Hi everyone, want to here what's your favorite shooting coat. I have not put one on in years and want to buy one soon. I am 6'1" at around 180 lbs so I am tall and thin. Not worried about cost of the jacket but I do want one that will last. I was lookin at the creedmore , what do you think ?
F T/R Competition Shooting jacket
- Thread starter Ammo dog 2311
- Start date
Re: Shooting jacket
One of the great thing about F-class over sling shooting when it is 80° or higher is you do not have to put the heavy coat and sweat while shooting.
Wear whatever is comfortable for the conditions.
wade
One of the great thing about F-class over sling shooting when it is 80° or higher is you do not have to put the heavy coat and sweat while shooting.
Wear whatever is comfortable for the conditions.
wade
Re: Shooting jacket
Yeah, if you are shooting F class, there is absolutely no reason to use a coat. The rests/bipod/etc are doing that job for ya! Now, if you are doing things the hard way and slinging up, get a Creedmoor.
Yeah, if you are shooting F class, there is absolutely no reason to use a coat. The rests/bipod/etc are doing that job for ya! Now, if you are doing things the hard way and slinging up, get a Creedmoor.
Re: Shooting jacket
Thanks guys did not know that. I really don't want to put one on. They are very uncomfortable.
Thanks guys did not know that. I really don't want to put one on. They are very uncomfortable.
Re: Shooting jacket
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ammo dog 2311</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I really don't want to put one on. They are very uncomfortable. </div></div>
If the shooting coat you are in is uncomfortable, you are either using it wrong or its the wrong size.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ammo dog 2311</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I really don't want to put one on. They are very uncomfortable. </div></div>
If the shooting coat you are in is uncomfortable, you are either using it wrong or its the wrong size.
Re: Shooting jacket
Felt like a streigh jacket. We were taught to pull the straps very tight for the offhand and it.worked. These were standard issue jacket , issued to the shooting teams for comps. It really helped us shoot better.
Felt like a streigh jacket. We were taught to pull the straps very tight for the offhand and it.worked. These were standard issue jacket , issued to the shooting teams for comps. It really helped us shoot better.
Re: Shooting jacket
+1 for the Creedmoor, but unless you have to shoot standing or with a sling, you don't really need one. However, I think all riflemen should learn how to shoot with a jacket and sling so you can really appreciate not having to.
+1 for the Creedmoor, but unless you have to shoot standing or with a sling, you don't really need one. However, I think all riflemen should learn how to shoot with a jacket and sling so you can really appreciate not having to.
Re: Shooting jacket
very good point, and I totally agree, all shooters should try to shoot off a sling wraped up like a burrito to really enjoy the freedom of movement and comfort of Fclass.
very good point, and I totally agree, all shooters should try to shoot off a sling wraped up like a burrito to really enjoy the freedom of movement and comfort of Fclass.
Re: Shooting jacket
Ditto on that. Ever put on a dress blue uniform and try to eat ? It does make you feel a little special being dressed up for the range in your high speed low drag streight jacket.
Ditto on that. Ever put on a dress blue uniform and try to eat ? It does make you feel a little special being dressed up for the range in your high speed low drag streight jacket.
Re: Shooting jacket
I often use a shooting coat for F TR Shooting.
I dont buckle up but use it for additional padding between me and ground. Hopefully to eliminate some body movement from breathing, especially in arm area, plus it gives me additional LOP
I often use a shooting coat for F TR Shooting.
I dont buckle up but use it for additional padding between me and ground. Hopefully to eliminate some body movement from breathing, especially in arm area, plus it gives me additional LOP
Re: Shooting jacket
Wich jacket do you prefer and why. There were quite a few options you can choose from when I was on the creedmore web site. Not sure witch options are worth the upgrade. Thanks
Wich jacket do you prefer and why. There were quite a few options you can choose from when I was on the creedmore web site. Not sure witch options are worth the upgrade. Thanks
Re: Shooting jacket
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tactical</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I often use a shooting coat for F TR Shooting.
I dont buckle up but use it for additional padding between me and ground. Hopefully to eliminate some body movement from breathing, especially in arm area, plus it gives me additional LOP </div></div>
Same here. It does make a difference. I have a "Hard Back" Creedmore" from my Highpower days and used it several times before loaning it out to a young Highpower shooter that is now a young Marine!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tactical</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I often use a shooting coat for F TR Shooting.
I dont buckle up but use it for additional padding between me and ground. Hopefully to eliminate some body movement from breathing, especially in arm area, plus it gives me additional LOP </div></div>
Same here. It does make a difference. I have a "Hard Back" Creedmore" from my Highpower days and used it several times before loaning it out to a young Highpower shooter that is now a young Marine!
Re: Shooting jacket
I know there are a few guys who wear coats or cut down jackets for F class. I've also watched sling shooters get up from the line with heat stress/stroke symptoms after shooting a match in 90 degree heat. I'll stick with my light weight fishing shirts.
I could see a recoil pad to help insulate the rifle from body movements, particularly heart beat.
I know there are a few guys who wear coats or cut down jackets for F class. I've also watched sling shooters get up from the line with heat stress/stroke symptoms after shooting a match in 90 degree heat. I'll stick with my light weight fishing shirts.
I could see a recoil pad to help insulate the rifle from body movements, particularly heart beat.
Re: Shooting jacket
Might want to look at the CMP SALES .... ESTORE... they have some shooting jackets for about $75.00..
I just happen to see them when placing an order the other day.
Matt.
Might want to look at the CMP SALES .... ESTORE... they have some shooting jackets for about $75.00..
I just happen to see them when placing an order the other day.
Matt.
Re: Shooting jacket
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: attherange</div><div class="ubbcode-body">very good point, and I totally agree, all shooters should try to shoot off a sling wraped up like a burrito to really enjoy the freedom of movement and comfort of Fclass. </div></div>
exactly why a lot of folks wont, or cant, shoot sling/irons. Its far from easy. F class, on the otherhand, was started to be easier to do. Yeah, you still gotta play in the wind and hold good elevation, but you aint gotta do the really hard stuff. I certainly see the draw of F class, but to me, its only part of the challenge. Basically 2 of the 3 axis' arent there. For new folks, its a great way to get started. My 10 yr old is shooting F class now, and doing well. But he is chompin at the bit to get on a sling with irons. Fortunately for him, we have some really good F class shooters at Butner and they have been helping him, and me, get up to speed. He is having a blast. My goal is to get him playing well in the wind over the next year or so, and then get him slung up like a burrito!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: attherange</div><div class="ubbcode-body">very good point, and I totally agree, all shooters should try to shoot off a sling wraped up like a burrito to really enjoy the freedom of movement and comfort of Fclass. </div></div>
exactly why a lot of folks wont, or cant, shoot sling/irons. Its far from easy. F class, on the otherhand, was started to be easier to do. Yeah, you still gotta play in the wind and hold good elevation, but you aint gotta do the really hard stuff. I certainly see the draw of F class, but to me, its only part of the challenge. Basically 2 of the 3 axis' arent there. For new folks, its a great way to get started. My 10 yr old is shooting F class now, and doing well. But he is chompin at the bit to get on a sling with irons. Fortunately for him, we have some really good F class shooters at Butner and they have been helping him, and me, get up to speed. He is having a blast. My goal is to get him playing well in the wind over the next year or so, and then get him slung up like a burrito!
Re: Shooting jacket
I picked up a Creedmore jacket, but it's just for playing Service Rifle games once in a while.
Slings and Irons are as interesting to me as Bullseye with a 45, never did it; never will. I did shoot USPSA/IPSC back in the 80s.
If I ever shoot irons other than service rifle at 600yds or less it will be Creedmore/BPCR stuff, otherwise it just holds no appeal for me. (I admit that tossing a 45-70 punkin' a long way seems like a challenge I may take on)
There are plenty of guys here who sling up, in fact more than the F class crowd of 4 or so that regularly show up, though I'm about to make up flyers to put out in the gun stores to try to drum up some more F-TR shooters.
I picked up a Creedmore jacket, but it's just for playing Service Rifle games once in a while.
Slings and Irons are as interesting to me as Bullseye with a 45, never did it; never will. I did shoot USPSA/IPSC back in the 80s.
