with a sartorius, with possibly the same pieces of weight/volume sorted brass used for each batch of ammo, all bullets sorted by weight and bearing length, etc.)

    I think most of us here are looking for that happy medium that provides reasonable charge weight variation to produce good SD/ES along with quick dispensing and cycle times, and I think the fx120i achieves that.

    I'll leave weighing charge weights to +/- 0.0005 gram / 0.00077 grain to the national record bench rest shooters and those more ocd than I am; I don't have the patience for that, lol.

    Now, if the sartorius has a faster update rate over the serial port or has a faster stable time that can speed up the cycle time and accuracy of an automated dispenser compared to an fx120i, I think that's a more interesting and useful thing to consider.
     
    Don't be afraid to call AD either. I did when I had trouble with staic and they were very helpful. If the environment is stable, the ad scale is great and doesn't drift. It doesn't take much air movement or static though and I ended up buying am ionizer to run before loading as well as changing how I had my grounding Matt set up and fixed any issue. I have absolutely zero trouble now and I check with a few different check weights very regularly ect... thr AD really is all you need for loading. I looked into the Satorious as well and I'm not apposed to it but after testing what that difference "could potentially be", I found out I literally wouldn't gain anything at all by switching. If there was something to gain I probably would have one because it's just my nature to want to do whatever as well as I can.
     
    Don't be afraid to call AD either. I did when I had trouble with staic and they were very helpful. If the environment is stable, the ad scale is great and doesn't drift. It doesn't take much air movement or static though and I ended up buying am ionizer to run before loading as well as changing how I had my grounding Matt set up and fixed any issue. I have absolutely zero trouble now and I check with a few different check weights very regularly ect... thr AD really is all you need for loading. I looked into the Satorious as well and I'm not apposed to it but after testing what that difference "could potentially be", I found out I literally wouldn't gain anything at all by switching. If there was something to gain I probably would have one because it's just my nature to want to do whatever as well as I can.

    Static is absolutely a large concern for zero drift and accuracy, and that's the primary reason I built my dispenser with a large draft shield that sits well away from the pan area, the drop tube and powder cup are both metal and conductive, and the scale, bulk dispenser, drop tube and IP trickler are all grounded.

    All that because my old chargemaster being all plastic was terrible for static buildup in the winter and I was wondering why my es/sd was so high. Turns out there was enough static buildup on the draft shield that when you rotated it closed over the pan it would affect the zero by 0.3-0.4 grains or so, so the zero was no longer valid and constantly drifting and the charge weights were all over the place. A wipe down with a microfiber sprayed with anti static endust took care of it for a few days, but after chasing that problem around for a while I'm wary of any kind of plastic that can hold a static charge being near the scale pan or powder hopper.
     
    I can't say for sure as I've never used a sartorius for reloading, but my hunch is the extra resolution the higher end sartorius balances are capable of is "in the noise" unless your brass and bullets are all perfectly uniformed and all other variables tightly controlled. (Not to mention are you inspecting each kernel of powder for uniformity as surface area can have an influence on burn rate... The rabbit hole keeps getting deeper the more you look.)

    I don't find the fx120i to suffer from excessive calibration or zero drift provided you're using it in an area without rapid temperature swings, and the update rate over the serial port as well as the stable time seems to be fast enough not to have negative impacts on the cycle time of the automatic reloading equipment that is available right now.

    If we're talking about the actual difference in es and SD and group size with powder charges that were weighed to +/- 0.0005 gram accuracy with a sartorius vs +/- 0.001 gram accuracy with an fx120i, I'm not sure you could draw a definite conclusion in accuracy gains because there are several other variables in the entire reloading and test firing process that can influence the result; only when all the other variables are adequately controlled could you draw a meaningful conclusion about the effect of only the balance used to weigh the charges, and it would have to be a statistically significant sample size (say 50-100 loaded with an fx120i vs 50-100 loaded with a sartorius, with possibly the same pieces of weight/volume sorted brass used for each batch of ammo, all bullets sorted by weight and bearing length, etc.)

    I think most of us here are looking for that happy medium that provides reasonable charge weight variation to produce good SD/ES along with quick dispensing and cycle times, and I think the fx120i achieves that.

    I'll leave weighing charge weights to +/- 0.0005 gram / 0.00077 grain to the national record bench rest shooters and those more ocd than I am; I don't have the patience for that, lol.

    Now, if the sartorius has a faster update rate over the serial port or has a faster stable time that can speed up the cycle time and accuracy of an automated dispenser compared to an fx120i, I think that's a more interesting and useful thing to consider.
    That’s what I’m after, speed more than additional precision. And that’s what Doug said the sartorius offered in the video.

