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Advanced Marksmanship Shooting Through Brush

SLVGW360

Sneed :)
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Full Member
Minuteman
Nov 1, 2009
61
21
South Central Colorado
The effects of vegetation as an intermediate barrier on accuracy and precision is a concept that I have wondered about since my youth reading about brush busting guns and loads in the various hunting magazines. Living out West in the vast openness the ideas seemed quite foreign to me. Several decades later with many years of hunting big and small game, 16 years as a wildlife manager/LE officer/firearms instructor later, these types of situations have become a reality for me more so than I would have expected. So, for some time I have wanted to test this concept and see what I would find.

My daughter recently needed to come up with a science fair project so the two needs came together to make this happen. I've talked to both Frank and Jacob and have gotten some great feedback and encouragement to do this project.

Last weekend my daughter and I went out to the range to run some preliminary trials. We made some interesting observations and were able to refine our study design.

We decided that we wanted to test shooting through a brush barrier that was placed close to the target (5 yards), midway to the target (50 yards) and very close to the muzzle (12").

Together, we built a frame and stand to hold the brush that would allow us to shoot through it in a fashion that would randomize contact with the obstructions just like would happen in real life. The size of the obstructions ranged from leaves and small green twigs to woody branches the size of a finger.

Our targets consisted of an 11"x17" piece of paper with 10 red 1" circles distributed evenly over the paper. This also helped with randomizing the portion of the brush barrier penetrated by the bullet.

We attempted to keep all variables the same, except for whether or not there was a brush barrier and the location of the brush barrier in the bullet path. We even addressed natural point of aim variations by standing up and rebuilding the position after 5 shots.

I did all the shooting while my daughter plotted impacts on her data sheet. This really helped us keep track once the bullets started doing strange things.

We took digital photos of each target up close and used the On Target application to measure the deviation of the POI from the POA. On Target is for analyzing groups. Since I fired only one shot per dot, I had to place a second shot exactly on top of the POA for the application to calculate. This was done for all shots so that variable should also be constant across all shots. Here are few images of what we did.

Brush Barrier

BulletBehavior008.jpg
BulletBehavior007.jpg


Conrol Group

308Control.jpg





























Barrier 5 Yards from Target

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Barrier 50 Yards From Target

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Muzzle Barrier

BulletBehavior013.jpg
308MuzzleBarrier.jpg



Sorry, I can't get the following to display very well.

Firearm .308 Winchester 100 yards

Measured Deviation by Target
Control 5 yard 50 yard Muzzle
0.575 0.656 1.411 1.372
0.096 0.537 0.509 1.651
0.028 0.702 0.981 2.57
0.541 1.025 1.523 1.431
0.09 0.288 0.925 1.179
0.735 0.891 0.566 0.759
0.338 0.353 0.519 2.591
0.759 0.647 0.491 1.553
0.209 1.059 0.777 3.94
0.431 0.551 0.403 1.369

Max Dev
0.759 1.059 1.523 3.94

Min Dev
0.028 0.288 0.403 0.759

Dev Range
0.731 0.771 1.12 3.181

Mean
0.3802 0.6709 0.8105 1.8415

Median
0.3845 0.6515 0.6715 1.492

Mode
#N/A #N/A #N/A #N/A

Std Dev
0.269 0.259 0.396 0.933

Variance
0.0728 0.0673 0.157 0.870

T Test
N/A 0.0122 0.005 0.0003


I am not statistician. That being said, I think that we can draw some conclusions from this data. We're still working on it, but if we did this right, there is a statistically significant difference between each treatment series and the control series. But what does that mean?

I think it is safe to say that the control is well within the limits of precision needed by law enforcement, military and sport shooting for precision applications.

The 5 yard barrier data doesn't look significant, but it is and bears noting. One might get away with a shot such as this, but when an innocent life is on the line this is not necessarily an automatic shoot situation. The totality of the circumstances and agency policy will or should dictate the course of action or inaction. In a hunting context, the distance of the target and the effect of going through the barrier on bullet energy loss and orientation should be weighed heavily before taking this shot. Those considerations likely change drastically between an elk at 150 yards vs an elk at 500 with a barrier 0 to 5 yards in front of it.

In trials we did shoot with the barrier at 7 and 25 yards also. The deviation didn't seem to us at the time to be significant enough to include in the actual trials. I would wager now that they too would have been significant. We really started to visualize deviations at 50 yards. Deviations are starting to stack up and these situations should be avoided in all circumstances. Paraphrasing Jacob and what he said in the online training section, once the bullet goes through a barrier it has entered its terminal phase. Beginning the terminal phase 50 yards before reaching a target seems to me to be an unreasonable risk if the shot you are taking matters in either a law enforcement or sportsman's context.