If I ever shoot irons other than service rifle at 600yds or less it will be Creedmore/BPCR stuff, otherwise it just holds no appeal for me. (I admit that tossing a 45-70 punkin' a long way seems like a challenge I may take on)
There are plenty of guys here who sling up, in fact more than the F class crowd of 4 or so that regularly show up, though I'm about to make up flyers to put out in the gun stores to try to drum up some more F-TR shooters.
Re: Shooting jacket
Mudcat-NC F class said:
Re: Shooting jacket
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DGosnell</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DGosnell</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Mudcat-NC F class said:
Re: Shooting jacket
Great info guys, is the ISU jacket as well made as the creedmoor ? Any tips on the size to order ? Buying a jacket without puttin it on is scaring me. Do you go by your suit jacket size ? What about the color of the jacket does one color attract more sun then another ? Thanks
Great info guys, is the ISU jacket as well made as the creedmoor ? Any tips on the size to order ? Buying a jacket without puttin it on is scaring me. Do you go by your suit jacket size ? What about the color of the jacket does one color attract more sun then another ? Thanks
Re: Shooting jacket
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ammo dog 2311</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> What about the color of the jacket does one color attract more sun then another ? Thanks </div></div>
Black Leather?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ammo dog 2311</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> What about the color of the jacket does one color attract more sun then another ? Thanks </div></div>
Black Leather?
Re: Shooting jacket
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DGosnell</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DGosnell</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Mudcat-NC F class said:
Re: Shooting jacket
While I agree that a shooting jacket is not mandatory for F Class, I do beleve it can make the experience more comfortable for any prone shooting discipline.
My jacket is a G.P. Maes USMC style cotten jacket. The cotton does not retain heat so much, and can even be dampened down with a spray bottle to serve as a kind of primitive air conditioning.
For F Class, the padded elbows can alleviate the effects of hard/sharp ground cover, and I dislike recoil more than most so the shoulder pad has some real benefit for me. Mostly though, the heavier rifles and more diminutive chamberings provide the real relief.
These days, my F Class shooting involves the FV250 discipline amd the .223 and .30BR are beginning to show some promise for me.
Greg
While I agree that a shooting jacket is not mandatory for F Class, I do beleve it can make the experience more comfortable for any prone shooting discipline.
My jacket is a G.P. Maes USMC style cotten jacket. The cotton does not retain heat so much, and can even be dampened down with a spray bottle to serve as a kind of primitive air conditioning.
For F Class, the padded elbows can alleviate the effects of hard/sharp ground cover, and I dislike recoil more than most so the shoulder pad has some real benefit for me. Mostly though, the heavier rifles and more diminutive chamberings provide the real relief.
These days, my F Class shooting involves the FV250 discipline amd the .223 and .30BR are beginning to show some promise for me.
Greg
Re: Shooting jacket
XTR My personal opinion is that sling shooting is harder to do said:Ok, first, let me make sure I am clear here. I am NOT saying F class is easy. On the contrary, you have to be able to play in the wind or you WILL get your clock cleaned. Same with having the ability to hold good groups/elevation. Go out there with crappy equipment or no skill, or be the type tha thinks if the crosshair is on the X, thats where it goes regardless of how one pulls the trigger, etc, you will get into trouble fast. But, my point is that with sling/irons, you have all the difficulty of F class PLUS having to hold the rifle and use irons! The level of difficulty is increased 10 fold.
Now, lets talk about the target for a second...on second thought, why talk about the target, its irrelevant! We aint comparing scores from F vs sling. (if you did you wouldnt be happy with what you found) You can make the target any dimension you want, if you are in a different category, its meaningless. ALl that matters is that those in the same category shoot on the same target. ANd it makes total sense to make that target smaller for F class for the reasons I pointed about above. Heck, if you shoot on the sling target, guys like Jeff R and Jim C, both who post here, would be shooting X cleans and having shoot offs to see who shoots the first 10! Thats why the target was changed in the first place, to spread the scores out. If you had sling shooters running 200-20s all the time, it would happen with that target. But, alas, while cleans are somewhat common, X cleans are definitely not. Again, back to the idea that when you are holding the rifle with your body, rather than a static rest, movement is inevitable and we all know just how little movement it takes to toss a shot out into neverland.
But, I am sure someone is going to argue with me and tell me how F class is more difficult than sling/irons, etc. Why folks feel the need to do that, I dont know. I like the idea of both disciplines and really love the idea that they can be shot together, at the same time, on the same range as it allows me to shoot with not only my 10 yr old son, but also all of my buds that prefer F over sling, which is fine by me, as long as we get to keep shooting together....which is the whole dang point anyhow.
John
Re: Shooting jacket
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XTR</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DGosnell</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mudcat-NC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> F class, on the otherhand, was started to be easier to do. Yeah, you still gotta play in the wind and hold good elevation, but you aint gotta do the really hard stuff. </div></div>
I disagree.</div></div>
My personal opinion is that sling shooting is harder to do, but the target is more forgiving. Even a beginner can shoot clean on a HP target with a scope, pod ,and rear bag; however, to date there has never been a clean score in F-TR at 1000.
Is it easier to get on paper in F class, no doubt yes, but it's a hell of a lot harder to shoot Expert and damned near impossible to shoot Master shooting F-TR, in the mean time i shoot with at least a couple of High Master sling shooters.
And, that's why F class is classified separately, it's different.
</div></div>
Let's not forget the origins of F-class. George Farquharson (the eponymous "F" in F-class,) was an old Canadian Fullbore shooter whose eyesight had faded over the years and he also found that holding a rifle for the duration of the match was too much at his advancing age. He pionnered F-class and for a while, the F-classers shot on the same targets as all the others. In that respect Mudcat is essentially correct. However when the NRA sanctioned the discipline in 2007, they also brought in new targets, with scoring rings at one quarter the size of the regular targets. That changed the game dramatically.
Having two versions of F-class was probably the wisest decision ever taken (ok, maybe not "ever" but it was a good one) so that we have essentially two different disciplines using the same targets and they are able to compete alongside each other. I frequently have to squad F-T/R shooters with F-Open shooters on the same target and it works fine because it is the same target.
Lots of people think of F-Open as an armament race, and I suspect that at the very top end that is somewhat true but I also know of the dedication and the care these top shooters give to preparation of the ammo and their equipment. I also know the level of marksmanship and the situational awareness these people display at matches. But it is undeniable that F-Open rifles and especially calibers bring in an extra edge in accuracy.
I shoot F-T/R exclusively and my equipment has evolved over the years, as have my scores and perhaps even my marksmanship level. I shot fullbore all the way back in the early 1980s and then Service Rifle and then fell into F-T/R. I will agree with XTR that shooting Expert in F-T/R is hard. At Long Range, I mean. I hold an Expert LR classification which I obtained shooting at 1000 yards exclusively, because that's virtually the only F-class LR we shoot at our club. Mid-range is a lot easier, (I have HM there,) it just seems that things happen to a .308 bullet after 800 yards and I don't think a jacket will make one iota of difference. In fact, I find that I shoot best when I am physically as comfortable as I can be and in Houston, summers are brutal and the last thing I want is to add an extra layer of clothes or two. I do use elbow protectors that I bought at Academy.
I'm always looking to simplify my shooting setup and to minimize my moving around during a string. A few months ago, I shot an MR match with my F-class AR and I was able to retain my cheekweld for an entire string. The scorer wrote the scores, the rifle opened the bolt and ejected the brass. All I had to do was load a cartridge in the port and push the bolt release in the trigger guard. My puller was fast and as soon as the target came up, the shot was gone. The conditions were fine and I had fun.
My bolt .308 requires me to break position for every shot and I have to rebuild it every time, almost (but not quite) like in Service Rifle. I am trying to minimize this as much as possible. That's what I think is a better focus of efforts, at least for me.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XTR</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DGosnell</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mudcat-NC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> F class, on the otherhand, was started to be easier to do. Yeah, you still gotta play in the wind and hold good elevation, but you aint gotta do the really hard stuff. </div></div>
I disagree.</div></div>
My personal opinion is that sling shooting is harder to do, but the target is more forgiving. Even a beginner can shoot clean on a HP target with a scope, pod ,and rear bag; however, to date there has never been a clean score in F-TR at 1000.
Is it easier to get on paper in F class, no doubt yes, but it's a hell of a lot harder to shoot Expert and damned near impossible to shoot Master shooting F-TR, in the mean time i shoot with at least a couple of High Master sling shooters.
And, that's why F class is classified separately, it's different.
