Rifle Scopes Scope Leveling

sentry1

sentry1

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Jul 7, 2012
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Madison, Alabama
#1
I leveled my scope using one of those Wheeler scope level kits. I made sure to check the levels on a flat surface, and notched one side of each level so I know which in which orientation they line up best.

The problem I have is that my bipod throws it off kilter. There's a few degrees of cant to the whole rifle when I put the bipod on a flat surface. So, does it really matter if the scope is leveled to the bolt raceways? Or am I better of to just re-level the scope so the crosshairs are vertical and horizontal in the position it's most often in?
 
#2
Re: Scope Leveling

I'd recommend upgrading your bipod to a swivel model. If you're on a budget, the Caldwell model works fine. Don't worry too much about the scope level. Get it close enough that it doesn't bug you, and forget about it.
 
#4
Re: Scope Leveling

The object of leveling the reticle is to make sure the scope is centered/in line over the bore. You want the bullet to "theoretically" drop in line with the verticle post. If the reticle is not level, the bullet will seem to drop sideways (barring any influence from other factors such as wind). This condition makes it pretty tough to compensate at longer distances. on another note, not all bolt raceways are on the same horizontal plane. I've had good luck removing the scope, rings and base and putting them on a flat steel surface and using an inverted square to sight my scope backwards and line up the reticle on the edge. Then you can mount it back on the rifle. This works best if the mounting holes are perfect on the receiver. I hope this makes sense. Fix the bipod not the scope!
 
#5
Re: Scope Leveling

Don't worry about leveling the crosshairs perfectly to your rifle. The most important thing is to level the crosshairs to the earth from the position that you will most likely be shooting. Hang a weighted string or plumbob about 50 feet away. Shoulder your rifle and adjust your crosshairs to be in line with that string.
 
#6
Re: Scope Leveling

I've had good luck recentally using the Wheeler Engineering Professional Reticle Leveling System. Midway Product #: 189016
This one levels off the rifle scope base (best if using picatinny or such that is flat on top) and not the raceways. So far its been really good for the last 5-6 scopes I've mounted
 
#8
Re: Scope Leveling

I figured this was what I should be doing. Bullet drop is dictated by gravity, not the orientation of the action, correct? So I put a Holland scope level on and leveled the scope using a weighted string. I think I'm going to go with a front and rear bag over the bipod.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 317millhand</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Don't worry about leveling the crosshairs perfectly to your rifle. The most important thing is to level the crosshairs to the earth from the position that you will most likely be shooting. Hang a weighted string or plumbob about 50 feet away. Shoulder your rifle and adjust your crosshairs to be in line with that string. </div></div>
 
#9
Re: Scope Leveling

Here's a 1-star Amazon.com review of Pesja's <span style="font-style: italic">New Exact Small Arms Ballistics: The Source Book for Riflemen</span>:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1.0 out of 5 stars
Hard to believe claims of incredible accuracy
September 24, 2011
By J. Rosser Bobbitt

I'm a physicist trying to understand an engineering text.

Why are the equations presented in flat line styles? Most word processing programs have excellent equation writing modules.

His equations fail dimensional analysis. How can you have an expression that subtracts reciprocal feet from reciprocal yards without first converting yards to feet? E.g., on page 15 appears (1/R-1/F) where R is in yards and F is in feet. On the same page he acknowledges that range (r) in feet divided by 3 yields range (R) in yards. On page 17 he has an example calculation with 1/200 yards minus 1/3720 feet. Without converting yards to feet, I get his answer. This is weird math.

On page 16, F=Fo-NxR, where F and Fo are in feet, N is a dimensionless feet per foot rate, and R is in yards. So, yards are subtracted from feet without converting the yards to feet. Remember that lowercase "r" has already been defined as range in feet.

On page 15 appears the expression G=3 x square root of g/2, were G is the "gravitational constant" and g is the acceleration due to gravity (32.17 fps/s). Earlier on page 14 he states that G=41.68, but no units are given. However, 3 times the square root of 32.17/2 is 12.03 not 41.68.

Symbology is inconsistent. Most multiplication is represented by an "x" but occasionally with the bullet symbol. On page 11, "r" is range apparently in yards but also in feet, but "R" is also range in yards. On page 17, Fa is described as F at range "a" in yards.

