Ok so I am new to this forum, but I have a question for yall. I am reloading 6.5cm. And my best load has been 41.5 h4350 with 140gr eldm. I am using starline small primer brass, and federal match primer. With a 5 shot group I get an es of 30,.....it would be 8, which I would be happy with, but I always get 1 outlier that throws it off. I consider myself to be very anal when it comes to my loading, and I can't figure out why I keep getting that 1 outlier that throws off my es.
Sd, ed, not where i want
- Thread starter vrizi
- Start date
What does your process look like? Are you annealing? Using a bushing or mandrel die? Powder thrower?
Is the oddball shot the first or the last shot of the string?
Is the oddball shot the first or the last shot of the string?
Fyi,....my reloading process is as follows
Deprime brass, tumble brass, blow out media with compressed air,, anneal, fl size forester die (expander removed), expand neck (Sinclair expander), turn neck, trim to length, clean any burs on the edges after trimming, uniform clean primer pocket, I dip in lacquer thinner to clean out any shavings or lube, dry, resize again, to make sure the neck is good after turning, expand again, (these last 2 there is no resistance in the press, I just do this for my own piece of mind so I know the neck is still good). Now I prime, powder, (I measure every charge on a beam scale) and seat bullet (forester micrometer seating die).
Deprime brass, tumble brass, blow out media with compressed air,, anneal, fl size forester die (expander removed), expand neck (Sinclair expander), turn neck, trim to length, clean any burs on the edges after trimming, uniform clean primer pocket, I dip in lacquer thinner to clean out any shavings or lube, dry, resize again, to make sure the neck is good after turning, expand again, (these last 2 there is no resistance in the press, I just do this for my own piece of mind so I know the neck is still good). Now I prime, powder, (I measure every charge on a beam scale) and seat bullet (forester micrometer seating die).
Have you tried tuning seating depth at all yet? I have seen seating depth cause “fliers” before so that may be a possibility. If you aren’t annealing you could be experiencing inconsistent neck tension as well.
Disregard the annealing theory, I wrote this and posted right as you posted your process
Disregard the annealing theory, I wrote this and posted right as you posted your process
My understanding was the es comes from combustion, and groups will come from seating depth,......just what I have been told. I will be working on seating depth to get my group tighter, but did not expect it to fix the es.
The last string I shot, the outlier was the 3rd shot in the sting of 5
The last string I shot, the outlier was the 3rd shot in the sting of 5
Because he's resizing twice - once after anealing, then once again after neck turning. Which would seem to imply it's virgin brass (or it was).
I'm with Oregun, if it's not the double sizing thing you're doing, it's your ignition. Either powder drop or primer choice.
Once fired brass,....unless my ribs beam scale is bad,...the charge weights should be dead on,.....at this point I am not discounting the scale being bad. There is little to no resistance, because this is the 2nd time I am doing it. It is moving the neck back in slightly, and then expanding slightly, hardly enough to feel it in the press like you would in the first resizing of the brass.
I have been using a Caldwell G3 and been getting strange results lately. It seems very sensitive at times. Not saying this is the problem, but it may be. Have you tried shooting at any distance yet to see how the groups hold up? If it groups tight at 100,200,300, etc, than I would not stress over that 1 "flyer" fps.
I could probably eliminate some of my process like the resizing twice, as well as turning the neck on the once fired brass. I started with vigil brass, and that was my process, the reason for the 2nd sizing was I wanted to make sure that the neck did not expand any during the turni g process. When I did this process to the once fired brass, nothing came off of the neck in the turning process. I imagine I could eliminate this in future loading of once fired brass, but would continue to do it for new brass. I mainly did it for consistency of my process
Still developing the load so I have not shot at distance yet, all of my testing has been at 100.
My groups are around 1in. Not where they need to be yet, but I have not done any tuning with the seating depth yet. I was trying to get my charge right, and then work on seating depth to improve my group. That will be my next step, but I was totally frustrated with my es
My groups are around 1in. Not where they need to be yet, but I have not done any tuning with the seating depth yet. I was trying to get my charge right, and then work on seating depth to improve my group. That will be my next step, but I was totally frustrated with my es
You say that was your best load, do you mean by the ES? When you did your development were there other charge weights close to the 41.5? I would either run another charge weight test, or just play with depth until groups tighten up and then test at the furthest distance you will be shooting. Sometimes we have a great load that we throw out because of an anomaly that really shows no physical effect.
Yes that was my best es for the day. On a previous day that same load gave me an es of 13. The initial development was done in increments of .3. Then when the node was found I shot in increments of .1. On three separate days, that charge weight has been the best es. At this point I will continue to develop at that weight, and tune the seating depth. Just frustrated that I am not getting single digit es
Please correct me if I am thinking wrong, but I am trying to develop the most accurate load that I can for that rifle. It is my understanding that in order to do so, your combustion determines your es. Once you have your es down, you can fine tune your group by tuning with seating depth. I would like to see a consistent single digit es to ensure consistent long range accuracy.
Single digit es. Good luck and get to measuring and being really freaking picky.
........would love to hear how that will make his velocity ES better.