The deviations witnessed by even tiny obstructions at the muzzle are significant enough that the firing position should be analyzed carefully for any sort of obstruction as it has the potential to completely ruin the shot. We measured only the deviations noted at 100 yards. Being an angular phenomenon, these deviations will only grow as distance increases. As Frank put it, this is the very reason snipers carry clippers to clear their line of fire of all such obstructions.

If there are any statisticians out there who would like to help us out with this data, I would appreciate it.

Any and all questions or comments are welcome as I don't think we can learn too much from these sorts of things.

I make no representations of what we saw other than this raw data and my own opinions. We all know what opinions are worth. I do hope that someone will find it useful in some way and can help contribute to us all learning more.

RB

 
Re: Shooting Through Brush

That makes sense as any deflection would be linear in as the farther the distance from the first strike until it hits the target. It would be almost impossible to come up with the direction and how much deflection though as it may hit center twig, side twig or the twigs could be of different sizes. I think small brush like you have and if the brush is close to the target you have a reasonable chance in figuring you will hit said target. IMHO
 
Re: Shooting Through Brush

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SLVGW360</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This project won first place in the physics category at the regional science fair and will be going to the State Science Fair next month.
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That is awesome, congratulations for your Daughter !

Great Job !
 
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Re: Shooting Through Brush

Thanks guys. I was quite amazed. We went out to the range for two days. I did all the shooting for the experiments. I only posted the .308 information, but we used her .22 and she shot that a bit while we were out there. She loves to shoot my AR15 as well.

Anyway, we shot and I explained the concepts a couple of different times. I showed her how On Target works and then she wrote up the whole thing by herself and presented it. I was amazed how well she understood and could articulate the whole thing.

I'm a proud Papa.
 
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Re: Shooting Through Brush

Very cool science project! If its ok, i have questions

What were the deviation readings for different brush types at each distance?

How did you control uniformity of brush for each type of brush at each distance? The question here is to determine if the the bullet at 5 yards met with the same level of barrier as at muzzle distance.
 
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Re: Shooting Through Brush

Questions are perfectly OK. We only used one kind of brush, the species being Green Rabbit Brush. You can see the bracket and clamp device that we made to hold it.

The idea was to randomize the size and number of branches struck by the bullet. This was the purpose of using individual dots spread out across the paper. This ensured that "new" branches" were being struck on each shot. So, yes the same setup was used at each distance that the bracket was placed from the target.

We were able to lower and raise the clamp on the bracket to be sure that the bullets were going through the bulk of the brush.
 
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Re: Shooting Through Brush

Thanks for the effort to evaluate this and post your findings. Best of luck to your daughter.
 
Re: Shooting Through Brush

If you are trying to point out that not all the brush was the same, then that was the intended design of the project. The point being that we wanted to evaluate a vegetative barrier that ranged in size and composition from very thin and fleshy to thick and dry. The idea was to have each round have equal chance to impact the barrier in a random fashion.

There is no need to be cryptic or rhetorical, just ask the question.
 
Re: Shooting Through Brush

Excellent project. Good for your daughter. Not for nothing but you may consider submitting this report as an article to NTOA or another organization. It has great implications on hostage shots.

Thank you and her for doing this.

Jack
 
Re: Shooting Through Brush

at the recent snipers hide cup I shot at 2 different targets 2 times each through brush hoping for hits and missed both of them. should have changed positions, but got so worried over time constraints I said screw it.

targets were 4-6" size and approx 250 yards if I remember correctly with brush being in middle ish. this cost me big time in the points race. next time I guarantee I will have a clean shot.

one thing I have done in other situations is to back scope power way down until you can find a clear path. I have done this on stage 9 I believe in the Raton Wittington Center Match.

Good write up, but I think you would find more divergence with harder wood brush. who knows right??

her project next year can be going with the distance that gave largest deviation, and just alter the wood barrier type.

Regards,
DT
 
Re: Shooting Through Brush

I guess that my point is that no two pieces of brush are ever the same. Therefore, any hypothesis regarding consistent deflection would be invalid.

Please understand that I'm not trying to take anything away from your daughter's study.

It's just the fact that any data derived cannot be used as a quantative analysis.


To derive some meaningful statistical data, there has to be a control group of some type. With a wild growing plant it's impossible.
 
Re: Shooting Through Brush

Very nice! Congratulations to your daughter and to you for raising such a bright young lady.

This is something I've been interested in for a while. I've shot groups through brush before, and it really opened up the group size.
 
Re: Shooting Through Brush

Learned long time ago while coyote hunting to never try and shoot through brush! Still I catch myself thinking that this little super duper bullet will sneak through the brush and hit the coyote.

Same goes for barb wire fences! Never fails when you need the bullet to miss the fence that is when it will hit it!
whistle.gif
 
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Re: Shooting Through Brush

i like it alot. And despite the rhetorical claims about quantitative data there are huge lessons to be learned from your daughters project precisely because no "constant deflection" can be determined when shooting through brush.

good job!
 