    And the drift and re-zeroing does slow things down, probably increases in accuracy or inconsistency, and definitely increases worry and decreases my security about the consistency of the charge weights
     
    Last edited:
    That’s what I’m after, speed more than additional precision. And that’s what Doug said the sartorius offered in the video.

    I haven't watched the video, but is he talking about wasted time from constant rezeroing, or the update rate over the serial port and stable time of the scale slowing down the automated dispenser?

    The first can probably be resolved with a more stable environment and/or zero tracking setting change, the later would need a scale with faster hardware.

    I may rezero my fx120i 2 or 3 times when loading 200 rounds in a session; increasing the zero tracking really helps with that, and I only typically rezero if I knock a few kernels onto the pan and have to brush it off. I've never had it drift calibration over a loading session, and I usually check that at the beginning, middle, and end of a session.
     
    I have no experience with the Sartorious, but I don’t have any issues with drift using my FX120i. I leave it on 24/7 and don’t have to re-zero it very often at all.

    Not sure how much it matters, but mine sits on a granite surface plate and the power at my place is fairly stable (both things probably help).

    I use the @-Obsessed- V3 panel kit with mine, and like @Kiba mentioned, the only thing I really look out for is the plastic picking up static… so if I experience anything wonky, I rub down all the plastic with a dryer sheet and things go back to normal.
     
    No zero drift problems with my FX120i.

    I live in a dry climate and used to have all kinds of static issues with my precision scales. Adding a a humidifier to my furnace solved most of my problems. Grounding my scales (and my presses) plus using a clean power source pretty much eliminated any residual issues.
     
    I'd imagine that either A) you'd have to load a ton, and I mean a ton of rounds and/or B) you'd have to be constantly zero'ing the scale......for this to end up saving a significant amount of time in the long run.

    We load a lot of ammo using Fx120i and will spend any reasonable amount of money to gain speed where we can. But this seems like very much a min/max opinion on his part. Nothing wrong with that at all. But I'd be skeptical how much actual time you save. Especially since he basically just said it in passing and didn't emphasize the point.
     
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    It is important to understand that all scales drift, if for no other cause than change in temperature but there are other causes that can cause a scale indicated weight to drift in use.

    As for the drift that people see after powering up a scale the cause is the change in temperature of the electronics and initially can be quite noticeable . That is why most if not all manufactures recommend a warmup period. This drift occurs primarily due to electronics and is independent of whether the scale is a load cell, force balance, balance beam or any other technology. Once the temperature stabilizes the drift will subside. The drift does not typically go to zero but varies due to minor variations in temperature which effect the very high gain electronics. When it appears the scale no longer drifts this assumption is based on the fact that any drift only appears when it exceeds the display resolution. In a 0.1gr scale that's 0.1 gn. On a 0.02gn scale that's 0.02 grains. If you consider a Fx-120i, which is often referred to as a 0.02gn accuracy scale, drift can add a 0.019gn bias error that the operator cannot see. The 95% repeatability (based on 0.001g SD) this scale is 0.03gn. This gives a repeatability of 0.03gn + 0.02gn (resolution) so the is 0.05 gn repeatability. If the scale is not re-zeroed prior to every measurement the error can become 0.069 gn. Essentially, undetected, uncorrected scale drift can double the error associated with the scale resolution. In this case 0.02gn becomes 0.04gn.

    It is good laboratory practice to re-zero the scale before each weighing. In fact the following is from Section 3.2 of the AnD manual:

    "Press the RE-ZERO key before each weighing to eliminate possible errors."

    There are other error that re-zeroing eliminate. One of the most common is the buildup of skin oil and dirt that accumulates on the weighing pan when handled with bare hands. Some scales will also drift under repeated use due to hysteresis. Re-zeroing a scale does not affect its calibration.

    Amazingly, usually higher cost scales/balances drift less than lower cost scales. This is usually due to quality of the components used and the possible use of different circuitry to minimize the drift.
     
    It is important to understand that all scales drift, if for no other cause than change in temperature but there are other causes that can cause a scale indicated weight to drift in use.

    As for the drift that people see after powering up a scale the cause is the change in temperature of the electronics and initially can be quite noticeable . That is why most if not all manufactures recommend a warmup period. This drift occurs primarily due to electronics and is independent of whether the scale is a load cell, force balance, balance beam or any other technology. Once the temperature stabilizes the drift will subside. The drift does not typically go to zero but varies due to minor variations in temperature which effect the very high gain electronics. When it appears the scale no longer drifts this assumption is based on the fact that any drift only appears when it exceeds the display resolution. In a 0.1gr scale that's 0.1 gn. On a 0.02gn scale that's 0.02 grains. If you consider a Fx-120i, which is often referred to as a 0.02gn accuracy scale, drift can add a 0.019gn bias error that the operator cannot see. The 95% repeatability (based on 0.001g SD) this scale is 0.03gn. This gives a repeatability of 0.03gn + 0.02gn (resolution) so the is 0.05 gn repeatability. If the scale is not re-zeroed prior to every measurement the error can become 0.069 gn. Essentially, undetected, uncorrected scale drift can double the error associated with the scale resolution. In this case 0.02gn becomes 0.04gn.

