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Rifle Scopes Schmidt and Bender 5-25x56PMII MTC

sakohunter

Private
Full Member
Minuteman
Oct 1, 2010
17
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58
Queensland, Australia
Howdy Brains Trust

Shortly I will be ordering a 5-25x56PMII P4F DT Mil Mil and would like to know whether the MTC turrets are going to become the future standard or remain another option ?

I am not interested in the MTC turrets, however, I don't want to sit on the fence too long and miss out on a non-MTC model?

Regards
 
Re: Schmidt and Bender 5-25x56PMII MTC

Just another option. The dual turn knobs will still be available.

Great choice in an optic by the way. You will be very happy with it.
 
Re: Schmidt and Bender 5-25x56PMII MTC

Only you can answer that. For my uses there isn't any need and I personally don't like them in general. I have had a couple Premiers with them and they weren't for me.
 
Re: Schmidt and Bender 5-25x56PMII MTC

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Battista74</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hmmm now what I am wondering is it really worth $200 more for a "more tactile click"? </div></div>
I just bought a 5-25x with MTC turrets and it was the same price as the DT turret. If S&B offered only one turret, it would be the DT, IMO. The MTC turret has a military origin and purpose, but is sold to civvies as well. I presume you can have a 5-25x scope converted to either turret type for a few hundred dollars.
 
Re: Schmidt and Bender 5-25x56PMII MTC

Unless your shooting and dialing your dope in absolute darkness behind a UNS the MTC knob is really not a necessity.
 
Re: Schmidt and Bender 5-25x56PMII MTC

I have a 3-12 mtc and a buddy who has a 5-25 standard feels that the clicks are actually less precise and harder than his. Don't know if this is just this one or all. Hope this helps a bit.
 
Re: Schmidt and Bender 5-25x56PMII MTC

The MTC on a Premier seemed nice but to me the S&B already feels stiff so I do not think the MTC would be desirable.
 
Re: Schmidt and Bender 5-25x56PMII MTC

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sniper2ndrep</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Unless your shooting and dialing your dope in absolute darkness behind a UNS the MTC knob is really not a necessity.</div></div>

Not a necessity, but kinda nice. I typically dial my dope without looking at the turrets. If it is more than a couple of clicks, I have to change position to actually see where I am dialing.

With MTC, you can dial without looking. I used to think everybody did it this way, but I guess not. BTW... I am not dialing in total darkness.

It is incredibly fast to dial in, say, 5.2 mils. CLUNK, CLUNK, CLUNK, CLUNK, CLUNK, click, click. You are basically counting out 7 clicks. Try counting out 5.2 mils with normal turrets... click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click.
 
Re: Schmidt and Bender 5-25x56PMII MTC

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sniper2ndrep</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Unless your shooting and dialing your dope in absolute darkness behind a UNS the MTC knob is really not a necessity.</div></div>

Not a necessity, but kinda nice. I typically dial my dope without looking at the turrets. If it is more than a couple of clicks, I have to change position to actually see where I am dialing.

With MTC, you can dial without looking. I used to think everybody did it this way, but I guess not. BTW... I am not dialing in total darkness.

It is incredibly fast to dial in, say, 5.2 mils. CLUNK, CLUNK, CLUNK, CLUNK, CLUNK, click, click. You are basically counting out 7 clicks. Try counting out 5.2 mils with normal turrets... click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click. </div></div>


If your 5.2 mils off and need a fast follow up shot wouldn't you just hold? That's a hell of a lot faster than even 7 clicks....
 
Re: Schmidt and Bender 5-25x56PMII MTC

Who says its for a follow up shot? I can change targets and dial without looking. I can read a dope card and turn without looking. I don't have to look. That is the beauty of it... doesn't matter why.

Yes, I realize that in each of these situations, I could get up over the stock and see the numbers around the ocular. Or, I could just count them out without moving or straining.

It is kind of like, why have a remote control when the tv is just 10 feet away. Can you think of a situation where you won't be able to cross the living room to get to the tv? I dunno, maybe because it is just so damned easy... Once you get accustomed to it, you don't look at the numbers any more. I guess that's not for everyone.

I can see why people go without a lit reticle... if it is too dark to see your reticle, it is probably too dark to tell what you are shooting at, but I like MTC and don't know why you wouldn't want it.

