shooting the mover?

veezer

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I haven't had the opportunity to practice much on a mover and they are popping up more at local matches so I'm looking for advice on how to approach them. In the past, I used the trap method where I just aim ahead of the target and when the front of the target gets to my lead (ie 1.6 mils at 300 with a 6 dasher), I press the trigger and sometimes I get hits and sometimes not. Right now, I'm shooting a 224 valkyrie with 80 gr eldm's at 2880. If I enter all data in my kestrel and set the target speed to 3.5 mph at a 500 yd target, it tells me 2.0 mil lead. So my stupid question of the day is, is that the lead to the front edge of the target or do I wait until the 2.0 mark is at the center of the target?

Just trying to get proper data figured out and then I need to work on technique...especially slowing down. It's always tempting to shoot as fast as possible and that usually doesn't work out well for most people or me.
 

jhunter

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The Valkyrie and your dasher should line up exactly the same at 300 yards. I would use previous engagements to decide on the hold.
 

hlee

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I haven't had the opportunity to practice much on a mover and they are popping up more at local matches so I'm looking for advice on how to approach them. In the past, I used the trap method where I just aim ahead of the target and when the front of the target gets to my lead (ie 1.6 mils at 300 with a 6 dasher), I press the trigger and sometimes I get hits and sometimes not. Right now, I'm shooting a 224 valkyrie with 80 gr eldm's at 2880. If I enter all data in my kestrel and set the target speed to 3.5 mph at a 500 yd target, it tells me 2.0 mil lead. So my stupid question of the day is, is that the lead to the front edge of the target or do I wait until the 2.0 mark is at the center of the target?

Just trying to get proper data figured out and then I need to work on technique...especially slowing down. It's always tempting to shoot as fast as possible and that usually doesn't work out well for most people or me.
Did you input a target size into the kestrel? If not, how could it calculate to the front edge?
 

phlegethon

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    Lead should be to center of target. I find it easier to match speed between the reticle and the mover, and I think that way you have less tendency to jerk the trigger. People have gotten both techniques to work. There is a web page I think where you can display movers for dry fire.
     

    308pirate

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    So my stupid question of the day is, is that the lead to the front edge of the target or do I wait until the 2.0 mark is at the center of the target?
    Think of it this way, if you were to aim dead center on a silhouette 500 yds away moving at 3.5 mph your bullet would strike 2 mils behind the center.
     
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    hlee

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    Why even bother, that way the calculated lead is always to the center. One less input to screw up.
    That was my veiled point. It’s to the center of the target. If the software were calculating to the front edge you would need to input target size and your lead would vary based on the size of the target. Too complicated.
     

    Jack Master

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    When shooting a mover you have to find all the "things" that take time. The lead a program gives you is the lead for the time it takes for you bullet to get from the end of your barrel to the target and is based on time of Flight. There are a few additional "things" that take time too.
    Working in reverse order:
    First is the time for the sear to release the firing pin, pin to move, ignition to start and the bullet to get to the end of the barrel. This time if very small but something to keep in mind.
    Second is the time it takes your eye to see the reticle hold line up on the target, send that to the brain, the brain to say pull the trigger and then the time it take for your finger to actually pull the trigger once the brain said go. This is often called "Lock Time"
    Your time of flight for a a 500 yard shot is around 0.468 seconds (2.0 mil hold on a 3.5mph target). If you have an additional 0.1 seconds of time for your lock time and internal ballistics to happen you'll see its easy to add 25% to your hold. Now you need 2.5 mils of hold to center.

    As an easy way around this I like to use the Program's lead to the leading edge of the plate. This makes up for the Lock time and internal ballistics to happen. The biggest benefit, to me, is it makes a clean time to break the trigger. When using the trapping method, I see the 2mil mark connect to the front edge of the target very cleanly and very precisely, I am not guessing at the center of the target with the 2 mil mark. This makes timing the trigger pull much easier. If I am a little behind or in-front its easier to adjust the hold to the leading edge of the target because its easily depicted.

    This is just my 2 cents and what has worked for me. Take from it what you will.

    As a thing to watch - watch how much hold an older shooter needs and you'll hear them say a larger number than a younger shooter (a 10th or 3). This is the difference is lock time.