</div></div>
Let's not forget the origins of F-class. George Farquharson (the eponymous "F" in F-class,) was an old Canadian Fullbore shooter whose eyesight had faded over the years and he also found that holding a rifle for the duration of the match was too much at his advancing age. He pionnered F-class and for a while, the F-classers shot on the same targets as all the others. In that respect Mudcat is essentially correct. However when the NRA sanctioned the discipline in 2007, they also brought in new targets, with scoring rings at one quarter the size of the regular targets. That changed the game dramatically.
Having two versions of F-class was probably the wisest decision ever taken (ok, maybe not "ever" but it was a good one) so that we have essentially two different disciplines using the same targets and they are able to compete alongside each other. I frequently have to squad F-T/R shooters with F-Open shooters on the same target and it works fine because it is the same target.
Lots of people think of F-Open as an armament race, and I suspect that at the very top end that is somewhat true but I also know of the dedication and the care these top shooters give to preparation of the ammo and their equipment. I also know the level of marksmanship and the situational awareness these people display at matches. But it is undeniable that F-Open rifles and especially calibers bring in an extra edge in accuracy.
I shoot F-T/R exclusively and my equipment has evolved over the years, as have my scores and perhaps even my marksmanship level. I shot fullbore all the way back in the early 1980s and then Service Rifle and then fell into F-T/R. I will agree with XTR that shooting Expert in F-T/R is hard. At Long Range, I mean. I hold an Expert LR classification which I obtained shooting at 1000 yards exclusively, because that's virtually the only F-class LR we shoot at our club. Mid-range is a lot easier, (I have HM there,) it just seems that things happen to a .308 bullet after 800 yards and I don't think a jacket will make one iota of difference. In fact, I find that I shoot best when I am physically as comfortable as I can be and in Houston, summers are brutal and the last thing I want is to add an extra layer of clothes or two. I do use elbow protectors that I bought at Academy.
I'm always looking to simplify my shooting setup and to minimize my moving around during a string. A few months ago, I shot an MR match with my F-class AR and I was able to retain my cheekweld for an entire string. The scorer wrote the scores, the rifle opened the bolt and ejected the brass. All I had to do was load a cartridge in the port and push the bolt release in the trigger guard. My puller was fast and as soon as the target came up, the shot was gone. The conditions were fine and I had fun.
My bolt .308 requires me to break position for every shot and I have to rebuild it every time, almost (but not quite) like in Service Rifle. I am trying to minimize this as much as possible. That's what I think is a better focus of efforts, at least for me.
Re: Shooting jacket
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XTR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I picked up a Creedmore jacket, but it's just for playing Service Rifle games once in a while.
Slings and Irons are as interesting to me as Bullseye with a 45, never did it; never will. I did shoot USPSA/IPSC back in the 80s.
</div></div>
Just typical, "never tired it and never will" but your on the internet talking about it. You have so much to say about stuff you've never tried, sounds like a crybaby to me.
A NRA expert but has over a 1000 posts talking about stuff you can't master. Oh it's so hard to make master, blah, blah, blah. Other people do it why can't you???
Why don't you log off and practice.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XTR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I picked up a Creedmore jacket, but it's just for playing Service Rifle games once in a while.
Slings and Irons are as interesting to me as Bullseye with a 45, never did it; never will. I did shoot USPSA/IPSC back in the 80s.
</div></div>
Just typical, "never tired it and never will" but your on the internet talking about it. You have so much to say about stuff you've never tried, sounds like a crybaby to me.
A NRA expert but has over a 1000 posts talking about stuff you can't master. Oh it's so hard to make master, blah, blah, blah. Other people do it why can't you???
Why don't you log off and practice.
Re: Shooting jacket
DENYS said “Let's not forget the origins of F-class. George Farquharson (the eponymous "F" in F-class,) was an old Canadian Fullbore shooter whose eyesight had faded over the years and he also found that holding a rifle for the duration of the match was too much at his advancing age. He pionnered F-class and for a while, the F-classers shot on the same targets as all the others. In that respect Mudcat is essentially correct. However when the NRA sanctioned the discipline in 2007, they also brought in new targets, with scoring rings at one quarter the size of the regular targets. That changed the game dramatically.”
Thats exactly who I was referring to, so I am not sure what I wasnt “essentially correct” about.
And just how did changing the target in 2007 change the game dramatically? Scoring, yes, but you are still shooting the same way, just at different scoring rings. Something had to be done cause the folks that were doing well were simply going 200-20 and having to do shoot offs. We have sling shooters that have shot 200-20 on some of the targets and a lot of us can get 200 with high x counts on a lot of the targets a lot of the time. The targets had to change, or it would be an even bigger mess now. Otherwise, I don’t see how the game changed? And didnt the target change by ½? I thought the X ring went from 1MOA to 1/2MOA, 10 ring from 2MOA to 1MOA? Or am i miscalculating?
DENYS said “Having two versions of F-class was probably the wisest decision ever taken (ok, maybe not "ever" but it was a good one) so that we have essentially two different disciplines using the same targets and they are able to compete alongside each other. I frequently have to squad F-T/R shooters with F-Open shooters on the same target and it works fine because it is the same target.”
Totally agree that having 2 classes is wise. Just like we do in HP...actually, more than two, as we have service, palma, match, any, etc. But they are not different disciplines. Don’t see why there would be any issue with squading FTR and FO on same target...we do it all the time. Even squad F with sling shooters and the only issue is the guys in the pits have to change out the target...takes seconds.
DENYS said “Lots of people think of F-Open as an armament race, and I suspect that at the very top end that is somewhat true but I also know of the dedication and the care these top shooters give to preparation of the ammo and their equipment. I also know the level of marksmanship and the situational awareness these people display at matches. But it is undeniable that F-Open rifles and especially calibers bring in an extra edge in accuracy.”
The big difference I see is that in FO, you get a better wind bucking round, thats sorta the idea, same with match vs palma. And I disagree as to accuracy....seems to me my 308s are outshooting my fast 6s and 6.5s, but it could just be me.
DENYS said “I shoot F-T/R exclusively and my equipment has evolved over the years, as have my scores and perhaps even my marksmanship level. I shot fullbore all the way back in the early 1980s and then Service Rifle and then fell into F-T/R. I will agree with XTR that shooting Expert in F-T/R is hard. At Long Range, I mean. I hold an Expert LR classification which I obtained shooting at 1000 yards exclusively, because that's virtually the only F-class LR we shoot at our club. Mid-range is a lot easier, (I have HM there,) it just seems that things happen to a .308 bullet after 800 yards and I don't think a jacket will make one iota of difference. In fact, I find that I shoot best when I am physically as comfortable as I can be and in Houston, summers are brutal and the last thing I want is to add an extra layer of clothes or two. I do use elbow protectors that I bought at Academy.”
Of course midrange is easier, you are closer to the target. Shooting at 1000 is way tougher than 600. You have 400 more yards of environment to shoot thru and when that bullet gets way out there its really struggling to get to the target and is affected greater by the environment. And I would agree, why where a jacket for F class? The rests are doing what the jacket, sling and body do when sling shooting.
DENYS said “Let's not forget the origins of F-class. George Farquharson (the eponymous "F" in F-class,) was an old Canadian Fullbore shooter whose eyesight had faded over the years and he also found that holding a rifle for the duration of the match was too much at his advancing age. He pionnered F-class and for a while, the F-classers shot on the same targets as all the others. In that respect Mudcat is essentially correct. However when the NRA sanctioned the discipline in 2007, they also brought in new targets, with scoring rings at one quarter the size of the regular targets. That changed the game dramatically.”
Thats exactly who I was referring to, so I am not sure what I wasnt “essentially correct” about.
And just how did changing the target in 2007 change the game dramatically? Scoring, yes, but you are still shooting the same way, just at different scoring rings. Something had to be done cause the folks that were doing well were simply going 200-20 and having to do shoot offs. We have sling shooters that have shot 200-20 on some of the targets and a lot of us can get 200 with high x counts on a lot of the targets a lot of the time. The targets had to change, or it would be an even bigger mess now. Otherwise, I don’t see how the game changed? And didnt the target change by ½? I thought the X ring went from 1MOA to 1/2MOA, 10 ring from 2MOA to 1MOA? Or am i miscalculating?
