- Thread starter mzvarner
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Knowing everything and being educated on a subject is not exactly the same thing.
It's easy to be considered a "Know it all", when your surrounded by a sea of idiots and ignorance.
People who label others "know it alls" when they are providing solid and verifiable advice tend me be the bottom of the barrel in the brains dept.........just saying.
It's easy to be considered a "Know it all", when your surrounded by a sea of idiots and ignorance.
People who label others "know it alls" when they are providing solid and verifiable advice tend me be the bottom of the barrel in the brains dept.........just saying.
School me on gun safes
I"m not trying to call anyone out here but there are a lot of "I bought a ________ and I really like it." statements going around here. Of course everyone is going to like the safe that they bought. Would you go to a store and buy a safe, gun, or car you didn't like? It doesn't matter if you like the safe, it matters if it will hold up to a thief or fire.
There are far too many people that have "safes" and don't know shit about them. Guage of steel? No clue! Means of fire protection? No clue! But my safe says it'll withstand 2000 deg. for two hours. Using drywall!!!! The safe might be there, and there might be shit in the safe, but you won't recognize it.
I'm really not trying to come off as a dick here but the standard "I like my safe" without any sort of objective reasoning isn't really helping the dialogue here. Other than giving Cobra a chance to tell you that your safe is a piece of shit. And he's right!
Now before someone goes ahead and tries to call me out of my last post for not stating objective facts about the Sturdy and AMSEC safes, google the specs on these two brands vs. the others mentioned. It doesn't take very long to realize they are a cut above the rest.
I"m not trying to call anyone out here but there are a lot of "I bought a ________ and I really like it." statements going around here. Of course everyone is going to like the safe that they bought. Would you go to a store and buy a safe, gun, or car you didn't like? It doesn't matter if you like the safe, it matters if it will hold up to a thief or fire.
There are far too many people that have "safes" and don't know shit about them. Guage of steel? No clue! Means of fire protection? No clue! But my safe says it'll withstand 2000 deg. for two hours. Using drywall!!!! The safe might be there, and there might be shit in the safe, but you won't recognize it.
I'm really not trying to come off as a dick here but the standard "I like my safe" without any sort of objective reasoning isn't really helping the dialogue here. Other than giving Cobra a chance to tell you that your safe is a piece of shit. And he's right!
Now before someone goes ahead and tries to call me out of my last post for not stating objective facts about the Sturdy and AMSEC safes, google the specs on these two brands vs. the others mentioned. It doesn't take very long to realize they are a cut above the rest.
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If you plan on moving a lot, or need a mobile safe, gun safes are an ok idea. However, if you live in a home, and you have the space. You can convert or add on to your house and have a much larger safe for the same price. Look in to having a safe room built (not safe room as in Hollywood non sense) but more like a closet that has been converted.
I am going to chime in here. I had a liberty top end safe, bought for the fire rating, price and looks. Well Jan 4th I lost my home in a fire, lost over 95% of my firearms thet were in the safes. Those that were not totalled were sent to Hudisco for repairs( Thanks again for the snipershide cerakote discount).
Liberty is backing the safe, a replacement is being built.. NO it doesnt make me feel good to know I had a warranty( think the movie tommy BOy here), as I had hoped the safe would do its job... inspection showed fire seal never sealed, and all contents were affected by steam, soot, and smoke.
Add to this I live in NY and my NY insurance company found a way to delete coverages due to the safe act BS.
My advice... BUY extra insurance outside of homeowners, Dont put all items in ONE location, BUY a real safe... AMsec of similar. If you dont have money for one, dont buy anymore firearms until you have the safe. Good Luck
Liberty is backing the safe, a replacement is being built.. NO it doesnt make me feel good to know I had a warranty( think the movie tommy BOy here), as I had hoped the safe would do its job... inspection showed fire seal never sealed, and all contents were affected by steam, soot, and smoke.
Add to this I live in NY and my NY insurance company found a way to delete coverages due to the safe act BS.
My advice... BUY extra insurance outside of homeowners, Dont put all items in ONE location, BUY a real safe... AMsec of similar. If you dont have money for one, dont buy anymore firearms until you have the safe. Good Luck
You want a used tl-15 or tl-30 from fleabay or anywhere you can find it. They are UL approved and insurable to 3 million. Watch the tl-30 break in attempt on youtube.
The 30 weighs 5,000lbs and is like fort knox.
The 30 weighs 5,000lbs and is like fort knox.