    In the end Jerking the trigger is the biggest reason to miss a mover.
     

    veezer

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    When shooting a mover you have to find all the "things" that take time. The lead a program gives you is the lead for the time it takes for you bullet to get from the end of your barrel to the target and is based on time of Flight. There are a few additional "things" that take time too.
    Working in reverse order:
    First is the time for the sear to release the firing pin, pin to move, ignition to start and the bullet to get to the end of the barrel. This time if very small but something to keep in mind.
    Second is the time it takes your eye to see the reticle hold line up on the target, send that to the brain, the brain to say pull the trigger and then the time it take for your finger to actually pull the trigger once the brain said go. This is often called "Lock Time"
    Your time of flight for a a 500 yard shot is around 0.468 seconds (2.0 mil hold on a 3.5mph target). If you have an additional 0.1 seconds of time for your lock time and internal ballistics to happen you'll see its easy to add 25% to your hold. Now you need 2.5 mils of hold to center.

    As an easy way around this I like to use the Program's lead to the leading edge of the plate. This makes up for the Lock time and internal ballistics to happen. The biggest benefit, to me, is it makes a clean time to break the trigger. When using the trapping method, I see the 2mil mark connect to the front edge of the target very cleanly and very precisely, I am not guessing at the center of the target with the 2 mil mark. This makes timing the trigger pull much easier. If I am a little behind or in-front its easier to adjust the hold to the leading edge of the target because its easily depicted.

    This is just my 2 cents and what has worked for me. Take from it what you will.

    As a thing to watch - watch how much hold an older shooter needs and you'll hear them say a larger number than a younger shooter (a 10th or 3). This is the difference is lock time.

    In the end Jerking the trigger is the biggest reason to miss a mover.
    That all makes sense. Thanks for the help. I just wish I had the opportunity to practice it more and not just try to figure it out on the clock. I think target panic and jerking the trigger is one of my biggest problems. It seems like most people say they are using the front edge of the plate to initiate the shot and it makes sense because like you said, it's probably easier for our brain to look for the contrast of the target intersecting the spot on the reticle than trying to estimate the middle of the target before pulling the trigger.
     
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    rth1800

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    Older shooters have longer "lock time"? :)
    Are they shooting older rifles? Lock time is a mechanical/non human measurement.
     

    hlee

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    Older shooters have longer "lock time"? :)
    Are they shooting older rifles? Lock time is a mechanical/non human measurement.
    Biological lock time? Reaction time? Whatever. There is an amount of time from when you see the target is where you think it should be, to when your brain says "oh I should pull the trigger now," to when you actually pull the trigger. This will vary based on the shooter, and older shooters will generally have longer reaction times. I think that triggering on the front edge is sort of like being "on the pro side of the target" for wind calls. If you are a bit slow (or underestimate the wind) you have more of the plate for error.
     
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    Dthomas3523

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    Movers the exact same idea as non moving target. You want to get your impacts into the center of the target.

    If you miss, measure it and that’s now your new lead. The measurement you get from a miss now includes your personal lock time.

    This is assuming you’re doing things right like consistent trigger press and spotting your shots. If you’re not, then back to basics and don’t worry with movers until you’re ready.
     

    Dthomas3523

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    I’ll have to find it. But I believe it wasn’t long ago that an informal study/survey found a generally higher success rate with breaking shot on center of mover.

    Obviously there is personal preference. But it makes sense to go with what you commonly use as movers are rare and you’ll start reverting to habits on the clock.
     

    rth1800

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    Would it not make sense to simply mil the target and say it’s 1/4 mil then deduct 1/2 that from the leading edge hold? It reads complex but in fact it’s actually simple.
    I’m not a PRS shooter but I kill a lot of moving game with a rifle at long range.
     

    MakeSawdust

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    I have done a fair bit of both shooting game, and shooting movers. It is the "same" but very different. I grew up in Iowa where deer drives with slugs guns were prevalent until shooting big whitetail turned into a dick measuring game measured in dollars and inches of antler rather than fun and tall tales. Most shots were running. It is not assumed ethical by many, and indeed really probably isn't. No one learns with target setups and such. You just shoot at hundreds of deer to figure it out. Your brain gets a feel for how long it takes from when you say now until the slugs gets to the target. It is a timing thing. When you get really good at it, it happens instinctively. I shot running coyotes with a scoped rifle the same way. The leads are much larger than the lead on a 3.5mph mover target and the distances are often close enough that wind isn't much of a factor.

    When shooting movers in matches, the target speed is much slower and things become much more choppy feeling. It is difficult to use the timing to hit the target in that setting. Also, the reticle helps with a frame of reference to get the timing down, so you can shoot faster. When using the target speed to get the feel of the lead, I have to watch the target for a while before sending the shot.

    Also, the method used with tactical rifles takes out the different timing that happens at different ranges. The timing difference between shooting a target at 300 yards and 550 yds is huge, but the angular hold is not much different.

