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Shoulder pocket

Klemm

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I find that putting the butt of the rifle stock on my collarbone really helps out with recoil management while in the prone. Is this wrong. I have heard you do not want it on the collarbone, you will eventually crack your collarbone With a magnum rifle. I find if I put The butt of the rifle stock in my shoulder pocket, it is always bouncing to the left. Not so much with the heavy rifles, but especially with lighter hunting rifles. When rifle is On the collarbone the rifle recoils straight back and I am back on target after the recoil pulse.
 
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Klemm

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Yeah, I saw his videos. Just trying to make sure my fundamentals are set up properly
 

Newbie2020

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The rifle should not be bouncing to the left. Frank @lowlight and Marc @Enough Said advocate shoulder pocket. Something else is out of alignment in your position, but they’re the experts to figure out what. But you shouldn’t need to move the butt to stop the hop.
 

Klemm

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I also find the rifle is easier to set up without cant. My head is coming straight down on the cheek piece. And my head is not laying over to get a proper sight picture. I’m thinking this may have to do with my body type, I have wide shoulders. This may be why I am thinking I need to move the butt of the rifle inward. Again I really notice the rifles bouncing to the left if I am shooting a stock Remington 700 hunting rifle. This was one of the reasons why I was trying to find a new position to Stop the hop.
 

Klemm

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In one of the latest training videos, Mark says he puts the stock on his collarbone and he knows this on his collarbone because it is broken. I take that to mean it is more inboard. I could be wrong, I was wrong once before.
 

Dthomas3523

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    The “pocket” most people think of is that soft spot just inside your shoulder. You can make this work, but to illustrate here’s an exercise:

    Have someone stand in front of you and square to you. Now, put your hand in that soft shoulder pocket and push them. You should be able to fairly easily rotate their body a bit.

    Now, same setup, put your hand close to the middle of their chest on collar and push. They may move back a little. But very little rotation.

    This is what your rifle will do. If it starts to rotate you, it will escape out to the side and your muzzle will move the opposite direction.

    Get it on your collar as close to center of your body as possible while still being comfortable behind the rifle with your head as vertical as possible.
     

    Klemm

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    That is the same conclusion that I came to. Actually I found if I put the rifle into my shoulder pocket, when I pulled the rifle in I could see the crosshairs always move a little bit with the rearward-pressure. But up on the collarbone, more centerline, the movement in the crosshairs was a little to none.
     

    hereinaz

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    On the collarbone directly under my right cheek is how I run all my precision rifles when there is front support. Keeps me square to the rifle to control recoil inline.

    I practically eliminated that jump up left from poor positioning.
     
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    Klemm

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    Looks like I’m on the right track.
    This stuff can get can get into the weeds sometimes. But it is more of a lost in translation problem it seems.
     

    DunkinsDad

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    Warning this will be a dumb newb question. When placing the butt in your collarbone do you want to pull the rifle tight so it is steady or loosely hold it? I have my scope so I have to pull tight to my collar to get a good sight picture. This also allows me to stay on picture through the short, however, I am wondering if this is causing some inconsistency. If I hold it lose I lose sight picture when fired but this sounds like how to get a true natural point of aim.
     

    ShtrRdy

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    When you changed from using the shoulder pocket, to being more centered on the collarbone, did you have to adjust the position of the scope to make it work?
     

    Jscb1b

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    Warning this will be a dumb newb question. When placing the butt in your collarbone do you want to pull the rifle tight so it is steady or loosely hold it? I have my scope so I have to pull tight to my collar to get a good sight picture. This also allows me to stay on picture through the short, however, I am wondering if this is causing some inconsistency. If I hold it lose I lose sight picture when fired but this sounds like how to get a true natural point of aim.
    You should pull back into your shoulder with the same amount of weight as the right. 10 pound rifle equals 10 pounds of pressure into your shoulder.
     
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    Jscb1b

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    If you are shooting prone with a rear bag, try using your support hand to hold the stock. Use your thumb and index finger to help hold the stock.
     

    Dthomas3523

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    When you changed from using the shoulder pocket, to being more centered on the collarbone, did you have to adjust the position of the scope to make it work?

    Most have to raise rings unless they were using high or extra high already.

    I run as close to 1.5” rings as I can get (arc are 1.42”)
     
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    MTB doc

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    You won't crack your clavicle, period. Whoever told you that, make a mental note of that person so that you never listen to them again. ;)
     

    Gil P.