DENYS said “Having two versions of F-class was probably the wisest decision ever taken (ok, maybe not "ever" but it was a good one) so that we have essentially two different disciplines using the same targets and they are able to compete alongside each other. I frequently have to squad F-T/R shooters with F-Open shooters on the same target and it works fine because it is the same target.”
Totally agree that having 2 classes is wise. Just like we do in HP...actually, more than two, as we have service, palma, match, any, etc. But they are not different disciplines. Don’t see why there would be any issue with squading FTR and FO on same target...we do it all the time. Even squad F with sling shooters and the only issue is the guys in the pits have to change out the target...takes seconds.
DENYS said “Lots of people think of F-Open as an armament race, and I suspect that at the very top end that is somewhat true but I also know of the dedication and the care these top shooters give to preparation of the ammo and their equipment. I also know the level of marksmanship and the situational awareness these people display at matches. But it is undeniable that F-Open rifles and especially calibers bring in an extra edge in accuracy.”
The big difference I see is that in FO, you get a better wind bucking round, thats sorta the idea, same with match vs palma. And I disagree as to accuracy....seems to me my 308s are outshooting my fast 6s and 6.5s, but it could just be me.
DENYS said “I shoot F-T/R exclusively and my equipment has evolved over the years, as have my scores and perhaps even my marksmanship level. I shot fullbore all the way back in the early 1980s and then Service Rifle and then fell into F-T/R. I will agree with XTR that shooting Expert in F-T/R is hard. At Long Range, I mean. I hold an Expert LR classification which I obtained shooting at 1000 yards exclusively, because that's virtually the only F-class LR we shoot at our club. Mid-range is a lot easier, (I have HM there,) it just seems that things happen to a .308 bullet after 800 yards and I don't think a jacket will make one iota of difference. In fact, I find that I shoot best when I am physically as comfortable as I can be and in Houston, summers are brutal and the last thing I want is to add an extra layer of clothes or two. I do use elbow protectors that I bought at Academy.”
Of course midrange is easier, you are closer to the target. Shooting at 1000 is way tougher than 600. You have 400 more yards of environment to shoot thru and when that bullet gets way out there its really struggling to get to the target and is affected greater by the environment. And I would agree, why where a jacket for F class? The rests are doing what the jacket, sling and body do when sling shooting.
Re: Shooting jacket
Hey guys ! Thanks but can we please get back to the original question ? Not being rude !
Arguments about shooting should be settled at the range in a fair comp. best man wins, right.
If you don't like shooting jackets then please keep that to yourself. Don't want to argue. Just want some information is all.
I personally liked wearing the jacket most of the time. That's why I asked the question.
Tell me if you will, what do you like and don't like about the shooting jacket you use in what ever shooting discipline you participate in. Thanks ...
Hey guys ! Thanks but can we please get back to the original question ? Not being rude !
Arguments about shooting should be settled at the range in a fair comp. best man wins, right.
If you don't like shooting jackets then please keep that to yourself. Don't want to argue. Just want some information is all.
I personally liked wearing the jacket most of the time. That's why I asked the question.
Tell me if you will, what do you like and don't like about the shooting jacket you use in what ever shooting discipline you participate in. Thanks ...
Re: Shooting jacket
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Xcount</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XTR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I picked up a Creedmore jacket, but it's just for playing Service Rifle games once in a while.
Slings and Irons are as interesting to me as Bullseye with a 45, never did it; never will. I did shoot USPSA/IPSC back in the 80s.
</div></div>
Just typical, "never tired it and never will" but your on the internet talking about it. You have so much to say about stuff you've never tried, sounds like a crybaby to me.</div></div>
X count, I stated my personal opinion and qualified it as so. If you read my post to mean that I cast dispersion on those who do choose to sling up then you misread my post. In fact I agree that there is more to master to be proficient; however, I don't have to compete in darts to know it's not interesting to me. I've fired 10s of thousands of rounds through my 45s, I don't need to compete in Bullseye to know that it's not interesting to me and I do shoot every week with guys who sling up, I've handled the equipment, I've looked at the sight pictures, I'm not interested.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
A NRA expert but has over a 1000 posts talking about stuff you can't master. Oh it's so hard to make master, blah, blah, blah. Other people do it why can't you???
Why don't you log off and practice.
</div></div>
Funny.
My current classification is from Aug of last year after my first 2 matches for record. The NRA is pretty notorious for not updating classifications regularly. Lastly, show me more than a very few guys who can maintain a Master classification shooting <span style="text-decoration: underline">only</span> F-TR. The USFT-R team website doesn't list the any of the shooters classifications in F-class except Warren Dean as a Master, though it lists some of the members classifications in other disciplines, and w/o NRA numbers I don't know how to look them up but I'd bet that a number of them are Experts. I wonder if Darrell might weigh in. Maintaining a 193 average for 20 shots at 1000 on an F class target with a 308 is just a little more than hard.
As for log off and practice, By current count my new barrel has 519 rounds down range since 2/12/12, of that 135 were load development at 200, the rest are at 600 to 1000. How about you?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Xcount</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XTR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I picked up a Creedmore jacket, but it's just for playing Service Rifle games once in a while.
Slings and Irons are as interesting to me as Bullseye with a 45, never did it; never will. I did shoot USPSA/IPSC back in the 80s.
</div></div>
Just typical, "never tired it and never will" but your on the internet talking about it. You have so much to say about stuff you've never tried, sounds like a crybaby to me.</div></div>
X count, I stated my personal opinion and qualified it as so. If you read my post to mean that I cast dispersion on those who do choose to sling up then you misread my post. In fact I agree that there is more to master to be proficient; however, I don't have to compete in darts to know it's not interesting to me. I've fired 10s of thousands of rounds through my 45s, I don't need to compete in Bullseye to know that it's not interesting to me and I do shoot every week with guys who sling up, I've handled the equipment, I've looked at the sight pictures, I'm not interested.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
A NRA expert but has over a 1000 posts talking about stuff you can't master. Oh it's so hard to make master, blah, blah, blah. Other people do it why can't you???
Why don't you log off and practice.
</div></div>
Funny.
My current classification is from Aug of last year after my first 2 matches for record. The NRA is pretty notorious for not updating classifications regularly. Lastly, show me more than a very few guys who can maintain a Master classification shooting <span style="text-decoration: underline">only</span> F-TR. The USFT-R team website doesn't list the any of the shooters classifications in F-class except Warren Dean as a Master, though it lists some of the members classifications in other disciplines, and w/o NRA numbers I don't know how to look them up but I'd bet that a number of them are Experts. I wonder if Darrell might weigh in. Maintaining a 193 average for 20 shots at 1000 on an F class target with a 308 is just a little more than hard.
As for log off and practice, By current count my new barrel has 519 rounds down range since 2/12/12, of that 135 were load development at 200, the rest are at 600 to 1000. How about you?
Re: Shooting jacket
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ammo dog 2311</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Great info guys, is the ISU jacket as well made as the creedmoor ? Any tips on the size to order ? Buying a jacket without puttin it on is scaring me. Do you go by your suit jacket size ? What about the color of the jacket does one color attract more sun then another ? Thanks </div></div>
Its extremely well made. 200.00 seems like cheap price for it. get a size about 2" bigger than what you think you need.
On this F, F TR versus Palma stuff. Really who really cares just go shoot
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ammo dog 2311</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Great info guys, is the ISU jacket as well made as the creedmoor ? Any tips on the size to order ? Buying a jacket without puttin it on is scaring me. Do you go by your suit jacket size ? What about the color of the jacket does one color attract more sun then another ? Thanks </div></div>
Its extremely well made. 200.00 seems like cheap price for it. get a size about 2" bigger than what you think you need.
On this F, F TR versus Palma stuff. Really who really cares just go shoot
Re: Shooting jacket
Far be it from me to defend the NRA, but the classification update delay is much more due to match officials not turning in their reports quickly than with any delay in processing at the NRA. Or so it has been my experience. Right now, I submit (by mail,) the NRA report within 3 days of a match. The report is ready almost as soon as I get back home, but I wait a few days after publishing the scores to see if I have made a mistake somehere, before sending in the packet.
Mudcat, MOA is an agular measure used to describe the diameter of a cone which covers an area at any given range. The formula used to calculate the area of a circle is A=PI * (radius squared). So while the diameter of the F-class X-ring might be half the diameter of the regular target, the area covered by the F-class X-ring is about one quarter the size of the LR-1 X-ring; 19.6 square inches compared to 78.5 square inches. I don't know about you but my hits are spread around in two dimensions.