Given these problems so early in the book make it impossible for me to believe Pejsa's claims, no proof given, of incredible accuracy. I'm very disappointed.</div></div>
 
#11
Re: Scope Leveling

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 317millhand</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Don't worry about leveling the crosshairs perfectly to your rifle. The most important thing is to level the crosshairs to the earth from the position that you will most likely be shooting. Hang a weighted string or plumbob about 50 feet away. Shoulder your rifle and adjust your crosshairs to be in line with that string. </div></div>

i dont see how this can work...

my dad is no tactical marksman, but he always held his rifle a little side ways when he shot and then levels the cross hairs horizontal to the earth.

every time i throw up one of his rifles, it feels way off to me.

anyway, to the point...he shoots right handed and the bottom of his rifle is kicked out laterally how he shoots.

to me, if he sights it in at a hundred hard zero, it will be right on the money. any closer than a hundred yards it seems it would shoot to the right and further than a hundred yards, it would shoot to the left.


and the further out you got, the distance off would be incredible...at say a thousand yard.

he rarely shoots over 200 yards, so it isnt much of an issue for him.
 
#15
Re: Scope Leveling

I agree with hyena74! That's what I was trying to get at in my previous post. You have to get the setup as perfect a possible and correct your form.

For the theory that you level the scope to the horizon and the attitude of the rifle does not matter - try this. Exaggerate the effect by mounting your reticle at a 45 deg angle or better yet 90 deg and tell me how the point of impact changes at different distances.
 
#16
Re: Scope Leveling

<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/lQgXPA4A2J0&feature=channel&list=UL"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/lQgXPA4A2J0&feature=channel&list=UL" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>

Very clean and simple
 
#17
Re: Scope Leveling

After some trial and error, I ended up using the exact method in the video above. There are multiple ways to do it...find the method that you feel most comfortable with and makes the most sense for you.
 
#18
Re: Scope Leveling

I just started using the feeler gauge method and it seems to work the best for me. Its really simple and I've tried it on 3 different scopes with 3 different bases and ring heights and it seems to get it dead on ever time. Then i use a scope level to make sure i am shouldering it level when firing.
 
#19
Re: Scope Leveling

Levelling the reticle to the action is an arbitrary relationship that is still subject to outside influences, as you just figured out.

Tip: loosen up the bipod mounting screw (Harris-type, right?), and rotate the stock side-to-side atop the bipod's cradle. When the reticle looks level, retighten it. Lots of freedom there, it allows for some minor slants of bench surfaces.

Don't get overly anal-retentive over this level-reticle/level action relationship stuff; it only really introduces a windage component when rezeroing from one distance to a significanty different one.

The slant needs to be pretty obvious before it becomes a serious detriment to actually making a hit. Unseen downrange wind currents will usually be a bigger factor.

It's easy to get caught up in the physics, but what really needs to happen is a sense of proportion that weighs the various effects against each other. Everything is proportionate, and the wind occupies the biggest proportion on most misses.

Greg
 
#20
Re: Scope Leveling

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cornholeo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">+1 for feeler gauges</div></div>

+2. Quick and easy. I did two scopes with feel gauges last week and it worked very well.
 
#21
Re: Scope Leveling

Never have gotten a real warm-n-fuzzy from the feeler gauge method. I know a lot of people use it and swear by it, but so far, no worky for me.

My preferred method involves taking the barrelled action and clamping it in a barrel vise with a level across the top of the scope rail. Then I mount the scope & rings on the rail, and put a level on the elevation turret to confirm. Finally, I mount whatever I'm using for a scope level at the same time. Hasn't failed me yet.
 
#25
Re: Scope Leveling

Used feeler gauge method on our last 4 guns we've changed scopes on and they have been nuts on thru the entire range we needed for 1000 yards. Tracks perfectly up the line. Had another fella we were helping at Rayners a few weeks ago, he hadn't tracked his scope and at every distance change he'd have to crank in more wind while we hadn't had to add any.

We had a set of gauges with us and my son did a quick adjustment leveling the scope with the base using the gauges and after a windage adjustment he was getting first round hits at quite a few of the stations.

Takes a bit to get the feel of just how tight to fit the gauges allowing for snugging of the rings but it is an excellent easy way to get it right. Then level the gun and set the bubble and good to go. Had a number of friends that after setting the bubble swear the reticle is crooked but we keep telling them to go with the bubble, it won't lie to you no matter how the crosshairs look in the scope while on target.