On my Premier, the main issue is that I skip over the click after the clunk a lot and have to dial back. That's a small downside to the upside. For $200 more, I would do it, and it has nothing to do with being able to make adjustments in low light or any sort of tactical reason... more like a tactile reason.
 
Re: Schmidt and Bender 5-25x56PMII MTC

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
On my Premier, the main issue is that I skip over the click after the clunk a lot and have to dial back. </div></div>

The main reason I don't like them. Getting to .1 or .2 mils past the heavy detent usually requires dial back to it as you go past it. Same if dialing back down to .9 or .8.

Some like it, I don't care for it.
 
Re: Schmidt and Bender 5-25x56PMII MTC

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
On my Premier, the main issue is that I skip over the click after the clunk a lot and have to dial back. </div></div>

The main reason I don't like them. Getting to .1 or .2 mils past the heavy detent usually requires dial back to it as you go past it. Same if dialing back down to .9 or .8.

Some like it, I don't care for it. </div></div>

All MTC knobs generally start out that way. After use the parts will burnish in and coming out of the detent (clunk) will get much easier. It does take a lot of use to do this though and you have to weigh the amount of use against the cost and the training to get used to the MTC function.
I have handled many scopes with MTC and if you get used to it, the MTC can be a very useful tool, BUT for most (casual users) it may become an annoyance.
The S&B model requires a changing of a few parts to make a non MTC into an MTC or vice versa and must be done at the factory. The Premier requires just grinding down a small tab on the click element and the MTC can be removed.
Don't know if this helps or not.

Paul
 
Re: Schmidt and Bender 5-25x56PMII MTC

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
On my Premier, the main issue is that I skip over the click after the clunk a lot and have to dial back. </div></div>

The main reason I don't like them. Getting to .1 or .2 mils past the heavy detent usually requires dial back to it as you go past it. Same if dialing back down to .9 or .8.

Some like it, I don't care for it. </div></div>

I can see that being a slight annoyance. What annoys me about my NF is that it starts out at zero lined up, but as you turn the turret, the markings get more and more off. at 2.5 mils, my line is sitting between 2.5 and 2.6. I just know this because I know it. With MTC, there is no making this mistake. Not that this is a common issue or anything. I think it is an issue with my particular scope.

My biggest annoyance is using CW turrets. That was the main reason I didn't want to go with S&B. When I was looking, there was a big upcharge for CCW (maybe it is a standard now).

I have a Zeiss and it is confusing as hell. First, I have to figure out what I should do, then I have to do the opposite.
 
Re: Schmidt and Bender 5-25x56PMII MTC

I had both a S&B and a premier with the MTC. The premier had a much better feel. The S&B was real stiff and was very hard to get .1mil out of the MTC. Like the others said, you have to dial back to it because it would jump past. I traded in the S&B for this reason and took a loss. I like the concept of the MTC but in the S&B case it was a detriment. S&B's are my favorite scope ( I own four) so this isn't to put them down. I would strongly suggest if you have an opportunity.... "try it before you buy it"! I wish I did.
Good Luck
 
Re: Schmidt and Bender 5-25x56PMII MTC

Carter CCW are no upcharge.
 
Re: Schmidt and Bender 5-25x56PMII MTC

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
On my Premier, the main issue is that I skip over the click after the clunk a lot and have to dial back. </div></div>

The main reason I don't like them. Getting to .1 or .2 mils past the heavy detent usually requires dial back to it as you go past it. Same if dialing back down to .9 or .8.

Some like it, I don't care for it. </div></div>

I can see that being a slight annoyance. What annoys me about my NF is that it starts out at zero lined up, but as you turn the turret, the markings get more and more off. at 2.5 mils, my line is sitting between 2.5 and 2.6. I just know this because I know it. With MTC, there is no making this mistake. Not that this is a common issue or anything. I think it is an issue with my particular scope.

<span style="color: #FF0000">My biggest annoyance is using CW turrets. That was the main reason I didn't want to go with S&B. When I was looking, there was a big upcharge for CCW (maybe it is a standard now).</span>

I have a Zeiss and it is confusing as hell. First, I have to figure out what I should do, then I have to do the opposite. </div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="color: #FF0000">Carter CCW are no upcharge. </span></div></div>
S & B charges for <span style="font-style: italic">CCW (and CW) <span style="font-weight: bold">Conversions</span></span>, so if you want CCW adjustments on an existing scope that has CW adjustments (or CW adjustments on an existing scope that has CCW adjustments), you'll have to pay S & B's current Conversion Charge.