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Re: Shooting Through Brush

Glad to hear that the project turned out so well & that your daughter was recognized for it. It's certainly good info for one to draw upon in the real world.
Thanks!
 
This is awesome info.

It would be cool to maybe see an “experiments” sections where things like this are organized and easy to access. There’s plenty for things to examine. Medium shoots alone would take up a huge chunk. I don’t know maybe there is and I haven’t seen it.
 
This is awesome info.

It would be cool to maybe see an “experiments” sections where things like this are organized and easy to access. There’s plenty for things to examine. Medium shoots alone would take up a huge chunk. I don’t know maybe there is and I haven’t seen it.

Really an 8 year old thread brought back for that response?
 
Really an 8 year old thread brought back for that response?

Yet here you are responding about nothing having to do what the thread is about. Is that really all it takes to upset you?

Hi,

You want firearm or scope as item he trying to reach 100 post for???

Sincerely,
Theis

Yep, been a member since 2012 but just making random posts to make that 100!

Jesus, anyhow, I appreciate this 8 YEAR OLD info. It might be old but it’s still good and relevant. I hadn’t seen it yet and maybe others will too.
 
very cool project, wonder where this young lady is now, 8 yrs later.
may have to recreate it when my kids start doing science projects.
 
You gonna wait around another eight years for this thread to flare up again? 😜

FWIW, a lot of us have learned that shooting through brush and hoping for a hit is a roll of the dice in a low win game of chance. That experiment DOES show that. How much? That's the nearly impossible part to quantify.
 
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No, I was reading it a bit last night and fell asleep. I found it interesting.

I've miss three deer over the years... two of them NICE due to deflected bullets from twigs and small trees. A .243 and a .270. Not shooting through brush, actually out in the open, or so I thought. But there were twigs I could not see. In two cases, I was so confident I had hit the deer that I let it walk off, figuring it would drop and not wanting to spook it into taking off. And so never even followed up.

It was a neat subject and I am surprised I missed it in 2012! I hope the girl, 8 years later, is now about to graduate engineering school somewhere! The OP is really a neat study and if not worthy of a PhD Dissertation, yet, I liked it!

Cheers,

Sirhr
 
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At a place I often shoot there’s steel at 430 yards.
From prone it’s through considerable brush(70’s level) and it consistently sends bullets in curious directions.
 
So the consensus is that I can still blame a miss on hitting a twig if I need to.

Thank you.

I have missed two deer with a 270 and 35 rem (brush buster)lol, that I found cut twigs in line of sight.

Retical will cover a decent size twig while concentrating on a distant shot.

I plan on reserving the twig defense for any future failures as long as it is not in an open field.

Good job
 
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I did that same thing. My uncle and cousin were in the bottom of the canyon and pushed a nice 4-point up into a bowl I was overlooking. Which, was the plan. Stupid me stayed on a knee instead of getting prone. My bullet hit a juniper and went right under him. F#$%, F^$*, S#!+ !
 
I have missed a few deer over the years and noticed afterwards a twig or two shot off and still hanging . Twigs and branches certainly alter the path of an arrow on a whitetail too!
Some places while in prone I have often thought of the grass that is in direct line with the bore deflecting my shot. Now I try to get above it totally but in the heat of the moment, sometimes one might not think of it.
I would like to see the difference between match bullets and say a spitzer hunting bullet to see if the hunting bullet comes unwrapped due to the interference of the brush...
 
Brush and wind are the same.

Cant really get rid of iether permanently outdoors .

Just keeps showing up for an important shot.
 
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Different, but related.

Back in the mid-90's we used to run fun handgun matches in the MCL NJ shooting program. One was the Ham Shoot.

A canned ham was suspended about 2ft off the ground on a string. Shooters would line up at 25yd and take one shot at the string. Then, they would advance a pace on command and take their next shot. Some strings would refuse to break, even though the can would jiggle a bit with the shot. Upon post firing exam, they would be found to have dark smudges in several places along their length. Invariably, these shooters would have been shooting round nose bullets. When they switched to semi-wadcutters, the problem disappeared.

It appears the round nose was actually pushing the string aside unless it encountered the nose of the bullet dead center. But the step on the SWC would snag the string and rip it. Problem identified and resolved. The only real problem was if a shooter would hit the can. It would sorta explode.

I think that results with strings, brush, and the sort are related; and that certain bullet shapes can have a bearing on the POI outcome.

Greg
 
M son and Idid a run and gun at the end of last month. Several of the targets were obscured by brush and veg from any sort of stable position. At first I was like “Shit, it’s obscured.” Then I was like “It’s a game, send it...” Piiiing! Every time. Wouldn’t do that on game, but steel? Send it...