Like I mentioned in my first post, looking into a used vault can get you into some serious protection for a lot less than you might think. Getting it into your home is another story entirely.
Used Original Platinum Vault UL TL30X6 6434 High Security Elite Safe - Lackasafe Gun Safe
Used Original Platinum Vault UL TL30X6 6434 High Security Elite Safe - Lackasafe Gun Safe
I have 3 safes.
2 I bought used, had them blasted and powder coated, new S&G dials they are TRTL30x6. Other is a Graffunder. It was a demo model and the exact size I needed for the location and priced very right.
All of the above safes are steel plate on all sides, not just the door. They are heavy. The smallest weighs over 4 tons.
They are not cheap.
A safe only buys time and is only one step in the security process. I don't trust drywall and anything measured in 'gauge' to buy time.
If you can't afford steel plate…save $.
2 I bought used, had them blasted and powder coated, new S&G dials they are TRTL30x6. Other is a Graffunder. It was a demo model and the exact size I needed for the location and priced very right.
All of the above safes are steel plate on all sides, not just the door. They are heavy. The smallest weighs over 4 tons.
They are not cheap.
A safe only buys time and is only one step in the security process. I don't trust drywall and anything measured in 'gauge' to buy time.
If you can't afford steel plate…save $.
I ended up getting a Stack-On Total Defense 54-gun safe--
Had a Winchester 30 gun safe from Costco before, which was a great deal at $600. It was 30m rated at 1400 degrees, held roughly 15 guns (lol @ "30 gun capacity"), was 12 gauge steel. Had 4 way locking bolts, but the lock would constantly eat batteries to the tune of 1-2 9v batteries a month. Frustrating. When faced with the prospect of moving it to AZ, I just ended up returning it to Costco after 3 years for an 80% refund. I wanted something larger with maybe a little more fire rating.
I'm sure that there's gonna be a bunch of naysayers, but here's my logic:
Feel free to armchair quarterback my purchase, I can still return it if I've made an oversight.
- Electronic lock includes a drill resistant, hardened steel plate behind the lock for greater security. A backup key is included. Batteries are accessible from the front of the safe and are easy to replace.
- Tested and verified to be fire resistant for 60 minutes up to 1400° F by ETL an independent testing lab.
- Waterproof in up to 2 ft. of standing water for 72 hours. Independently tested and verified by ETL. Safe must be bolted to the floor to maintain Waterproof rating.
- 4-Way locking with 7 NEW 1.5" live action locking and 3 dead bolts for 10 locking points.
- Safe holds 54 rifles or shotguns, or 36 firearms and storage or 18 firearms and storage or all storage. New door storage organizer maximizes storage possibilities. 8 Adjustable shelves included. Fully carpeted interior.
Had a Winchester 30 gun safe from Costco before, which was a great deal at $600. It was 30m rated at 1400 degrees, held roughly 15 guns (lol @ "30 gun capacity"), was 12 gauge steel. Had 4 way locking bolts, but the lock would constantly eat batteries to the tune of 1-2 9v batteries a month. Frustrating. When faced with the prospect of moving it to AZ, I just ended up returning it to Costco after 3 years for an 80% refund. I wanted something larger with maybe a little more fire rating.
I'm sure that there's gonna be a bunch of naysayers, but here's my logic:
- This model has (1) hour fire rating @ 1400 degrees, which at the ~$1k-$1500 price point, is higher than the average of 30m-45m.
- Waterproof, which is something I don't see on any other competitors, but in the event of a flood or pipe burst it may be desirable.
- The steel thickness is on par with just about everything in its market segment, up to about the $4000 price point, excluding AmSec
- AmSec offered nothing in this segment that was this size and not going to taze me to the tune of $700 for delivery and a vastly inflated retail price that was 3x what I ended up paying.
- SturdySafe and its competitors wanted upwards of $4000 for a comparably sized safe that was fire resistant, but much more theft-resistant (7 gauge steel, ETL rated, etc.)
- It's bolted down and against a wall to where you cannot get leverage to flip the safe on its back and pry at the door see-saw style like:
the infamous gun-safe break-in demonstration - I mainly wanted to prevent against children having access to my guns, the occasional "crime of opportunity" visitor, a smash and grab, or any amateur burglar.
- I had an old roommate who was a locksmith \ access control professional, and he explained to me that basically any safe that is marketed to consumers is a waste of time against a "professional thief", and that I was better off with great insurance and a safe-deposit box for any true "irreplaceable" items.