I will also add that the X-ring is not one half MOA, it is 5 inches. Close enough to one half MOA, but not quite. In fact if the targets were MOA based, the F-class X-ring would be 21.5 square inches and the LR-1 X-ring would be 86.1 square inches.
Far be it from me to defend the NRA, but the classification update delay is much more due to match officials not turning in their reports quickly than with any delay in processing at the NRA. Or so it has been my experience. Right now, I submit (by mail,) the NRA report within 3 days of a match. The report is ready almost as soon as I get back home, but I wait a few days after publishing the scores to see if I have made a mistake somehere, before sending in the packet.
Mudcat, MOA is an agular measure used to describe the diameter of a cone which covers an area at any given range. The formula used to calculate the area of a circle is A=PI * (radius squared). So while the diameter of the F-class X-ring might be half the diameter of the regular target, the area covered by the F-class X-ring is about one quarter the size of the LR-1 X-ring; 19.6 square inches compared to 78.5 square inches. I don't know about you but my hits are spread around in two dimensions.
I will also add that the X-ring is not one half MOA, it is 5 inches. Close enough to one half MOA, but not quite. In fact if the targets were MOA based, the F-class X-ring would be 21.5 square inches and the LR-1 X-ring would be 86.1 square inches.
Re: Shooting jacket
XTR,
I'm a Double Distinguished, Master in several categories shooter. I don't need to explain to you how many rounds i've shot, it's of no consequence. But i see how you tried to turn this crap around on to me so you won't have to see the real problem with your shooting, YOU.
LOG OFF and quit crying.
XTR,
I'm a Double Distinguished, Master in several categories shooter. I don't need to explain to you how many rounds i've shot, it's of no consequence. But i see how you tried to turn this crap around on to me so you won't have to see the real problem with your shooting, YOU.
LOG OFF and quit crying.
Re: Shooting jacket
To get back to the ops original question, Greg makes some excellent points with regards to his use of an old USMC cotton jacket. I have an old lightweight 10X shooting jacket that I use infrequently. Its only button down but the padded elbows give me some relief from the ground, as well as the lightly padded shoulder pad. I think the jacket provided me an added level of comfort that combined with the shooting mat allows me to concentrate on other matters, obviously just my humble opinion.
To get back to the ops original question, Greg makes some excellent points with regards to his use of an old USMC cotton jacket. I have an old lightweight 10X shooting jacket that I use infrequently. Its only button down but the padded elbows give me some relief from the ground, as well as the lightly padded shoulder pad. I think the jacket provided me an added level of comfort that combined with the shooting mat allows me to concentrate on other matters, obviously just my humble opinion.
Re: Shooting jacket
WOW...
On the topic at hand, I don't personally use a shooting jacket of any sort, but for years I would always shoot F-T/R in a sweatshirt. It probably provided the slight insulation of the rifle from my pulse that I needed starting out. That said, I know quite a few guys (experienced shooters) that do wear some sort of a "shooting garment". I know more that use pads or sandbags to insulate themselves from the ground. My position has evolved into a pretty minimalist sort of setup (no pads, jackets, or most anything else to haul overseas to matches), but there are plenty of top shooters that use any or all of these tools; more power to them!
I'll second what Mike says about "who cares what class you shoot, JUST SHOOT"! This "class vs. class" friction does nothing to promote the sport (in whatever flavor) we all enjoy. At the end of the day, we are all flinging hunks of lead downrange at extended distances. This was especially brought home in South Africa last month, where their Nationals consisted of not only "Palma", F-T/R, and F-Open, but also .303 British, <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">and</span></span> black powder classes... That was a busy range!
As regards F-Open vs. F-T/R; there are those that claim that F-Open is purely an equipment race, where the shooter matters very little. For the "equipment race", they are quite correct... and so what? Their class is set up to reward the tinkerers, those that will expand the envelope developing new wildcats, new equipment, etc. For those that think the shooter matters not at all... well, I submit that you haven't shot F-Open recently, their top shooters are some of the best in the business. For those that sneer at F-T/R, comparing scores to the F-Open or Palma types, try shooting at the F-Class target at 1000 yards with bullets that have almost double the wind deflection (155.5 .308 vs. a 180 grain Hybrid 7mm) off a bipod. Obviously, F-T/R is a different game altogether, with it's more standardized equipment and a (relatively) inefficient projectile at 1000+ yards. To be sure, there has been a fair amount of development in F-T/R as well. At the top end of the field, people's technique and equipment has come a long way since 2004.
As I've said before, think Top Fuel dragsters vs. NASCAR... there's room (and need) for both.
As to XTR's question about how many shooters on the US F-T/R Team are classified Master, Expert, etc... The info you see on the "Shooter's Page" is basically what the guys submit to me for their "bio". Most guys don't put their classifications on there. I can say that there are a handful of long-range Master's amongst us, and a High-Master or two, but long-range Experts are more common. For mid-range, most guys/gals are Masters, or High Masters, with some Experts. The NRA classifications are almost useless for F-Class though, they tell someone *FAR* more about your home range (where you typically compete) than they tell about the relative experience/competence of the shooter in question. If you shoot on a difficult (big wind) range (Rattlesnake, Phoenix, etc.), your classification will (generally) be lower, if you shoot on a "wind-tunnel" range, your classification will (generally) be higher. Then throwing shooter skill into the mix, tends to make a mess!
Good shooting to all,
Darrell
WOW...
On the topic at hand, I don't personally use a shooting jacket of any sort, but for years I would always shoot F-T/R in a sweatshirt. It probably provided the slight insulation of the rifle from my pulse that I needed starting out. That said, I know quite a few guys (experienced shooters) that do wear some sort of a "shooting garment". I know more that use pads or sandbags to insulate themselves from the ground. My position has evolved into a pretty minimalist sort of setup (no pads, jackets, or most anything else to haul overseas to matches), but there are plenty of top shooters that use any or all of these tools; more power to them!
I'll second what Mike says about "who cares what class you shoot, JUST SHOOT"! This "class vs. class" friction does nothing to promote the sport (in whatever flavor) we all enjoy. At the end of the day, we are all flinging hunks of lead downrange at extended distances. This was especially brought home in South Africa last month, where their Nationals consisted of not only "Palma", F-T/R, and F-Open, but also .303 British, <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">and</span></span> black powder classes... That was a busy range!
As regards F-Open vs. F-T/R; there are those that claim that F-Open is purely an equipment race, where the shooter matters very little. For the "equipment race", they are quite correct... and so what? Their class is set up to reward the tinkerers, those that will expand the envelope developing new wildcats, new equipment, etc. For those that think the shooter matters not at all... well, I submit that you haven't shot F-Open recently, their top shooters are some of the best in the business. For those that sneer at F-T/R, comparing scores to the F-Open or Palma types, try shooting at the F-Class target at 1000 yards with bullets that have almost double the wind deflection (155.5 .308 vs. a 180 grain Hybrid 7mm) off a bipod. Obviously, F-T/R is a different game altogether, with it's more standardized equipment and a (relatively) inefficient projectile at 1000+ yards. To be sure, there has been a fair amount of development in F-T/R as well. At the top end of the field, people's technique and equipment has come a long way since 2004.
As I've said before, think Top Fuel dragsters vs. NASCAR... there's room (and need) for both.
As to XTR's question about how many shooters on the US F-T/R Team are classified Master, Expert, etc... The info you see on the "Shooter's Page" is basically what the guys submit to me for their "bio". Most guys don't put their classifications on there. I can say that there are a handful of long-range Master's amongst us, and a High-Master or two, but long-range Experts are more common. For mid-range, most guys/gals are Masters, or High Masters, with some Experts. The NRA classifications are almost useless for F-Class though, they tell someone *FAR* more about your home range (where you typically compete) than they tell about the relative experience/competence of the shooter in question. If you shoot on a difficult (big wind) range (Rattlesnake, Phoenix, etc.), your classification will (generally) be lower, if you shoot on a "wind-tunnel" range, your classification will (generally) be higher. Then throwing shooter skill into the mix, tends to make a mess!
Good shooting to all,
Darrell
Re: Shooting jacket
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Denys</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Far be it from me to defend the NRA, but the classification update delay is much more due to match officials not turning in their reports quickly than with any delay in processing at the NRA. Or so it has been my experience. Right now, I submit (by mail,) the NRA report within 3 days of a match. The report is ready almost as soon as I get back home, but I wait a few days after publishing the scores to see if I have made a mistake somehere, before sending in the packet.