Topstrap
 
#26
Re: Scope Leveling

Feeler guage method here as well. Deck of new playing cards works really well, and wont scratch your scope up if you care about that sort of thing.
 
#27
Re: Scope Leveling

for clarification purposes: the feeler gauge method that is being thrown around is very similar to the nssf video posted but instead of taking up the space by turning the metal on the side as done in the video one stacks the appropriate number of feeler gauges so that all the space it taken up? if i am correct, how easily should this feeler gauge spacer be to slip in and out of the bottom of the scope and my scope base?
 
#28
Re: Scope Leveling

It should be snug but not so tight the smaller blades bend or crinkle up trying to insertit in. The thing to remember is that you are just making sure that the flat side of the scope is parallel to the flat part of the base so when you insert the feeler gauge from either side it should be equally snug.
 
#30
Re: Scope Leveling

+1 on the feeler gauge. Flat plate of metal with perfectly parallel edges should work also.

Mentioned earlier, if you take it to the Nth degree: the hope is the base is mounted so the axis of the scope and the bore are co planar first, then the reticle is "leveled" so the vertical component of the crosshair passes through the bore axis.
 
#31
Re: Scope Leveling

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: FamilyMan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It should be snug but not so tight the smaller blades bend or crinkle up trying to insertit in. The thing to remember is that you are just making sure that the flat side of the scope is parallel to the flat part of the base so when you insert the feeler gauge from either side it should be equally snug.</div></div>
I'll also add that a little bit of CLP on the surfaces helps.
 
#33
Re: Scope Leveling

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: strat81</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: FamilyMan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It should be snug but not so tight the smaller blades bend or crinkle up trying to insertit in. The thing to remember is that you are just making sure that the flat side of the scope is parallel to the flat part of the base so when you insert the feeler gauge from either side it should be equally snug.</div></div>
I'll also add that a little bit of CLP on the surfaces helps. </div></div> +1
 
#35
Re: Scope Leveling

I have the double level from Wheeler. Put on on the pic rail if possible, put it near the safety inside the action rails. Next get a 4 foot level and draw crosshairs on a white piece of paper and put it about 50 yards away on a piece of board or whatever. Take the level with you and make sure it is level when you put it up. Make sure the gun bubble is level then line the crosshairs up with the crosshairs you drew on the white piece of paper and tighten down. Anybody on here see why this wouldn't work? I have found that the scope caps are not always level with the crosshairs.
 
#37
Re: Scope Leveling

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Killer Spade 13</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You don't "LEVEL" scopes, you "ALIGN" them.</div></div> You are right and I stand corrected
 
#38
Re: Scope Leveling

yes you want it level with the bore not with the uneven or semi even ground your shooting on canting the reticle. If it is not level with the bore your zero will start coming off center and off into the reticle left or right depending on which way it was off center
 
#39
Re: Scope Leveling

It is NOT the scope that you want level. You want X axis of the bore perpendicular, or level with if you will, the pull of gravity.

Once you've accomplished this, then you set the vertical stadia of the scope perpendicular to the X axis of the bore so that it is perfect alignment with the pull of gravity.

Cylindrical alignment may or may not be possible predicated upon the placement of the tapped holes for attachment of the scope base.

Generally speaking, the best datum plane of the rifle to determine perpendicularity to the pull of gravity is that which is defined by the lower surfaces of the bolt lug grooves in the action.

I don't have an engineering drawing of a receiver, but I would hazard a guess that the bolt lug grooves are one of the controlling datum planes in the machining process. Now I'm not stating that these surfaces are the primary datum, but I'm sure they play an important part. Just guessing, I'd think that the threaded bore into which the barrel is screwed would be the primary datum.

Sorry for the rant and tirade, but any cant of the rifle necessitates the condition the the scope is no longer "level", but may still be in alignment with the axis of the bore.
 
#40
Re: Scope Leveling

I used feeler gauges. That method was recommended to me by NF as one option. I have a NF scope and pic rail. They told me that the flat part on the bottom of the scope is acceptable for leveling the scope. The problem with some of the gadgets that use the scope cap is that the caps are not all level. NF told me that my scope cap is not to be used to level the scope. Newer models may be different, but that is what I was told in 2008.
 
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