    It is good laboratory practice to re-zero the scale before each weighing. In fact the following is from Section 3.2 of the AnD manual:

    "Press the RE-ZERO key before each weighing to eliminate possible errors."

    There are other error that re-zeroing eliminate. One of the most common is the buildup of skin oil and dirt that accumulates on the weighing pan when handled with bare hands. Some scales will also drift under repeated use due to hysteresis. Re-zeroing a scale does not affect its calibration.

    Amazingly, usually higher cost scales/balances drift less than lower cost scales. This is usually due to quality of the components used and the possible use of different circuitry to minimize the drift.

    Yep, all true. My fx120i moves around the most during the first 30-45 minutes or so of on time while it's warming up. I won't use it or check calibration until it's had at least 30 minutes to warm up and stabilize. A stable environment and clean power help keep things in check after the warmup period.

    Stronger zero tracking helps with drift as it will automatically rezero the scale for you when the pan is stable within a couple digits of zero, provided you aren't trying to weigh a very small sample near the minimum resolution of the balance where it would interpret the tiny sample weight as zero drift. But as you mentioned, frequent manual rezeroing is best practice, and that goes for any balance. With an automatic reloader you could incorporate logic into the code to send a manual rezero command to the balance every time the powder cup is placed on the bed and the balance is reading say +/- 0.003 grams indicating the cup is empty. This would slightly slow the dispensing process as you would have to wait for the stable zero weight, then the rezero command to be sent and the scale to rezero, but it would aid in maintaining a good zero without bias drift below the display resolution of the balance.

    If you wanted things to be faster the code could be set to send the manual rezero command every 5 or 10 charges, assuming the drift and bias error won't grow to unacceptable levels over the time it takes to dispense and weigh 5-10 charges.

    The biggest benefit to a higher resolution sartorius over the more common fx120i IMO isn't the better resolution allowing you to weigh down to less than a single kernel of powder, but the tighter standard deviation and repeatability it offers. The fx120i has an advertised repeatability of 0.001g, while the higher end sartorius is an order of magnitude better at 0.0001g. Thus you can be more confident of the powder charge being weighed exactly to 1 kernel on the sartorius with typical stick powders, while on the fx120i you may be within a +/- 1 kernel span. Can you see that difference in charge weight certainty on your chronograph or target? You would have to do a lot of very controlled testing to determine that, and with variations in brass, bullets, primers, barrel wear and cleanliness, chamber and barrel temp, powder moisture content, and environmental conditions IMO it would be hard to conclusively prove that an exact to the kernel charge is more accurate on target than a +/- 1 kernel charge being you can't control all the other variables in the test with 100% confidence. Still, it is another variation in the process you can minimize, and a sartorius or similar will give you to the kernel confidence in your charge weight. Is it worth the extra money over an fx120i that provides +/- 1 kernel confidence in your charge weights with typical stick powders? That's up to the user.

    Even if you spend $1000+ on a sartorius you'll still search for something to blame when you throw a flyer on the target though, lol.
     
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    There is no doubt that reducing variability is a good goal, the only question is how much does a given unity of variability reduction cost. In this case, I don't care about spending $2k on a Sartorius, it's my hobby and I don't have a fancy car or McMansion, so it's how I may get the fuzzies as above. Plus I have a fetish for stuff made in Germany.

    My bigger worry is that it will be harder to troubleshoot, or will cause other difficulties with use, or will have a shitty resale market/value, or will break and be hard to service - stuff like that.
     
    @Kiba, points well made. Not knowing which Sartorius I didn't want to confuse the issue or compare apples and oranges. You are absolutely correct that the higher resolution scale such as a a milligram scale will increase the confidence in the charge. Point is drift is real and contributes to error even when you can't see it. Does it matter? Again that is up to the user. There is actually another issue related to the whole "+/- 1 kernel" illusion taking powder variation out of the picture. It assumes that each charge of powder has no change in heat of explosion. While the variations are small they can and do exist. Most powders are formed by mixing either various lots of the same powder formulation (just like a good whiskey) or mixtures of different formulations. Solids, unlike whiskey are much more difficult to uniformly mix. Some powders include different size powders in the formulation and those powders can actually segregate in handling after packaging.
     
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    There is no doubt that reducing variability is a good goal, the only question is how much does a given unity of variability reduction cost. In this case, I don't care about spending $2k on a Sartorius, it's my hobby and I don't have a fancy car or McMansion, so it's how I may get the fuzzies as above. Plus I have a fetish for stuff made in Germany.