- None of my guns or items that will go in my safe are heirlooms or overly sentimental, all of them could be replaced with insurance to no care of my own.
Feel free to armchair quarterback my purchase, I can still return it if I've made an oversight.
+1 To What HH4 Said
I work for SAFE CITY In Mesa AZ and Fort Knox makes an incredible Safe. The owner of Safe City Jesse Knows more about all the specs compared to other safes but Fort Knox is incredible. They have an excellent fire rating offer many options their customer service is top notch they offer an unlimited lifetime warranty. I strongly recommend Fort Knox products.
Something to keep in mind when buying a safe that I tell customers frequently is two things.
1. You are putting all your eggs in one basket so to speak. So you go cheap and get broken in to their goes all your eggs.
2. Think cost of safe to value of what is being stored ratio. People come in and tell me they only have $1000 to spend on a safe. That'll buy you about a 25 cubic foot safe and most likely it's gonna be a china product. Now, if you have say $3,500 worth of possesions that you want to store in said safe well maybe $1000 is a great investment. But if you have say for example $150k worth of things that you're going to be putting into this safe as mentioned in the video then definitely I would say go buy a $5-$10,000 safe.
One of the great things I love about Fort Knox is you can take for example a Guardian which comes standard 10ga body 10ga front plate on the door which wraps to a solid 1/4" backplate. By the way the body is what they call Unibody construction meaning it's bent into it's shape not welded together. Also on the welds they do on the safe they are penetrating welds which offer added strength. But say you start out with that safe 10ga body you can add inner steel liners to the safe in 10ga increments or about 2 years ago they started offering ArmaKnox which is a liner made out of AR500 which as we know since most of us on here on the hide have shot at the stuff is pretty strong steel. It makes for a really nice safe and keep in mind it's tougher to go through say two 10 ga than just 1 1/4" plate.
Hope some of this helps and I wish you the best of luck with your purchase. The last thing I will say is buy larger than you currently need. So many of our customers outgrow their first safe within a few years so do it right the first time unless you plan on owning two safes.
I was under the impression that the code for an electronic safe isn't stored in the keypad itself, and that it merely acts like a keyboard for a computer, hence just swapping out the keypad interface and entering that 'other' code won't open a different safe.
Not correct?
+1 on Burnouts post above (may 6)
Mechanical locks can and do fail. Although it's usually due to:
-Wear over a long period of time (used safe purchasers beware)
-Misapplication of lubricants inside the lock case
-Screwing up a combination change and then LOCKING THE DOOR! (no cure for stupid - always write the new combo down and try it at least three times before closing the door - and yes, the bolt works on all safes may released for testing w/o the door being locked)
Mechanical locks can and do fail. Although it's usually due to:
-Wear over a long period of time (used safe purchasers beware)
-Misapplication of lubricants inside the lock case
-Screwing up a combination change and then LOCKING THE DOOR! (no cure for stupid - always write the new combo down and try it at least three times before closing the door - and yes, the bolt works on all safes may released for testing w/o the door being locked)
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I looked this up, I'm looking for a big one to go with my heavy duty one (I've written tons of info on this stuff on here, TL30 if you can afford it, BF series Amsec if you can't) and this guy's link above is the best price I could find too. GREAT deal on that BF7250 if you need one that large for sure, especially with the 4ga. liner. Once you add it in the cart, you'll see the discounts.
From the safe pros/industry people ive talked to, it must be stored inside somewhere. They said 9 times out of 10 you can attach a new keypad to the legacy wires and open the safe using the original keycode.
I own a couple AMSEC meself and they have the electronic key pad. I found out the other day a great advantage to having one. A good friend of mine died unexpectedly a couple weeks ago. He was single and his 2 daughters have moved out of the house.
Luckily, a week before he died he'd updated his will and POA. Of course his daughters couldn't get into his safe. They tried every combo they could think of to no avail.
A quick phone call and email to the safe manufacturer with the model number, serial number, POA and copy of death certificate yielded a master code number that allowed them access. If this hadn't happened the local safe cracker wanted $800 to drill it.
+10 for e-locks
Luckily, a week before he died he'd updated his will and POA. Of course his daughters couldn't get into his safe. They tried every combo they could think of to no avail.
A quick phone call and email to the safe manufacturer with the model number, serial number, POA and copy of death certificate yielded a master code number that allowed them access. If this hadn't happened the local safe cracker wanted $800 to drill it.
+10 for e-locks
If the lock is attacked and keypad knocked off, you can attach an identical keypad to the wires and open the safe with the original code. The code is stored inside the safe lock module in every lock I've seen.