Instead of worrying about "numbers", how about testing your loads at 300yds?
1: 30 es is plenty fine
2: ditch the shitty chrono
3: stop messing with primer pockets
4: use mandrel to set neck ID
5: brush necks and/or lube for consistent seating friction
6: get arbor press with force or psi gauge
The key to sub 25es is extreme consistency across the board with brass prep and powder charge weight.
If you don’t have multiple QC checks (pin gauge, force gauge, etc etc), you will never know if you have done things as close to the same every time.
2: ditch the shitty chrono
3: stop messing with primer pockets
4: use mandrel to set neck ID
5: brush necks and/or lube for consistent seating friction
6: get arbor press with force or psi gauge
The key to sub 25es is extreme consistency across the board with brass prep and powder charge weight.
If you don’t have multiple QC checks (pin gauge, force gauge, etc etc), you will never know if you have done things as close to the same every time.
300 tells you nothing about velocity/es.
That doesn’t matter until well after. You can make anything shoot good groups at short ranges.
And chrono numbers at muzzle literally tell you what the dispersion will be at distance (as far as velocity related dispersion).
That doesn’t matter until well after. You can make anything shoot good groups at short ranges.
And chrono numbers at muzzle literally tell you what the dispersion will be at distance (as far as velocity related dispersion).
For example, his velocities posted, with 2758 being the lowest and 2790 being the highest, all things equal, the that will be an 8”(more or less) vertical dispersion at 1k yds.
Of course things like shooter ability (you can actually accidentally shoot a smaller group because of bad habits when you get lucky for that session), lighting, and other such things play a part. Then there’s any positive compensation (purposely or incidental) that comes into play.
But, the math is the math. We are bound by physics.
If your group is smaller than what’s mathematically possible via MV, it’s due to:
Bullet BC variances
Shooter error
Positive compensation
Environment (lighting, mirage, etc)
All of which make “testing at distance” a shit show at times.
Loads don’t magically shoot better or worse at distance. The theory of “just see what it does on paper” is flawed as people are not objectively looking at why it group well or poorly. Just attaching an emotional reasoning to the group.
Of course things like shooter ability (you can actually accidentally shoot a smaller group because of bad habits when you get lucky for that session), lighting, and other such things play a part. Then there’s any positive compensation (purposely or incidental) that comes into play.
But, the math is the math. We are bound by physics.
If your group is smaller than what’s mathematically possible via MV, it’s due to:
Bullet BC variances
Shooter error
Positive compensation
Environment (lighting, mirage, etc)
All of which make “testing at distance” a shit show at times.
Loads don’t magically shoot better or worse at distance. The theory of “just see what it does on paper” is flawed as people are not objectively looking at why it group well or poorly. Just attaching an emotional reasoning to the group.
Perhaps what I was implying didn't come out too clear. It seems most novice LR shooters get wrapped up over SD/ES as to the reason why they won't be able to even try 1K. However, as you pointed out the ES can attribute 8" of dispersion which is still less than 1MOA. I mention 300yds to test the loads based on experience in HP and F-class that it is the distance where the "1/2MOA 100yd shooter" starts to see their flaws in technique affect groups. I will agree that this does create the distance testing "shit show" as you say, where the shooter suspects their load/equipment is possibly to blame but can't be sure what's really the culprit. Perhaps HP and F-class have fooled me with the 44" bull at 1K where I will see a novice shooter that is 1MOA capable and "disabled" by an extra 8" of dispersion can still keep their rounds within a twenty-inch circle and be doing OK.
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Correct me if I’m wrong, but changing seating depths does change pressure. Btw, everyone would love single digit es’s. I did it once with a two shot group.
If I loved it, I would work for it. I am plenty happy to spend less time a the bench and keep my ES in 30fps range.
Seating depth is a way effect group size after you have found your charge weight. Whether that effects pressure very little is immaterial.
Seating depth is a way effect group size after you have found your charge weight. Whether that effects pressure very little is immaterial.
I am not a competitive shooter, and don't really have a desire to be. I do however want to be the best that I and my equipment can be, and will always strive to be better. I am not a novice shooter, but am somewhat new to long range., and I have been reloading since the late 80's. My goal for this particular round, is to be able to have a repeatable impact on target at 1 mile, so I am trying to be as meticulous as I can in my development, and be sure that the round that I produce is as consistent as possible. I am quite sure that there are things that I can do better or different to achieve this and there has been some good information in this thread. I will continue to learn, and revise my process, and will get my es down to an acceptable range to achieve my goals. I will continue to update as my loads are tested.Perhaps what I was implying didn't come out too clear. It seems most novice LR shooters get wrapped up over SD/ES as to the reason why they won't be able to even try 1K. However, as you pointed out the ES can attribute 8" of dispersion which is still less than 1MOA. I mention 300yds to test the loads based on experience in HP and F-class that it is the distance where the "1/2MOA 100yd shooter" starts to see their flaws in technique affect groups. I will agree that this does create the distance testing "shit show" as you say, where the shooter suspects their load/equipment is possibly to blame but can't be sure what's really the culprit. Perhaps HP and F-class have fooled me with the 44" bull at 1K where I will see a novice shooter that is 1MOA capable and "disabled" by an extra 8" of dispersion can still keep their rounds within a twenty-inch circle and be doing OK.