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    You should pull back into your shoulder with the same amount of weight as the right. 10 pound rifle equals 10 pounds of pressure into your shoulder.
    Ive heard this before and it's never made sense to me. A lighter rifle will recoil more, so shouldn't you need to pull it harder into your shoulder than a heavier rifle?

    Can you explain why you advised that?
     
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    Dthomas3523

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    Ive heard this before and it's never made sense to me. A lighter rifle will recoil more, so shouldn't you need to pull it harder into your shoulder than a heavier rifle?

    Can you explain why you advised that?

    The pull is just to keep the recoil moving straight back. Therefore the amount of rearward pressure needed is not linear with recoil.

    The example of how much to pull being equal to weight of the rifle is mainly because people always ask and want an answer that isn’t “you’ll have to experiment.” This gives them a starting point.

    You also don’t want to be pushing or pulling the rifle enough to be moving it around. Pulling harder on a light rifle will move it around before recoil. A heavier rifle won’t move as easy.

    Think of the pull as guiding the path. If you pull more than it weighs, you are not guiding it anymore. You’re now doing much more than needed.
     
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    Gil P.

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    The pull is just to keep the recoil moving straight back. Therefore the amount of rearward pressure needed is not linear with recoil.

    The example of how much to pull being equal to weight of the rifle is mainly because people always ask and want an answer that isn’t “you’ll have to experiment.” This gives them a starting point.

    You also don’t want to be pushing or pulling the rifle enough to be moving it around. Pulling harder on a light rifle will move it around before recoil. A heavier rifle won’t move as easy.

    Think of the pull as guiding the path. If you pull more than it weighs, you are not guiding it anymore. You’re now doing much more than needed.

    So then with any caliber or rifle or any weight, what matters is that the rifle recoils straight back and is kept under control. How hard you pull the rifle into your should only depend on those two factors. Would you pull a 25lb 6br into your shoulder with 25 pounds of pressure or is that overkill? It sounds like it's just a matter of practice like you said.

    I get that it gives people a starting point, but you don't think it does more harm than good to make that blanket statement? The other member I quoted made that statement, but I don't think he understood what he was talking about.
     
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    Dthomas3523

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    So then with any caliber or rifle or any weight, what matters is that the rifle recoils straight back and is kept under control. How hard you pull the rifle into your should only depend on those two factors. Would you pull a 25lb 6br into your shoulder with 25 pounds of pressure or is that overkill? It sounds like it's just a matter of practice like you said.

    I get that it gives people a starting point, but you don't think it does more harm than good to make that blanket statement? The other member I quoted made that statement, but I don't think he understood what he was talking about.

    No it doesn’t. As the 25lb rifle isn’t going to move with 25lbs of rearward pressure. Not to mention, people won’t know if they are pulling 10lbs or 25lbs as we aren’t working with calibrated instruments. They will just feel the rifle and them start there and adjust. Also, this rule was out in place before people started using rifles that are grossly overweight for anything practical. You can’t take practical rules of thumb and then attack them with gamer tactics that live in a different environment.

    People kept asking, so they get a rule of thumb answer. It doesn’t do any harm as its a starting point. As will all things, logic must be imparted by the shooter.

    You’re overthinking a simple starting point rule.
     
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    cgobeli

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    So I have been trying to move my rifle more towards center, even though it feels weird. Is anyone else having trouble getting their face comfortable on the gun?
     

    Dthomas3523

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    So I have been trying to move my rifle more towards center, even though it feels weird. Is anyone else having trouble getting their face comfortable on the gun?

    Higher rings are likely needed.
     

    Newbie2020

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    The more or closer I can keep my head vertical the more relaxed my neck is and the better I shoot
     

    Newbie2020

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    Higher rings are likely needed.

    The higher rings has worked wonders for me getting comfortable over the rifle. Even though it’s counter to what we’ve been preached for 40 years to get as low as possible. Maybe our understanding of what’s “best” actually evolves over time?.....
     

    cgobeli

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    Originally my rings were too high and I could not keep my cheek bone on the stock, so I bought lower rings (I am always buying stuff that I end up not using). So it sounds like I just need to experiment more and see what is comfortable, as soon as I put my rifle back together.
     

    Dthomas3523

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    The higher rings has worked wonders for me getting comfortable over the rifle. Even though it’s counter to what we’ve been preached for 40 years to get as low as possible. Maybe our understanding of what’s “best” actually evolves over time?.....