    One way is very calculated. The other is like a quarterback hitting a wide receiver only a few hundred times faster.

    Dthomas has the best method in my opinion. Make an educated guess and then spot your shots and adjust. It is the skill that separates the top guys from the good guys whether the targets are moving or not.
     

    lowlight

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    There is clearly a personal reaction time to shooting movers,

    You have to recognize the time and understand all formulas and programs only look at the time after the bullet leaves the barrel not before.

    You have a personal reaction time, we saw it a bunch at RO, one guy uses 1.5 the next guy uses 2.0 for the same target.

    The firing pin lock time, the dwell time of the bullet in the barrel, and then the time to get to the target.

    Up to about 700 yards, you can use the target timing method, count how long it takes to travel 1 second in the reticle, that is your lead. Or you can average about .5 Mils per 1 MPH, these work as rules of thumb.

    After the timing is sorted it comes down to fundamentals and how you execute the shot, including the wind. Guys can miss a static target all day but are here wondering about a mover. You have to look at the methods employed, as well as the direction of travel as many tend to favor one direction over another. They do well left to right, but not right to left. The "hop" are you resetting your NPA or just steering the rifle on to the target with the shoulders?

    Movers can be easy, or hard it just depends on your methods, are you fundamentally sound or just cracking shots off hoping to hit. We see a lot of people shoulder the rifle and say, I am gonna shoot the Mover, NOW and push into the shot and hit the ground or low in front of it. I have seen every conceivable way to shoot movers including guys who tried putting their bipod in a frisbee so they can pan with the movers - doesn't work as advertised.

    Funny we are doing a dedicated mover class next weekend in AK... cause they introduced them and everyone missed.
     
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    MakeSawdust

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    I think you hit the nail on the head. I think my problem with it being choppy is definitely an npa thing. I'm honestly not sure how I should set up npa on a mover. I am sure I am doing it wrong and my brain is constantly wanting to adjust my npa. I have all kinds of wtf misses on movers and I am sure they are because of poor fom.

    I can not get my success on game to carry over to movers in comps. All my shooting at running game was standing offhand or seated on shooting sticks. It is a lot less effort to reset npa in those positions than in the prone where we always shoot movers at matches.
     

    lowlight

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    Depends on the length of mover where you set up, I tend to shift my hips, and hop, so I set up just in front of the initial movement and then shift my hips hopping to keep up with it. I don't steer my shoulders but use my hips to point at the mover.

    Animals are long, movers are short. You have success on animals because you have more real estate, and odds are you are pretty close.

    It's actually easier to shoot the 500-yard mover vs shooting a 100-yard mover, because of the amount of movement required to stay with the target.

    Steel is pretty simple, especially if it's not purposely cut for a mover, and it's wider than 12". You can do the front edge of steel, but you can't with other targets like paper. We used to stagger the paper targets so you had a cardboard backer but offset individual targets so the front edge method does not work. You have to shoot for the middle.

    People usually only speak about tracking or ambushing, but I tend to work a hybrid method to track through the target using my horizontal stadia and then I ambush it, it's a combined method. When you are standing you can track much easier, you are not limited by the ground. But prone a tracking method is a lot harder because the ground limits our movement so we have to sweep through the target to get in front of it. We are not shotgunners so tracking is much harder. You usually start just in front of the limit, ambush it to set your lead then the hybrid method takes over to stay on it.

    But you want your NPA in the middle of the run, if it's short, or on the starting edge so you can then follow it, but understanding you will shift and point your hips not your shoulders.
     

    MakeSawdust

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    Thank you for posting your advice. I appreciate it.

    I haven't actually paid attention to how I do it until you posted. I think what I am doing wrong is that I am trying to set up my rough npa with my hips, but then I track with my shoulders (which is wrong) until I break the shot. Then I move my hips to set for the next shot. If I'm understanding you correctly, I need to be a bit more fluid in my movement with my hips and concentrate on not moving at all around my shoulders. It makes a lot of sense and explains the awkward feeling of tracking the mover from the prone.
     

    Dthomas3523

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    Thank you for posting your advice. I appreciate it.

    I haven't actually paid attention to how I do it until you posted. I think what I am doing wrong is that I am trying to set up my rough npa with my hips, but then I track with my shoulders (which is wrong) until I break the shot. Then I move my hips to set for the next shot. If I'm understanding you correctly, I need to be a bit more fluid in my movement with my hips and concentrate on not moving at all around my shoulders. It makes a lot of sense and explains the awkward feeling of tracking the mover from the prone.
    The closer the mover the more hip movement required. The further away, the less you have to hop around.
     
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