Mudcat, MOA is an agular measure used to describe the diameter of a cone which covers an area at any given range. The formula used to calculate the area of a circle is A=PI * (radius squared). So while the diameter of the F-class X-ring might be half the diameter of the regular target, the area covered by the F-class X-ring is about one quarter the size of the LR-1 X-ring; 19.6 square inches compared to 78.5 square inches. I don't know about you but my hits are spread around in two dimensions.
I will also add that the X-ring is not one half MOA, it is 5 inches. Close enough to one half MOA, but not quite. In fact if the targets were MOA based, the F-class X-ring would be 21.5 square inches and the LR-1 X-ring would be 86.1 square inches. </div></div>
man, you are making my head hurt! I still say its irrelevant as only F class shoots on the F class targets and only HP shoots on the HP targets. Apples to oranges, as far as targets go. What is interesting is when a HP shooter slings up and shoots on the smaller F target.
And Darrell is right on the money, it doesnt matter what category someone is shooting in, as long as they are shooting. Like I said, I am extremely glad that F class shoots with HP around here as that allows me and my son to shoot together. Yeah, some day he will be in the "slinged burrito" but until then he is shooting F open and when he gets better in the wind, he is going Nascar and shooting F TR. ANd some day, when I cant sling up or see irons any longer, I am going to be shooting F class next to him while he is shooting HP.
And the F open, F TR is no different than service rifle vs match rifle in HP. Both have their purpose and both shoot side by side...most of the time (CMP being the oddball).
Either way, I am just dang glad more folks are shooting, regardless of what it is.
John
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Denys</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Far be it from me to defend the NRA, but the classification update delay is much more due to match officials not turning in their reports quickly than with any delay in processing at the NRA. Or so it has been my experience. Right now, I submit (by mail,) the NRA report within 3 days of a match. The report is ready almost as soon as I get back home, but I wait a few days after publishing the scores to see if I have made a mistake somehere, before sending in the packet.
Mudcat, MOA is an agular measure used to describe the diameter of a cone which covers an area at any given range. The formula used to calculate the area of a circle is A=PI * (radius squared). So while the diameter of the F-class X-ring might be half the diameter of the regular target, the area covered by the F-class X-ring is about one quarter the size of the LR-1 X-ring; 19.6 square inches compared to 78.5 square inches. I don't know about you but my hits are spread around in two dimensions.
I will also add that the X-ring is not one half MOA, it is 5 inches. Close enough to one half MOA, but not quite. In fact if the targets were MOA based, the F-class X-ring would be 21.5 square inches and the LR-1 X-ring would be 86.1 square inches. </div></div>
man, you are making my head hurt!
I still say its irrelevant as only F class shoots on the F class targets and only HP shoots on the HP targets. Apples to oranges, as far as targets go. What is interesting is when a HP shooter slings up and shoots on the smaller F target. And Darrell is right on the money, it doesnt matter what category someone is shooting in, as long as they are shooting. Like I said, I am extremely glad that F class shoots with HP around here as that allows me and my son to shoot together. Yeah, some day he will be in the "slinged burrito" but until then he is shooting F open and when he gets better in the wind, he is going Nascar and shooting F TR. ANd some day, when I cant sling up or see irons any longer, I am going to be shooting F class next to him while he is shooting HP.
And the F open, F TR is no different than service rifle vs match rifle in HP. Both have their purpose and both shoot side by side...most of the time (CMP being the oddball).
Either way, I am just dang glad more folks are shooting, regardless of what it is.
John
Re: Shooting jacket
The way I look at it is like this: In F-T/R the bipod is the equivalent of the sling and the rear rest is the equivalent of the shooting jacket. The riflescope and minature targets are the equivalent of fancy peep sights and the large targets, (we call them Hellen Keller targets.)
We use the same calibers (.223 and .308) and I discuss loads with the target rifle guys.
I did try it with my old shooting jacket for a while, but I'd much rather use Nike elbow pads to keep my elbows from slipping and retain the freedoom of movement to deal with the bipod and the rear rest.
The way I look at it is like this: In F-T/R the bipod is the equivalent of the sling and the rear rest is the equivalent of the shooting jacket. The riflescope and minature targets are the equivalent of fancy peep sights and the large targets, (we call them Hellen Keller targets.)
We use the same calibers (.223 and .308) and I discuss loads with the target rifle guys.
I did try it with my old shooting jacket for a while, but I'd much rather use Nike elbow pads to keep my elbows from slipping and retain the freedoom of movement to deal with the bipod and the rear rest.
Re: Shooting jacket
I suppose you Gents could sling up with iron sites and shoot F-Class targets to settle this. I'd be interested in seeing the results.
I suppose you Gents could sling up with iron sites and shoot F-Class targets to settle this. I'd be interested in seeing the results.
Re: Shooting jacket
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WhiskeyWebber</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I suppose you Gents could sling up with iron sites and shoot F-Class targets to settle this. I'd be interested in seeing the results. </div></div>
Not really, but if you were really interested it's simple to figure out, the F class 10 ring is the same as the HP X-Ring, so HP/Palma Xs are 10s, 10s are 9s etc..., and most of the good HP shooters I shoot with rarely shoot 8s so it would not be hard to figure out.
But, nobody on this thread said that sling shooters could or should shoot shoot on an F class target. There was a comment that sling shooting is harder, but that's difficult to define. In the beginning it is harder to shoot consistent scores with a sling. I've pulled for enough new shooters and had to chase hits all over the target, and a new F class shooter can probably keep it in the black first time out if the wind isn't strong and variable; however, given time to become proficient a sling shooter will make Expert easier than an <span style="text-decoration: underline">F-TR</span> shooter. Not only is the F class target smaller, the classification levels are higher by a category.
So, I guess you'll have to define for yourself what defines harder.
In case you haven't seen it before Long range classification levels:
<span style="font-weight: bold">
High power</span>
High Master . . . . . . . . . 97.00 and above
Master . . . . . . . . . . . . 94.00 to 96.99
Expert . . . . . . . . . . . . 89.00 to 93.99
Sharpshooter . . . . . . . . . 84.00 to 88.99
Marksman . . . . . . . . . . . Below 84.00
<span style="font-weight: bold">F class</span>
High Master . . . . . . . . . 98.00 and above
Master . . . . . . . . . . . 96.50 to 97.99
Expert . . . . . . . . . . . 94.00 to 96.49
Sharpshooter . . . . . . . . 91.50 to 93.99
Marksman . . . . . . .. . . . Below 91.50
If you can shoot consistent 188s for 20 rounds in F-TR you will win a lot of matches. At this point I'm personally damned happy when I ring up a 187 from the 1000 yard line.
All that said, the F Class target makes perfect sense for F class. I've looked at enough scores to know that on the HP targets more matches than not would be decided on X count. I know one day someone will finally clean a 1000 yard F-TR match, but so far it has not been done, so I still have the chance to be the first.
There are how many different shooting disciplines just for rifles, from small bore, Service Rifle, Benchrest, Schutzen, BPCR, Palma, High Power, F-TR, F-O. What makes this ripe for comparison/argument is that F class shoots the same calibers at the same distances and the same course of fire. It's the first kid on the block (other than BR) to be allowed artificial supports. That's pretty dramatic in the world of NRA shooting.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WhiskeyWebber</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I suppose you Gents could sling up with iron sites and shoot F-Class targets to settle this. I'd be interested in seeing the results. </div></div>
Not really, but if you were really interested it's simple to figure out, the F class 10 ring is the same as the HP X-Ring, so HP/Palma Xs are 10s, 10s are 9s etc..., and most of the good HP shooters I shoot with rarely shoot 8s so it would not be hard to figure out.
But, nobody on this thread said that sling shooters could or should shoot shoot on an F class target. There was a comment that sling shooting is harder, but that's difficult to define. In the beginning it is harder to shoot consistent scores with a sling. I've pulled for enough new shooters and had to chase hits all over the target, and a new F class shooter can probably keep it in the black first time out if the wind isn't strong and variable; however, given time to become proficient a sling shooter will make Expert easier than an <span style="text-decoration: underline">F-TR</span> shooter. Not only is the F class target smaller, the classification levels are higher by a category.
So, I guess you'll have to define for yourself what defines harder.