It is common that if an elock fails, the first thing you do is change the batteries. The second is swap the keypad. Those two things often get the lock working again.
Mechanical locks are often attacked and the spindle punched back into the safe. This immediately sets off internal relockers and you will likely need a safe specialist to open it. Depending on the safe, this can be an expensive job as it requires specialized tools, knowledge of bolt/relocker locations, and competence to do the work and not destroy everything.
Drilling a safe with a mechanical or e-lock does not ruin the safe. You can drive a hardened pin into the drill point afterwards and it could actually be tougher to re-drill than the original material.
I've never seen a meth addict/burglar with a safe drill rig, carbide bits, and borescopes to drill a safe so don't worry about having a safe drilled. Worry about them smashing the safe with everything around it. Or using power tools on it.
I wouldn't personally buy any safe unless it had a minimum 1/4" plate steel door. And that's minimum. I think 1/2" is the minimum with 1/4" or so walls. A lot of safes wrap cheap sheet metal around drywall and it looks thick, but the steel is very thin and easily peeled away.
Bang for the buck, there is no question the Amsec BF series is the way to go. It is far more secure than safes costing much more money from other major brand makers.
Residential Security Rating means very little. It is not until you hit the UL TL ratings that it matters. For a gun safe I say again to make sure it has real plate steel in the door and walls. If you want fire protection, avoid anything with drywall as the insulation and go for a safe with a poured fire liner (like the BF series have).
Note that TL rated safes are *not* fire resistant at all. Even torch rated safes (TRTL) may not be fire rated, although they might do OK. The safe needs to have both ratings for burglary and fire to mean anything.
It is common that if an elock fails, the first thing you do is change the batteries. The second is swap the keypad. Those two things often get the lock working again.
Mechanical locks are often attacked and the spindle punched back into the safe. This immediately sets off internal relockers and you will likely need a safe specialist to open it. Depending on the safe, this can be an expensive job as it requires specialized tools, knowledge of bolt/relocker locations, and competence to do the work and not destroy everything.
Drilling a safe with a mechanical or e-lock does not ruin the safe. You can drive a hardened pin into the drill point afterwards and it could actually be tougher to re-drill than the original material.
I've never seen a meth addict/burglar with a safe drill rig, carbide bits, and borescopes to drill a safe so don't worry about having a safe drilled. Worry about them smashing the safe with everything around it. Or using power tools on it.
I wouldn't personally buy any safe unless it had a minimum 1/4" plate steel door. And that's minimum. I think 1/2" is the minimum with 1/4" or so walls. A lot of safes wrap cheap sheet metal around drywall and it looks thick, but the steel is very thin and easily peeled away.
Bang for the buck, there is no question the Amsec BF series is the way to go. It is far more secure than safes costing much more money from other major brand makers.
Residential Security Rating means very little. It is not until you hit the UL TL ratings that it matters. For a gun safe I say again to make sure it has real plate steel in the door and walls. If you want fire protection, avoid anything with drywall as the insulation and go for a safe with a poured fire liner (like the BF series have).
Note that TL rated safes are *not* fire resistant at all. Even torch rated safes (TRTL) may not be fire rated, although they might do OK. The safe needs to have both ratings for burglary and fire to mean anything.
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Found an even better deal: Shopping Cart - WestCoastSafes.com
TL-15 shipped with 3% vet discount for about $5300 including the forklift to unload it, and $6300 for a TL-30 shipped including lift rental. 72x36x23 interior. TL-15 almost the same size as the BF7250 gunsafe for almost the same price from safes4you.com but much, much tougher.
I'd seriously check these guys out. They have the Graffunder, they look damn nice, but if security is what you're after you need the UL listing TL or higher. Graffunder's best is an E rating, which is similar to TL-15 but not certified by UL. The best Graffunder's weigh HALF what these TL's do; a TL-15 the size I mention is 2 tons. Keep that in mind. But if you want luxury nice, they look the part. The TL's are just heavy ass metal boxes with shelves on the inside.
E locks are convenient and easy to use under stress, but too easy to breech, especially if the thief has access to your house (and most thefts occur due to prior knowledge of the home's contents). One simple way is to dust the keypad for the code, another is to use an algorithm, but there are numerous other ways even more ingenious. I'll leave it at that.