    Get higher rings and clean your barrel often. Oh the agony!
     

    Newbie2020

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    Same here, so I added height to my cheek rest. Made a huge difference. Frank @lowlight is really big on NOT having your head tilted way over to get your eye into the eye box.
     

    Dthomas3523

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    Originally my rings were too high and I could not keep my cheek bone on the stock, so I bought lower rings (I am always buying stuff that I end up not using). So it sounds like I just need to experiment more and see what is comfortable, as soon as I put my rifle back together.

    Keep in mind, when we do something “wrong” for quite a while, that becomes comfortable and feels right.

    So, when we first change or correct something, many times it will feel uncomfortable. That doesn’t mean it’s not going to work. Many times it means we are on the right path.

    For example, a few years ago I was experiencing upper back pain. No one could figure it out. One night I awoke and noticed my chin was tucked down near my chest. So, I consciously starting making sure my chin was up and basically “looking forward” with my head while laying on my side. Well, I knew my head was looking forward, but it *felt* like I was looking up at the sky. I had become comfortable with a sleeping position that wasn’t good and a normal position felt extreme. Eventually the normal felt normal and the pain went away.

    Point being, analyze your position and if you know it’s correct, work with it until the feeling is comfortable. Far too many people don’t get any better because they don’t work outside their literal comfort level.
     

    Newbie2020

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    I like a firm cheek weld and index firmly on the base of my cheek bone, because that feels like I can do that repeatably. But I read on here somewhere that’s not essential.
     

    Newbie2020

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    I got huge benefit from taking Frank’s class. He hammers Good comfortable body position as part of the fundamentals. I think Marc @Enough Said Taylor does also. I highly recommend it.
     

    cgobeli

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    Thank you @Dthomas3523, I will have to play with it tonight.

    I am spending way too much time trying to get a proper cheek weld on my stapler to see where a butt stock would theoretically line up .
     

    Gil P.

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    No it doesn’t. As the 25lb rifle isn’t going to move with 25lbs of rearward pressure. Not to mention, people won’t know if they are pulling 10lbs or 25lbs as we aren’t working with calibrated instruments. They will just feel the rifle and them start there and adjust. Also, this rule was out in place before people started using rifles that are grossly overweight for anything practical. You can’t take practical rules of thumb and then attack them with gamer tactics that live in a different environment.

    People kept asking, so they get a rule of thumb answer. It doesn’t do any harm as its a starting point. As will all things, logic must be imparted by the shooter.

    You’re overthinking a simple starting point rule.

    I get that I'm over thinking this, bear with me because I want to learn.

    I'm my opinion this starting point rule isn't very helpful. It doesn't apply to all situations, and like you said, it's impossible to measure.

    I like to be taught the mechanics and the why I'm being told to do something. I've always felt that rules of thumb are just a cop out for not wanting to take the time and explain something. It's like when people tell you that the reason you missed a shot is because you were "anticipating".
     

    Gil P.

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    I like a firm cheek weld and index firmly on the base of my cheek bone, because that feels like I can do that repeatably. But I read on here somewhere that’s not essential.

    What did you learn about cheek weld pressure from Frank's class?

    Ive been experimenting a little bit with the same thing. I used to use a heavy cheek weld with the stock under my cheek bone.

    I lowered my cheek piece a little bit to reduce the pressure im putting on the stock. The heavy cheek pressure was messing with my rear bag too much and under recoil, my head was pushing the rear of the stock to the right.

    I'm wondering if I'm letting go of the stock under recoil without realizing it.
     

    308pirate

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    I get that I'm over thinking this, bear with me because I want to learn.

    I'm my opinion this starting point rule isn't very helpful. It doesn't apply to all situations, and like you said, it's impossible to measure.

    I like to be taught the mechanics and the why I'm being told to do something. I've always felt that rules of thumb are just a cop out for not wanting to take the time and explain something. It's like when people tell you that the reason you missed a shot is because you were "anticipating".
    Not everything in shooting can be objectively defined and measured.

    Just like reading the wind, building your position is something you need to figure out for yourself based on a few rules of thumb.

    The sooner you accept that, the sooner you will make progress because you'll stop wasting time on dead ends.
     

    cgobeli

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    So I went home the other night and started messing around with my rifle to see where it currently sits. As it turns out I am not as far off as I thought I was, I am between the shoulder pocket and where everyone seems to say we should be. Now that I am aware of it, I can work towards getting it to move over just that little bit extra.