Question for you guys that shoot a lot. POI has been hitting intermittently high and left from POA. Have been shooting 223 rounds that my rifle has shot well before. What am I most likely doing form wise to cause this ? Thanks in advance for any tips.
- Thread starter Turkeytider
- Start date
Do you keep having to adjust your scope turrets chasing it as it continues to move from the new zero? Or is your zero consistent and its just you pushing it off?
No, I`m not adjusting turrets, I THINK that it might be me doing something during the shot. I thought maybe that some of the shooters on SH might know if there`s something that causes this. I had two, 3 shot groups today that were almost identical. Both had two rounds close to the POA almost touching each other, then a third off high and left . Would qualify as flyers I suppose. Doing something with my shoulder, maybe?
Check your body alignment, npa, how you are placing into your shoulder and how the rear support is used. It sounds as if its mainly the support under the gun. Of course you are going to hear about the 3 shot groups. Follow through-all shots, remember that last one-theres always "one more"
I've seen high left on a right handed shooter, prone, a couple times from them relaxing their hand on their squeeze bag at the moment they break a shot. That and having bipods set too low seem to give recoil a little angle to exploit that way.
Well, the gun has a thin, sporter barrel. Should be stringing pretty badly with a ten shot group. It gets nice and warm with 3 shots, so I let it rest and shoot another gun. It`s a hunting rifle in all respects. I know, 3 shot groups are not the best. I can`t believe how much more complicated rifle shooting is compared to shotguns! It seems the slightest thing and you`re off a good inch one direction or another!
That flier isn't on the last round in the mag is it?
If the “flyer is always the last shot, it could be heat” I would still shoot a 10 shot group but give is about a minute between each shot, just to see how it behaves. A 223 doesn’t get a barrel too hot after 3 rounds
That`s an excellent question. I`m not sure. I need to pay more attention to that next time out. I don`t think so....but.
I don`t think it`s a heat thing, with a slow, 3 shot group. But when it comes to rifle shooting, what the hell do I know, LOL!
I've heard it attributed to bolt lock on gas guns. I'm not sure what causes it in bolt guns. I've heard it more than once from guys on the range though.
This, and likely bladed body off to the left, and butt of the rifle too far away from the centerline of the body.
This and bipod too low and/or a tendency to mash the gun down into the rear bag with your face instead of managing POA with body/hips….driving the gun with your face or neck.
Make sure your body alignment is good, make sure you aren’t smashing the gun with your face…your face flesh shouldn’t be rumpled up on your stock, increase your pull with your trigger arm, try some “no rear bag” shots to remind/convince your self that hip and shoulder alignment mean more than rear bag support and pay attention to which shot in the groups it is. Are you getting fidgety on the last shot as your brain says “nice group, try real hard on this last one so you don’t eff up”?
Thanks everybody for all the suggestions and input. Maybe my body is contorted like a pretzel!? I have to laugh and shake my head! Maybe I need to be satisfied with " Minute of Coyote " or " Minute of Pig " with that gun!
Seriously though, I`ll try to keep all this in mind on my next range trip.
Seriously though, I`ll try to keep all this in mind on my next range trip.
Hug the gun, don't lay on it.
Refreshing to see a guy ask for advice and accept it with an open mind. You'll get it sorted quickly would be my guess.
Thank you, sir. I`ve always enjoyed shooting and don`t take it so super seriously. It`s supposed to be fun! Having a bit of a challenge is good for my ageing brain as well.
I would tell you to video tape a couple group shots, use something steady to hold the phone/ recorder, don't have a person hold it. Video tape 3 of your 3 shot groups, remember which shots in which groups were flyers and analyze the video and see if you can spot any differences, like if you fidget a little on the pulled rounds or if you tilted your head a different way consistently on the 3rd shot of each group or something like that. Others have very good points but until someone sees what you're doing and can actually identify it we are all just guessing.
Yep, you`re absolutely right, it`s hit or miss with this shooting form stuff unless you`re somehow observed. I guess that`s one of the values of a training course. I`d probably consider looking into that ( and its cost, no doubt several hundred dollars ) if I were more serious about target shooting. Still might.
Yea i mean i wouldn't necessarily do that if you're not super into it, although it is good to just have the info. But if you're good at attention to detail stuff doing what i mentioned I'm sure you could find out something. You could even post a YouTube link here (i don't know how videos work on here or if you can even post one) so some of the better shooters in here (not me) could watch it and let you know what they think instead of just a guess.
Here is my thoughts about group Issues.
First, sit down with the rifle well supported front and back. Put the crosshairs on a dot target at least 100 yards away and dry fire. See where the rifle winds up after you squeeze the trigger.
Next, if you are satisfied, with your trigger pull, and follow through ask a fellow shooter to help.
Have the helper stand behind you and load your rifle with one round, or not with one round. Do this multiple times with no regular sequence so that you will never know if the fire arm has a round in the chamber when you squeeze the trigger. On the blank rounds, make sure the cross hair stay on the point of aim. Repeat until your rounds land at point of aim. If your scope is staying on the point of aim but your rounds are not hitting at point of aim, start checking mechanical issues with the rifle/scope/mounts/bedding and torque of action screws/bolts.
