Send it level vs vestibular sense

[Dthomas3523]

So, for kicks I ordered one of those new send it mv3 levels and mounted it to my spuhr. I then calibrated it with a level crosshair (using vertical and horizontal lines made with a 4ft level). I wanted to see how my vestibular sense compared to what should be the most accurate consumer grade rifle mounted level.

The mv3 has 5 settings:

1 deg
.8 deg
.6 deg
.4 deg
.2 deg

This is the amount of error you have to be inside for the green light. I experimented inside against wall (no horizon or any targets or anything to reference) we well as dry and live fire on targets at distance.

I would cover the level and get setup where the crosshairs “felt” level. I would then uncover the level and see where the lights were.

Thus far these are my results:

1 deg = 100%
.8 deg = 100%
.6 deg = ~ 80-90%

Once I got to the .4 and .2 settings things became much more picky. I will need to continue testing to see if I can use the mv3 to train myself to notice .2-.4 deg of error in my setup.

Currently, I am confident I can easily set up with less than .8 deg of cant error without the use of a level.

I will post more data and some videos as I continue to mess with the level.

 

[jcmullis2]

Do your thing

 

[Lowlight]

Training tool, vs a shooting aid...

a shooting aid offers nothing to shooter but a shortcut that must be maintained, remove the aid, nothing is gained.

a training tool teaches the shooter a new or improved skill set that translates beyond the tool.

 

[jcmullis2]

Kinda like Wax on, wax off Daniel san
You make sense with what your saying. I wonder how many of my fliers were caused by a little cant on my rifle

 

[zenbike]

As a point of comparison, It would be interesting to see the same tests done in a shooting environment, where you do have a horizon, target stands, berms, etc... that may give false cues to your senses. It will be interesting to see if the vestibular sense holds up when you’re not looking at a blank white wall.

 

[hereinaz]

Any new reports?

Have you ever expermented in awkward body positions?

I'd be curious your results if you ever get sick, something like flu, a sinus or ear infection.

I have a digital level. I am curious enough to test it myself and try to train myself better.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Any new reports?

Have you ever expermented in awkward body positions?

I'd be curious your results if you ever get sick, something like flu, a sinus or ear infection.

I have a digital level. I am curious enough to test it myself and try to train myself better.

I’ve used it in most positions you’ll find yourself in. No change.

Haven’t tried it while sick, but if you’re well enough to walk without issue, you should theoretically have enough vestibular sense to do other things. Obviously everyone is different.

It’s very rare you hear someone say “man, once I put a level on my rifle, my scores improved drastically.” And there’s a reason. For practical purposes, a level isn’t that big of a gamechanger *for most people.*

 

[Olen_4504]

Shot a National two day match a couple weekends ago. 3 buddies were all shooting the fancy new send it levels.
Atleast once or twice each day they came off the stage and said “man i dropped a shot - my rifle was canted!”
I was giving them such an hard time for having these fancy flashing lights and still shooting canted.
I’m sure they just need more practice with It, but it was funny giving them hell.
My little bubble level in my spuhr Mount works for me. The lights are too distracting for me personally.
Good test!
I’d also be curious how you’re results would be on an uneven range with targets and t posts that aren’t level

 

[Dthomas3523]

I never use targets or T posts to reference a level reticle. That’s one way to absolutely have a canted rifle.

 

[Precision Underground]

I would say in real world environments there’s always plenty of feel/reference to not need a level, assuming you have shot enough to have a good handle on what the sight pic should look like. Sure if you are shooting ELR and have the time go ahead and use the level. But in PRS or any scenario where time is precious my guess would be you’ll drop way more shots due to the time or distraction it takes to look at a level than you would from being canted.

 

[hereinaz]

Re: health, Frank used a shooter with a mild ear infection, if I recall, and she was walking around.

I guess I need to keep training the brain, cause I almost always cant. Its quite frequently the same direction for me and fairly consistent.

Thanks for the info, just trying to get the contours of what to expect.

 

[Precision Underground]

Re: health, Frank used a shooter with a mild ear infection, if I recall, and she was walking around.

I guess I need to keep training the brain, cause I almost always cant. Its quite frequently the same direction for me and fairly consistent.

Thanks for the info, just trying to get the contours of what to expect.

Sounds like you need to adjust your set up. This is why I tell guys to stop leveling their reticle to their rifle. They will spend money and hours trying to get their rifle and reticle on the exact same plane and then they’ll shoot canted all day because it’s not comfortable to shoot with a perfectly level rifle. Level your reticle to you. If you are canting consistently just loosen your scope, get set up comfortably, then level your reticle to that. My rifles are typically canted a good bit toward my head but the reticle is level when I shoot. Draw a vertical line on a wall or use a house in the distance and work with it until “comfortable” leaves you plumb with the vertical reference then snug the rings.

 

[hereinaz]

Sounds like you need to adjust your set up. This is why I tell guys to stop leveling their reticle to their rifle. They will spend money and hours trying to get their rifle and reticle on the exact same plane and then they’ll shoot canted all day because it’s not comfortable to shoot with a perfectly level rifle. Level your reticle to you. If you are canting consistently just loosen your scope, get set up comfortably, then level your reticle to that. My rifles are typically canted a good bit toward my head but the reticle is level when I shoot. Draw a vertical line on a wall or use a house in the distance and work with it until “comfortable” leaves you plumb with the vertical reference then snug the rings.

Truth to that, and a good point. I pushed it aroundworse when it was all leveled up to the rifleand I was fighting "comfort". So, I only level the scope and fit myself and rifle to that at this point.

I level my reticle with a level ring in a fixture, got behind the rifle naturally and dropped it in the rings and leveled it. I definitely got consistency and better, but if I look through a scope anywhere, even on my heavy metal table with pic rail bolted, it is always tilted when I think it is level. That is fairly consistent now.

When the situation is hard or I am second guessing is when I could go either way.

I think it is just training my brain to realize what level looks like. Calibrate what my eyes see as level when my balance is level.

It seems to be that what I "see" as level just isn't. Whether into the air or on blank.

Curious about others experiences to understand it.

All good stuff.

 

[Glassaholic]

Now that you’ve had this setup for a few months Dt, curious if this “training aid” has helped anymore or did you scrap it? Ever since I saw Thomas Haugland’s video on vestibular sense vs bubbles some years ago I’ve been trying to teach myself how to come back to level naturally. I try to adjust my scope to my natural hold and level accordingly.