As Gen 2 XR reticles are no longer an option on new S & B scopes, I've had two "German" PMII 5-25X CM CW Gen 2 XRs' converted to CCW. The first one had to go to Germany in 2008 while my second was serviced at <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">S & B's U.S. Service Center</span></span> in New Hampshire in April of this year. The cost was $450.00 including return (Ground) shipping back to me. Door-to-door turnaround time was twenty-four (24) days.

<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">New scopes can be ordered with CCW adjustments with no upcharge.</span></span>


Keith
 
Re: Schmidt and Bender 5-25x56PMII MTC

Keith obviously there will be a charge if they have to change it. He was saying there was a charge for a new scope last he looked. Just clearing up that there isn't now.
 
Re: Schmidt and Bender 5-25x56PMII MTC

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Keith obviously there will be a charge if they have to change it. He was saying there was a charge for a new scope last he looked. Just clearing up that there isn't now. </div></div>
Rob, I understand that. And while you, Carter Mayfield, and I may understand that, unfortunately it isn't so obvious to some people. I've seen people post and ask if S & B charges for reticle changes and CCW conversions. Yes, I have.

My reply was a clarification for all, as the term <span style="font-style: italic">"upcharge"</span> can be interpreted as an <span style="font-style: italic">upgrade</span> charge as well as an <span style="font-style: italic">option</span> charge. There are some BNIB PMII 5-25X 1/4 MOA LP CW Gen 2 XRs' available right now from authorized an S & B dealer who advertises here and other places on the web.

Now suppose someone buys one (or more) of these scopes with the intention of having S & B convert the turrets to CCW ($450.00) or 0.1 MIL ($450.00) without realizing that S & B charges for these services. I believe that the scope owner would be upset to find this out, especially after paying $3400.00 for the scope itself.

I apologize to <span style="font-style: italic">sakohunter</span> and everyone else for veering off the original topic, but I think its' important that the clarification was made.


Keith
 
Re: Schmidt and Bender 5-25x56PMII MTC

I gotcha... that was what I was thinking. I was going to get a used Gen 2 reticle scope and convert it to CCW. Overall, that package ended up being too expensive, so I got the Premier. I guess if you want Gen 2 + MTC, Premier is probably the way to go anyway.

There are some CCW S&B's with Gen II's floating around, but you have to be lucky to grab one and usually, the value is built in.
 
Re: Schmidt and Bender 5-25x56PMII MTC

No problem Keith. I was just clarifying what I posted as in purchasing a new scope. Didn't want anyone thinking that CCW cost more than CW.
wink.gif
 
Re: Schmidt and Bender 5-25x56PMII MTC

Thanks to Alex, the nice new 5-25x56PMII turned up at my door today!

My spec was on back order for a month or so - P4F Mil Mil CW.

True to form Euro Optics are good to deal with, thanks again guys!
 
Re: Schmidt and Bender 5-25x56PMII MTC

Not out yet Gasser. Keep an eye out though around SHOT time.
 
Re: Schmidt and Bender 5-25x56PMII MTC

I love the MTC on my Premier. It is not for everyone, and it took some getting used to. I rarely have a problem hiting one tenth past full mils. I don't know if that is more a product of the hardware breakin, or the software (me) just getting used to it.

I still look at my turrets when I can, I hold for corrections. I technically NEED the MTC rarely, but it is faster and more reasuring even when I am watching the numbers appear on the turret.

If S&Bs feel different, that is something I don't know. I have yet to try one. I have had a couple of guys order a S&B with MTCs after spinning my turrets, so I may find out soon.
 
Re: Schmidt and Bender 5-25x56PMII MTC

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sniper2ndrep</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Unless your shooting and dialing your dope in absolute darkness behind a UNS the MTC knob is really not a necessity.</div></div>

Not a necessity, but kinda nice. I typically dial my dope without looking at the turrets. If it is more than a couple of clicks, I have to change position to actually see where I am dialing.

With MTC, you can dial without looking. I used to think everybody did it this way, but I guess not. BTW... I am not dialing in total darkness.

It is incredibly fast to dial in, say, 5.2 mils. CLUNK, CLUNK, CLUNK, CLUNK, CLUNK, click, click. You are basically counting out 7 clicks. Try counting out 5.2 mils with normal turrets... click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click.</div></div> whats a clunk lol