In case you haven't seen it before Long range classification levels:
<span style="font-weight: bold">
High power</span>
High Master . . . . . . . . . 97.00 and above
Master . . . . . . . . . . . . 94.00 to 96.99
Expert . . . . . . . . . . . . 89.00 to 93.99
Sharpshooter . . . . . . . . . 84.00 to 88.99
Marksman . . . . . . . . . . . Below 84.00
<span style="font-weight: bold">F class</span>
High Master . . . . . . . . . 98.00 and above
Master . . . . . . . . . . . 96.50 to 97.99
Expert . . . . . . . . . . . 94.00 to 96.49
Sharpshooter . . . . . . . . 91.50 to 93.99
Marksman . . . . . . .. . . . Below 91.50
If you can shoot consistent 188s for 20 rounds in F-TR you will win a lot of matches. At this point I'm personally damned happy when I ring up a 187 from the 1000 yard line.
All that said, the F Class target makes perfect sense for F class. I've looked at enough scores to know that on the HP targets more matches than not would be decided on X count. I know one day someone will finally clean a 1000 yard F-TR match, but so far it has not been done, so I still have the chance to be the first.
There are how many different shooting disciplines just for rifles, from small bore, Service Rifle, Benchrest, Schutzen, BPCR, Palma, High Power, F-TR, F-O. What makes this ripe for comparison/argument is that F class shoots the same calibers at the same distances and the same course of fire. It's the first kid on the block (other than BR) to be allowed artificial supports. That's pretty dramatic in the world of NRA shooting.
Re: Shooting jacket
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WhiskeyWebber</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I suppose you Gents could sling up with iron sites and shoot F-Class targets to settle this. I'd be interested in seeing the results. </div></div>
This has actually been done. A fairly well known Palma shooter shot in the 2006 F-Class Nationals in Sacramento "sling & irons" on the F-Class target. He did *very* well. (I've since co-opted him onto the US F-T/R Team) LOL...
The trick with *any* of the .308 disciplines is the wind. The penalty you pay for shooting F-T/R with the bipod is the tiny target, to induce vertical "stress"!
Darrell
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WhiskeyWebber</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I suppose you Gents could sling up with iron sites and shoot F-Class targets to settle this. I'd be interested in seeing the results. </div></div>
This has actually been done. A fairly well known Palma shooter shot in the 2006 F-Class Nationals in Sacramento "sling & irons" on the F-Class target. He did *very* well. (I've since co-opted him onto the US F-T/R Team) LOL...
The trick with *any* of the .308 disciplines is the wind. The penalty you pay for shooting F-T/R with the bipod is the tiny target, to induce vertical "stress"!
Darrell
Re: Shooting jacket
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XTR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XTR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
WhiskeyWebber said:There was a comment that sling shooting is harder, but that's difficult to define. In the beginning it is harder to shoot consistent scores with a sling.
</div></div>
Say what? How is it difficult to define? In one discipline you have to hold the rifle yourself and you have to use iron sights, in the other you get to lay you rifle on solid rests (yeah, I include the bipod in that category) and dont have to hold it...actually, to the contrary, you dont want to be holding it, and you get to use optics. How the heck isnt that easier?!? My 10 yr old cant shoot from a sling, but he sure the heck can shoot F class....and does quite well, even at 1000. I could take my wife out and she could shoot F class, but I highly doubt she can even hit the target off a sling, at about any distance. But within F class she would likely be at the bottom off the leaderboard, which would be expected as she is new and inexperienced. Just as my son did when he started a couple matches ago. Totally understandable. But what I dont understand is how, or even why, someone would argue that not having to sling up and use irons doesnt add a level or three of difficulty. Sorry, but I find that peculiar.
The fact that the target is smaller, or the classifcations are different is totally irrelevant. Thats where you are missing the point and running off on a tangent.
I am not saying that within the discipline it isnt difficult...on the contrary, guys like Darrell, Jeff, Jim, etc would whup my arse if I went out and tried to hang with them shooting F class, be it open or TR.
And Darrell is right, one can go out and shoot from a sling/irons, on the F class target, and hold their own. Its easy to know what your score would be, even if you shot on the "helen keller" target with the exception of Xs vs 10s if you try to translate from HK targt to F target as an X on the HK target would be an X or a 10 on the F target, but if someone shoots a 200-15x on the HK target you know they would have shot at least a 195, just dont know X count.
Would F class shooters really want the Helen Keller shooters on the F target? Guys like Darrell, Jeff and Jim wouldnt give a crap, but some others just might.
Re: Shooting jacket
This is the info I was lookin for. I think I will get this jacket to start out with and maybe a surplus cotton shooting coat for practice and real hot days. Where is the best place to get a surplus USMC jacket ?
Does anyone know if one color attracts more sun then another. Does a red jacket get hotter then a blue one ? I don't care what it looks like I just don't want to be backed like a potato. I assume that the leather jacket would be the hottest am I right ?
This is the info I was lookin for. I think I will get this jacket to start out with and maybe a surplus cotton shooting coat for practice and real hot days. Where is the best place to get a surplus USMC jacket ?
Does anyone know if one color attracts more sun then another. Does a red jacket get hotter then a blue one ? I don't care what it looks like I just don't want to be backed like a potato. I assume that the leather jacket would be the hottest am I right ?
Re: Shooting jacket
Interesting thread...
I shoot a little bit of both; though more F-Class than sling to be sure. I probably shoot about one or two 'serious' matches a year w/ irons, just about all the 'spare' time I can alot to it.
Obviously I don't operate at the same level in the one as I do the other... but its shocking (to me, at least) the difference in the amount of 'fine tuning' and holds I do with regard to the wind in F-Class for conditions I would just shoot thru using irons because a 1/4 min click just doesn't mean as much on the full-size LR target... then again, I can't hold/call that fine from a sling position either. There are those that can.
Regarding the color of the coat... yes, leather will bake you. My cordura Creedmoor Hardback is black with blue sleeves, vented down the sides. I sure wish I'd changed that setup the other way around. As it is, I cook in the summer and freeze in the winter.
Monte
Interesting thread...
I shoot a little bit of both; though more F-Class than sling to be sure. I probably shoot about one or two 'serious' matches a year w/ irons, just about all the 'spare' time I can alot to it.
Obviously I don't operate at the same level in the one as I do the other... but its shocking (to me, at least) the difference in the amount of 'fine tuning' and holds I do with regard to the wind in F-Class for conditions I would just shoot thru using irons because a 1/4 min click just doesn't mean as much on the full-size LR target... then again, I can't hold/call that fine from a sling position either. There are those that can.
Regarding the color of the coat... yes, leather will bake you. My cordura Creedmoor Hardback is black with blue sleeves, vented down the sides. I sure wish I'd changed that setup the other way around. As it is, I cook in the summer and freeze in the winter.
Monte
Re: Shooting jacket
Yep, pretty much what everyone said.... shooting jackets/coats are for limiting movement and cutting down the affect of pulse and keeping you from slipping around on your shooting mat.
They are equipped with things like rubber elbows you can spray with glue to keep you from moving around easily when shooting positions.... lots of straps, builky and heavy. They are made to help eliminate variables that cause unsteadiness in a sling. That's their whole purpose.
They don't make much sense when shooting off a bipod... the bipod and rear bag eliminate unsteadiness in that discipline... you shouldn't have pulse or anything else to worry about... it's more about equipment, proper loading, doping the wind and squeezing the trigger.
I still have my old champion's choice heavy leather green jacket with white back pannel equipped with about a million straps on it and a front pocket the exact right size to put a box of 7.62 in for shooting offhand... my old shooting stool with a carbide lamp in it for blackening the sights, shooting log book, shooting mit, can of stickum stuff for spraying down my elbows for the rapid strings, my old unertl spooting scope with a freeland stand and M1A supermatch and military sling for shooting the match course. Of course nobody is shooting 30 caliber anymore shooting the match course but, that's all they shot when I did it.
Yep, pretty much what everyone said.... shooting jackets/coats are for limiting movement and cutting down the affect of pulse and keeping you from slipping around on your shooting mat.
They are equipped with things like rubber elbows you can spray with glue to keep you from moving around easily when shooting positions.... lots of straps, builky and heavy. They are made to help eliminate variables that cause unsteadiness in a sling. That's their whole purpose.