Not that you are pissing up a rope but youre going to be lucky to be "consistent" at 1 mile with a 6.5 creed. Though I guess consistent is a term with its own interpretations.
Id say you need to work on your weather reading more than your ammo if youre at 30es already. Ive gotten 3 hits in a row one time at that distance. And there were about 15 shots before and 15 after that I either had no idea where they were going or I was surprised how far off they actually were when I could spot a miss.
A bigger rifle with more mass and momentum is the answer to consistency at distance.
I completely agree that there are much better rounds suited to that distance, however, this was a challenge to myself and a goal that I hope to achieve this year. I am well aware that there are a great many environmental factors that will play into the flight of this bullet. With my current velocities, I can expect a variance of 43 inches of vertical at that distance, with no environmental factors, which we know is not the case. I need to get those numbers much better, before I proceed. I can agree that the environmental factors can play are larger effect on being on target or not, but if your starting with a bullet that has close to a 4ft variance it becomes very difficult to know if you missed because of bad dope, shooter error, or bullet error. My goal at this point is to take as much of the bullet variable out of the equation as possible before moving on.
With a es of velocities between 2790, and 2782. An es of 8, my vertical variance moves from 43 inches, to 11 inches. This is much more acceptable to me If I were to shoot 1/2 moa, and all things perfect, this would still give me a about a 19 inch group at that distance, before figuring in environmental factors.
You’re going to need to be much more OCD about your loading to get a consistent single digit ES.
Also, the only way to take the velocity and bullet out of the equation is:
Trim/tip/uniform your bullets
Run a chrono for every shot you take
Uniforming bullets will keep your bullet to bullet BC variation minimal.
Running a chrono at all times let’s you know if that was the reason you missed. This is why David Tubb runs a semi permanently attached magneto at all times.
Trim/tip/uniform your bullets
Run a chrono for every shot you take
Uniforming bullets will keep your bullet to bullet BC variation minimal.
Running a chrono at all times let’s you know if that was the reason you missed. This is why David Tubb runs a semi permanently attached magneto at all times.
The reason your ES is so high is cuz you’re overprepping your brass. Your brass hates you.
Lookit: size the cases, lube the inside of the necks with imperial graphite dry lube (your necks are too dry after the lacquer thinner), and play with the powder charge vs coal until you land in the middle of your true accuracy node. This will involve you charting powder charge vs coal.
Once you’re in the middle of your node, check the ES. It’s gonna be like 10 or so.
Lookit: size the cases, lube the inside of the necks with imperial graphite dry lube (your necks are too dry after the lacquer thinner), and play with the powder charge vs coal until you land in the middle of your true accuracy node. This will involve you charting powder charge vs coal.
Once you’re in the middle of your node, check the ES. It’s gonna be like 10 or so.
Allow me to get on a soapbox for 1 minute of everyone's time. There's a lot of benefits from shooting competitions, whether PRS, F-class, King of the Mile, etc. You are among some talented, like-minded shooters who have already figured out what works and are mostly willing to share knowledge and tips. Kind of like attending a $500 Long-range class for the price of match fees...Ok, not really as good, but you will get a certain value from the experience.
I do completely agree with you,.....some of those competions will have great shooters with a wealth of knowledge, that they are willing to openly share, and a lot can be gleaned from being apart of it. My statement was not intended to downplay the value of a competition, only to state that my motivation is not to compete, or compare myself to others, but only to achieve my own personal goals.
+1 in regards to the Imperial dry lube in the necks. Also, consider flipping your annealing and tumbling order. It has appeared to me that annealing (flame annealing anyway)
creates a slight degree of roughness on the brass surface and tumbling helps remove that.
creates a slight degree of roughness on the brass surface and tumbling helps remove that.
I always think of reducing ES/SD numbers as chasing the lowest variations in each step. Like stacking tolerances each step has its own ES/SD. All together equal youre precision in reloading. Some more important than others. Knowing these variences can help. In no particular order.
-Powder measure +/- .05gn
-headspace +/- .001"
-Neck +/-.0005" inner dimension
-seating depth +/-.001"
-Seating pressure?
-Annealing?
-Bullet weight?
-Concenteicity?
-case volume?
-sure theres more.
My ES hovers around high single digits low doubles. For the record I only look at a few of those above. Ive never sorted bullets or turned necks. I did recently pick up some pin guages and found that my mandrel didnt always size the inside of the case the same on each one. I tightened the ES on necks and my numbers dropped significantly.
-Powder measure +/- .05gn
-headspace +/- .001"
-Neck +/-.0005" inner dimension
-seating depth +/-.001"
-Seating pressure?
-Annealing?
-Bullet weight?
-Concenteicity?
-case volume?
-sure theres more.
My ES hovers around high single digits low doubles. For the record I only look at a few of those above. Ive never sorted bullets or turned necks. I did recently pick up some pin guages and found that my mandrel didnt always size the inside of the case the same on each one. I tightened the ES on necks and my numbers dropped significantly.
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