    My bigger worry is that it will be harder to troubleshoot, or will cause other difficulties with use, or will have a shitty resale market/value, or will break and be hard to service - stuff like that.

    I'd imagine resale would be semi-terrible. Not too many out there looking for one when they can have or already have an FX120i.

    The rest are probably not too big an issue.
     
    IMG_5944.jpeg


    I ran a Sartorious from about 2008 or 09 until 2016 when I bought my AT V2.

    With the Sartorious I’d under throw charges on a ChargeMaster or a Redding powder thrower and trickle up on the Sartorious.

    It was literally plugged in and turned on for the entire time I owned it, other than power failures. It rarely drifted, and when it did it was usually due to me moving too quickly while I was near it.

    It was a great scientific balance, but in the end the three decimal place resolution drove me insane.

    After I got the Auto Trickler I gave it to fellow shooter to drive him insane.

    I succeeded.

    He complains about the Sartorious whenever I bring it up.
     
    I like my FX120. It drift a little but I don’t see how .02 grains can make any difference for me. Unless you had a lab like atmosphere I don’t see how you stop drift.

    I am damn sure not loading in my house without the ac on in the summer.
     
    Excellent info thanks.

    Sounds like you don’t think the Sart is worth the extra salt

    not only Sartorious is not worth an extra money, it's the fact that nobody on this world wont outshoot A&D FX120i. and on top of it, A&D is probably better with Autotrickler than Sartorious.
    So you have not only wasted your money, you have more manual work to do...
     
    I have a Sartorius 213-1s. I use with an AT v2. I turn it on before a loading session, enter the weight I want, and start throwing charges. My target 308 load is 41.52 grains of IMR 4064. I will accept 41.50, 41.52, and 41.54. It almost never underthrows - say 1 in 300 maybe better. I get about 1 overthrow per 20. I think that happens because the powder has clumps. It never drifts. If it doesn't stop on zero, there is a kernel of powder on the pan or in the shot glass that I can't see. I paid about $800 for it. When I bought the Sartorius, the AD was not so widely popular is it is today so popularity didn't enter into the decision. If I had it to do again, I would probably end up with the AD just so I could get hints from y'all. I think it is a good scale and I recommend it. Maybe it costs too much - whatever. I have wasted more money on things that didn't work as well.
     
    Just wanted to add to this a really easy way to help yourself. These scales have a grounding lug on them for a reason. Here's a way to make a super simple grounding wire that will work well. Just don't hook up the other wires obviously, and make sure you have then ends where you cut them separated and each taped up, then I'd do the heat shrink like I did with the goo inside that makes it bullet proof. You have a really easy and good ground and will help with static a lot.
     

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    Just wanted to add to this a really easy way to help yourself. These scales have a grounding lug on them for a reason. Here's a way to make a super simple grounding wire that will work well. Just don't hook up the other wires obviously, and make sure you have then ends where you cut them separated and each taped up, then I'd do the heat shrink like I did with the goo inside that makes it bullet proof. You have a really easy and good ground and will help with static a lot.
    Yes read that on A&D faqs page. Says to connect ground wire to work bench, but I suppose that will work too. Keep us updated on how it works out.
     
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    Yes read that on A&D faqs page. Says to connect ground wire to work bench, but I suppose that will work too. Keep us updated on how it works out.
    I have mine set up on an anti static Matt, which is grounded, and then the scale is grounded itself as shown in my pics above. This is the best way to do it I believe and what the AD guy I talked to on the phone a few years back, told me to do. I had a battle with static and there's a thread here on that.

    Grounding to a work bench would only work if the bench was metal so, not sure what the context of that is but I know grounding to the common ground in a plug at your house will ground it well.
     
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    Ever since I took the super spiller off of my scale, and sold it, the scale does not drift one tiny bit day after day after day

    It was the damn super spiller. And I sure hope Paul makes absolutely sure whatever base he creates for his new ingenuity system that it doesn’t affect scale drift.
     
    Ever since I took the super spiller off of my scale, and sold it, the scale does not drift one tiny bit day after day after day

    It was the damn super spiller. And I sure hope Paul makes absolutely sure whatever base he creates for his new ingenuity system that it doesn’t affect scale drift.
    He's got a special coating on all of it that is supposed to prevent that but he's also got some other features on his to be able to ground everything. Paul is pretty dang knowledgeable about static and drift issues and is just a thorough kind of guy. I know for a fact that he's at minimum considered how static will work on every single piece of his kit so I am expecting it to be better than anything out there in the static and grounding ability aspect, and we know the trickler already works fantastic so, I have extremely high expectations for his unit. The only "issue" will be when he actually is ready to send them out. With all of these special features comes additional things that can cause delays because they all have to be made and sourced ect so the more special crap you have, the more potential for delay. When it does get released, I suspect it will be king of the hill for quite some time.
     
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