Now many may recognize that the above method is the way to help solve some one who flinches. You would be correct. However, getting a smooth, positive trigger squeeze, even when there is no flinch is not all that easy.
(this is where I get in trouble with the rest of the group)
As far as 3 shot, 5 shot, 10 shot, 5000 shot groups go. I say, this obviously sounds like a hunting rifle. As with all hunting rifles, the game animal normally is not going to wait on your barrel to cool so you can get a second aimed shot off with a nice cool barrel to assure that the bullet is going to go where its supposed too. Also, rarely is more than three shots are needed. Hunting is hunting. A quick follow up shot needs to hit exactly where the first shot went, which is point of aim. Rarely will a third shot be available but if it is needed it needs to Quick!
So, for hunting rifles, multiple three shot groups are much better than a ten shot group. Of course, following each three shot group it is then, important to let the barrel cool to ambient temperatures. The hunter needs to know where his bullet is going to go with a cold shot first round and follow up shots with a hot barrel. If they don’t all land at the same point of aim, there is a real problem with the rifle.
If this is a target rifle, Rebarrel the thing and throw out all that I just wrote about groups.
Final thought, If a fellow needs to let his hunting rifles barrel cool down between each shot, consider the meme below.
Not the same thing but the same thought.
First, sit down with the rifle well supported front and back. Put the crosshairs on a dot target at least 100 yards away and dry fire. See where the rifle winds up after you squeeze the trigger.
Next, if you are satisfied, with your trigger pull, and follow through ask a fellow shooter to help.
Have the helper stand behind you and load your rifle with one round, or not with one round. Do this multiple times with no regular sequence so that you will never know if the fire arm has a round in the chamber when you squeeze the trigger. On the blank rounds, make sure the cross hair stay on the point of aim. Repeat until your rounds land at point of aim. If your scope is staying on the point of aim but your rounds are not hitting at point of aim, start checking mechanical issues with the rifle/scope/mounts/bedding and torque of action screws/bolts.
Now many may recognize that the above method is the way to help solve some one who flinches. You would be correct. However, getting a smooth, positive trigger squeeze, even when there is no flinch is not all that easy.
(this is where I get in trouble with the rest of the group)
As far as 3 shot, 5 shot, 10 shot, 5000 shot groups go. I say, this obviously sounds like a hunting rifle. As with all hunting rifles, the game animal normally is not going to wait on your barrel to cool so you can get a second aimed shot off with a nice cool barrel to assure that the bullet is going to go where its supposed too. Also, rarely is more than three shots are needed. Hunting is hunting. A quick follow up shot needs to hit exactly where the first shot went, which is point of aim. Rarely will a third shot be available but if it is needed it needs to Quick!
So, for hunting rifles, multiple three shot groups are much better than a ten shot group. Of course, following each three shot group it is then, important to let the barrel cool to ambient temperatures. The hunter needs to know where his bullet is going to go with a cold shot first round and follow up shots with a hot barrel. If they don’t all land at the same point of aim, there is a real problem with the rifle.
If this is a target rifle, Rebarrel the thing and throw out all that I just wrote about groups.
Final thought, If a fellow needs to let his hunting rifles barrel cool down between each shot, consider the meme below.
Not the same thing but the same thought.
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Did some dry firing today, incorporating suggestions. Paid attention to body alignment ( head, shoulders, feet ) with gun and target. Paid attention to light cheek pressure and keeping relaxed, squared shoulders, trying not to move my shoulder into the gun. Did notice essentially no crosshair movement with trigger pull. We`ll see what happens with all this at the range. Did also check action screws to see if they might have loosened. Nope.
Thanks again everybody, much appreciated.
Thanks again everybody, much appreciated.
I don't mean to hijack or get us off-track but I'm working through a similar issue and am considering videoing some shooting. My question is, what camera angles or positions are the most helpful (from a left-handed shooter)? I would be able to get one directly from my 6 o'clock but because I shoot an indoor stall range, wouldn't be able to video from 3 or 9. Could maybe get 4,5 or 7,8 though.
I've also found that, as a habit of focusing on movement / transition drills with the pistol, on the rifle I am coming off the trigger really quickly (to reset it) and not following through all the way to the rear. Needs more testing but I was happy to figure something out
My point is, thanks for all the advice in these type threads!
I've also found that, as a habit of focusing on movement / transition drills with the pistol, on the rifle I am coming off the trigger really quickly (to reset it) and not following through all the way to the rear. Needs more testing but I was happy to figure something out
My point is, thanks for all the advice in these type threads!They did! Groups improved greatly today. Comfortable now in affirming that my equipment is not to blame for my crappy shooting. That was something that I wanted to get accomplished. Caught myself in a flinch once even. Would much rather have these shooter issues than some gun/scope related problem that would have to be tracked down. I`m glad to be able to say that my Savage 110 shoots better than I do! Thanks everyone.