Gun safes are light enough to snatch and use a lift gate to take. Many are designed to keep the weight at JUST under 2000lbs. for this reason, to be unloaded by lift gate. You'd be surprised how fast a snatch can be pulled off. The TL-15 I mention is double the weight of a lift gate's limits, so you're gonna need a diesel tow truck, or something like that, in order to pull off the same heist.
In short, best bang for buck is gonna be a TL anything with a mechanical lock.
Few things to clear up here:
1. No, the TL rated safes generally ARE fire rated. Much higher than most gun safes in fact. Mine and the one I'm looking at are both rated to 1850deg. for 2 hours. Just make sure the one you get has the listing pasted on the door frame. Most TL's are plate steel with integrally poured steel nugget aggregate concrete.
2. The e lock code is not stored in the keypad, there's another circuit inside the door, but that doesn't mean you can't rip the fucker off and still hack it. In fact, were I gonna breech a safe, the ONLY time I'd fuck with the door at all is if it has one of those e locks. I've broken enough codes in the past on alarms, card access and keypad entry, and the technology isn't any different.
3. All safes generally have overbuilt doors. You are concerned about the walls and such, the stuff you DON'T see when looking. Everyone notices the door, the door, the door. Fuck the door. Reason the industry is moving to TL-30x6 (6 walls equal to the door) is because everyone has figured out that it's easy as shit to demo the side out, and hiding it in your closet ain't gonna work because the same tool I'd use to cut the wall off the safe is the same one I'd use to cut through you're front door, your closet wall, whatever (no, it's not a sawzall). After I disable your alarm and any cameras first.
4. You can still breech a TL, but it's damn hard and it ain't likely gonna happen in a residential setting.
5. "Pros" aren't movie James Bond types. They're former security techs and insiders, and they're all around you. Shit, you're talking to one now in fact. Only difference between a "pro" and an excellent security tech is their chosen line of work (which sometimes overlaps). So be careful who you let in your house, particularly your alarm tech!
Former security insider.
update:
http://www.amazon.com/7036-Original-Platinum-Vault-ULTL30x6/dp/B00HWCBEVI
Found locally, delivered and installed, for $6500. TL-30x6 rating, 70x36x26 interior. This is THE best deal I've found, bang for buck, even better than the Amsec. I've installed jewelry stores with much less that were UL rated installs.
One guy found one of these four years ago used for $4900 plus shipping, so new and warranted and installed for $6500 ain't too shabby. Expensive, but if you own even one rifle that costs more than the whole safe, then it's worth it in the end.
1. No, the TL rated safes generally ARE fire rated. Much higher than most gun safes in fact. Mine and the one I'm looking at are both rated to 1850deg. for 2 hours. Just make sure the one you get has the listing pasted on the door frame. Most TL's are plate steel with integrally poured steel nugget aggregate concrete.
2. The e lock code is not stored in the keypad, there's another circuit inside the door, but that doesn't mean you can't rip the fucker off and still hack it. In fact, were I gonna breech a safe, the ONLY time I'd fuck with the door at all is if it has one of those e locks. I've broken enough codes in the past on alarms, card access and keypad entry, and the technology isn't any different.
3. All safes generally have overbuilt doors. You are concerned about the walls and such, the stuff you DON'T see when looking. Everyone notices the door, the door, the door. Fuck the door. Reason the industry is moving to TL-30x6 (6 walls equal to the door) is because everyone has figured out that it's easy as shit to demo the side out, and hiding it in your closet ain't gonna work because the same tool I'd use to cut the wall off the safe is the same one I'd use to cut through you're front door, your closet wall, whatever (no, it's not a sawzall). After I disable your alarm and any cameras first.
4. You can still breech a TL, but it's damn hard and it ain't likely gonna happen in a residential setting.
5. "Pros" aren't movie James Bond types. They're former security techs and insiders, and they're all around you. Shit, you're talking to one now in fact. Only difference between a "pro" and an excellent security tech is their chosen line of work (which sometimes overlaps). So be careful who you let in your house, particularly your alarm tech!
Former security insider.
update:
http://www.amazon.com/7036-Original-Platinum-Vault-ULTL30x6/dp/B00HWCBEVI
Found locally, delivered and installed, for $6500. TL-30x6 rating, 70x36x26 interior. This is THE best deal I've found, bang for buck, even better than the Amsec. I've installed jewelry stores with much less that were UL rated installs.
One guy found one of these four years ago used for $4900 plus shipping, so new and warranted and installed for $6500 ain't too shabby. Expensive, but if you own even one rifle that costs more than the whole safe, then it's worth it in the end.
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