They don't make much sense when shooting off a bipod... the bipod and rear bag eliminate unsteadiness in that discipline... you shouldn't have pulse or anything else to worry about... it's more about equipment, proper loading, doping the wind and squeezing the trigger.
I still have my old champion's choice heavy leather green jacket with white back pannel equipped with about a million straps on it and a front pocket the exact right size to put a box of 7.62 in for shooting offhand... my old shooting stool with a carbide lamp in it for blackening the sights, shooting log book, shooting mit, can of stickum stuff for spraying down my elbows for the rapid strings, my old unertl spooting scope with a freeland stand and M1A supermatch and military sling for shooting the match course. Of course nobody is shooting 30 caliber anymore shooting the match course but, that's all they shot when I did it.
Re: Shooting jacket
Mudcat, you are missing the point. How you define the goal is what determines the difficulty. If the goal is to shoot a clean 200 for 20 rounds then F-TR is far harder, it's never been done, by anyone, not Darrel not Danny, nobody. On the other hand how many 200s are fired every year by sling shooters? I saw the National record tied here last year at the State Championship, something like 200 17X if I remember.
<ul style="list-style-type: disc">[*]If you are defining your goal as keeping 20 shots in the black. Then you are right, F-class isn't even up to the level of training wheels, it's still on a trike.
[*]If you use the NRA classifications as your guide it's much harder, at least in F-TR. Take a look across the board and F-TR scores are typically lower than the sling shooter scores, but the classification system is harder (Open skews that).
[*]If you measure the difficulty by your score compared to the scores of your in class competitors, it will vary from match to match. and this whole discussion is irrelevant.
[*]If you measure against yourself and your personal goals, well, that can be harder than any of the others, and again this is an irrelevant discussion.[/list]
The last two get my vote.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: memilanuk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Interesting thread...
Obviously I don't operate at the same level in the one as I do the other... but its shocking (to me, at least) the difference in the amount of 'fine tuning' and holds I do with regard to the wind in F-Class for conditions I would just shoot thru using irons because a 1/4 min click just doesn't mean as much on the full-size LR target... then again, I can't hold/call that fine from a sling position either. There are those that can.
...
Monte</div></div>
This.
Mudcat, you are missing the point. How you define the goal is what determines the difficulty. If the goal is to shoot a clean 200 for 20 rounds then F-TR is far harder, it's never been done, by anyone, not Darrel not Danny, nobody. On the other hand how many 200s are fired every year by sling shooters? I saw the National record tied here last year at the State Championship, something like 200 17X if I remember.
<ul style="list-style-type: disc">[*]If you are defining your goal as keeping 20 shots in the black. Then you are right, F-class isn't even up to the level of training wheels, it's still on a trike.
[*]If you use the NRA classifications as your guide it's much harder, at least in F-TR. Take a look across the board and F-TR scores are typically lower than the sling shooter scores, but the classification system is harder (Open skews that).
[*]If you measure the difficulty by your score compared to the scores of your in class competitors, it will vary from match to match. and this whole discussion is irrelevant.
[*]If you measure against yourself and your personal goals, well, that can be harder than any of the others, and again this is an irrelevant discussion.[/list]
The last two get my vote.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: memilanuk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Interesting thread...
Obviously I don't operate at the same level in the one as I do the other... but its shocking (to me, at least) the difference in the amount of 'fine tuning' and holds I do with regard to the wind in F-Class for conditions I would just shoot thru using irons because a 1/4 min click just doesn't mean as much on the full-size LR target... then again, I can't hold/call that fine from a sling position either. There are those that can.
...
Monte</div></div>
This.
Re: Shooting jacket
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XTR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mudcat, you are missing the point. </div></div>
No sir, actually, I think you are missing the point. You took the argument to comparing levels of play WITHIN the dispcilines, I am still talking about between the disciplines, which is where this thread went off on a tangent. I would totally agree that WITHIN the discipline, to attain the levels you are talking about, F class has its bars set at higher levels and spreads the players out more. But, for the purposes of our prior exercise, thats totally irrelevant.
As for cleans, yeah, there are certainly those that can shoot them within our discipline but its still a mighty small group, overall.
Back to the original off topic discussion, if you still disagree with me as to which discipline, when comparing the two, is more difficult, I will take you and whoever put the challenge out there, up on that challenge. We can go head to head on an F class target with F class rigs/rules and then go head to head on sling/irons target (or Helen Keller target, as I think you put it) under those rules and we will see who wins. I am willing to wager that even though I have never shot an F class match in my life that when we combine the scores, I come out ahead. Care to wager?
John
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XTR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mudcat, you are missing the point. </div></div>
No sir, actually, I think you are missing the point. You took the argument to comparing levels of play WITHIN the dispcilines, I am still talking about between the disciplines, which is where this thread went off on a tangent. I would totally agree that WITHIN the discipline, to attain the levels you are talking about, F class has its bars set at higher levels and spreads the players out more. But, for the purposes of our prior exercise, thats totally irrelevant.
As for cleans, yeah, there are certainly those that can shoot them within our discipline but its still a mighty small group, overall.
Back to the original off topic discussion, if you still disagree with me as to which discipline, when comparing the two, is more difficult, I will take you and whoever put the challenge out there, up on that challenge. We can go head to head on an F class target with F class rigs/rules and then go head to head on sling/irons target (or Helen Keller target, as I think you put it) under those rules and we will see who wins. I am willing to wager that even though I have never shot an F class match in my life that when we combine the scores, I come out ahead. Care to wager?
John
Re: Shooting jacket
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: memilanuk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Regarding the color of the coat... yes, leather will bake you. My cordura Creedmoor Hardback is black with blue sleeves, vented down the sides. I sure wish I'd changed that setup the other way around. As it is, I cook in the summer and freeze in the winter.
Monte </div></div>
Monte is right on the money. If you dont want to bake in the summer, get light colors. In general, the darkest you want to be is the drab green/tan combo that is probably the most populer combo Creedmoor does. Light blue/gray is good too. If you get black, brown, dark green, prepare to cook in the summer...which you are going to do anyhow, but when you are sucking in sunlight, its even worse. For Fclass, I would NOT be in any sort of coat, but when you are sling shooting, its pretty much a necessity.
Leather is more flexible, cordora is the opposite. For prone shooting, I use all leather, for XTC, offand position only, I use cordura, leather for sitting/prone.
The cordura body, leather sleeves, is an option as well. Also, get vented, you will appreciate that part in the summer. Be sure you get it made to YOUR dimensions, so measure carefully and then avoid coat shrinkage...er, I mean off season weight gain.
John
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: memilanuk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Regarding the color of the coat... yes, leather will bake you. My cordura Creedmoor Hardback is black with blue sleeves, vented down the sides. I sure wish I'd changed that setup the other way around. As it is, I cook in the summer and freeze in the winter.
Monte </div></div>
Monte is right on the money. If you dont want to bake in the summer, get light colors. In general, the darkest you want to be is the drab green/tan combo that is probably the most populer combo Creedmoor does. Light blue/gray is good too. If you get black, brown, dark green, prepare to cook in the summer...which you are going to do anyhow, but when you are sucking in sunlight, its even worse. For Fclass, I would NOT be in any sort of coat, but when you are sling shooting, its pretty much a necessity.
Leather is more flexible, cordora is the opposite. For prone shooting, I use all leather, for XTC, offand position only, I use cordura, leather for sitting/prone.
The cordura body, leather sleeves, is an option as well. Also, get vented, you will appreciate that part in the summer. Be sure you get it made to YOUR dimensions, so measure carefully and then avoid coat shrinkage...er, I mean off season weight gain.
John
Re: Shooting jacket
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Darrell Buell</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
... That said, I know quite a few guys (experienced shooters) that do wear some sort of a "shooting garment". I know more that use pads or sandbags to insulate themselves from the ground. My position has evolved into a pretty minimalist sort of setup (no pads, jackets, or most anything else to haul overseas to matches), but there are plenty of top shooters that use any or all of these tools; more power to them!
</div></div>
FWIW, I use band-aids.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Darrell Buell</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
... That said, I know quite a few guys (experienced shooters) that do wear some sort of a "shooting garment". I know more that use pads or sandbags to insulate themselves from the ground. My position has evolved into a pretty minimalist sort of setup (no pads, jackets, or most anything else to haul overseas to matches), but there are plenty of top shooters that use any or all of these tools; more power to them!
</div></div>
FWIW, I use band-aids.
