Shoulder Setback and Die Bottoming Out on Press

[Phil3]

I am new to reloading, shoot an AR15 in 223 Remington, and have a question regarding shoulder setback and the Redding full length sizing die bottoming out on my Forster C-Ax press shellholder jaws.

Using some Sinclair tools, the average length of fired cases is 1.277". The actual measurement is not relevant...it is odd because of the attachments on the measuring calipers. I carefully adjusted the die downwards a bit at a time, measuring the case until it measured 1.274", so as to give about .003" clearance between the shoulder and the chamber.

I found that to achieve the 1.274" dimension the die was bottomed out on the press shell holder jaws. It would not be possible to push the shoulder back any more since you can not screw the die down any further. This seems very odd to me. What if the rifle had fired shells that were 1.273"? Trying to set the shoulder back to 1.270" (.003" clearance), would be impossible.

All this seems to indicate a very tight chamber, and perhaps it is. It is a Krieger barrel chambered in 223 Remington, not 5.56.

Please educate me on what I may be missing here.

 

[MinorDamage]

Re: Shoulder Setback and Die Bottoming Out on Press

Should be fine. The die is reamed to SAAMI spec. Unless you have a short (incorrectly) reamed chamber the brass should always be a bit longer than SAAMI spec. Also, I never bump the shoulder back more than .002". That will ensure that the entire case gets resized and will chamber without issue in your semi. You should look up the SAAMI dimensions for the .223 case and figure out what all the dimensions should be and go from there. Sounds like everything is working as it should. Don't overthink it.

Josh

 

[ChadTRG42]

Re: Shoulder Setback and Die Bottoming Out on Press

You are properly full length resizing the case when you bottom out the die on the shell holder. This is the only way I would do it on anything semi-auto.

 

[ChrisGarrett]

Re: Shoulder Setback and Die Bottoming Out on Press

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phil3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am new to reloading, shoot an AR15 in 223 Remington, and have a question regarding shoulder setback and the Redding full length sizing die bottoming out on my Forster C-Ax press shellholder jaws.

Using some Sinclair tools, the average length of fired cases is 1.277". The actual measurement is not relevant...it is odd because of the attachments on the measuring calipers. I carefully adjusted the die downwards a bit at a time, measuring the case until it measured 1.274", so as to give about .003" clearance between the shoulder and the chamber.

I found that to achieve the 1.274" dimension the die was bottomed out on the press shell holder jaws. It would not be possible to push the shoulder back any more since you can not screw the die down any further. This seems very odd to me. What if the rifle had fired shells that were 1.273"? Trying to set the shoulder back to 1.270" (.003" clearance), would be impossible.

All this seems to indicate a very tight chamber, and perhaps it is. It is a Krieger barrel chambered in 223 Remington, not 5.56.

Please educate me on what I may be missing here. </div></div>

This when you whip out your handy Dremel tool, or sharpening hone and take off .003" from the bottom of your sizing die.

Ask me how I know.

Chris

 

[Innovative]

Re: Shoulder Setback and Die Bottoming Out on Press

Phil3 ......

I am a beliver in FL resizing all my handloads. I always verify the "exact" height setting of my sizing dies by comparing my handloads to one of my fired cases (at the shoulder).

There's no more accurate way, and there's no need to make things more complicated by learning specific case measurements. Those measurements are only useful <span style="font-weight: bold">IF</span> you <span style="text-decoration: underline">also</span> know the measurement of your particular chamber. I use the <span style="text-decoration: underline">Digital Headspace Gauge</span> to help set my die height perfectly.

All FL dies are designed to make handloads fit in the tightest chamber in a given caliber. Production chambers are always made to accept even the largest factory loads. I've found (many times) that resizing dies are not always performing exactly as the reloader thinks. The Digital Headspace Gauge quickly removes all doubt.

- Larry

 

[ChrisGarrett]

Re: Shoulder Setback and Die Bottoming Out on Press

Larry,

I think that he's commenting on the fact that some dies, in combination with some shell holders/plates, don't allow for much shoulder bump, relative to other combos, before the die bottoms out. There is just a myriad of choices and components out there, to get it right for every combination, everytime.

I ran into this on my Dillon 550b last month, when I got a new 223 SB body die. I just couldn't get the shoulders back quite enough and I use the Stoney Point/Hornady headspace gages. Instead of grinding down 4 places on my shellplate, I decided to take .003" off the bottom of the die and problem solved.

Redding had some issues with some earlier production runs of 338LM sizing dies, where people were having trouble with shoulder bumps and bottoming out on a particular press/shell holder.

It happens.

Chris

 

[gcoulsey]

Re: Shoulder Setback and Die Bottoming Out on Pres

I think redding also make some special shellholders of different heights, so by swapping out the shellholder you can adjust shoulder bump.

They could be called 'competition shellholders' or something like that?

Might be an alternative to grinding the bottom off the die.. ??

Found them here..

http://www.redding-reloading.com/online-catalog/35-competition-shellholder-sets

 

[gunsnjeeps]

Re: Shoulder Setback and Die Bottoming Out on Pres

For an AR platform, factory sizing dies are sufficient. The Redding Shell Holders are used to fit a specific chamber for bolt guns. The die bottoms out on the shell holder, it's supposed to.

 

[ChrisGarrett]

Re: Shoulder Setback and Die Bottoming Out on Pres

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gfunkUK</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think redding also make some special shellholders of different heights, so by swapping out the shellholder you can adjust shoulder bump.

They could be called 'competition shellholders' or something like that?

Might be an alternative to grinding the bottom off the die.. ??

Found them here..

http://www.redding-reloading.com/online-catalog/35-competition-shellholder-sets </div></div>

They do 'lift' the case, within the shellholder up, in varying degrees, so one doesn't have to adjust a sizing die up or down. What they don't do, as I understand things as they are, is address the height of that top collar portion of said shellholder, which comes into contact with the bottom of the die, acting as a 'die stop'.

One would still need to file that portion down, to achieve the same results as they would get if they filed down the bottom of the die itself.

Here's the better question. Why do die makers design their sizing die bodies to 'just fit' or 'just not fit' for shoulder bumps, when they have plenty of leeway, vis-a-vis the case rim and extractor grooves, to play with?

The case, after/below the web area, is free territory to play with, yet they discount this large area (insignificant for sizing a case body, to spec) and cut their dies at such a length to cause potential sizing issues.

My thought on the matter is, is that if they did 'shorten' their die bodies, this would open up the reloader to 'over-sizing' that case, shrinking it down, thereby creating excessive headspace and leading to premature case head separation.

Their thinking, I gather, is to err on the side of caution and cause a case to NOT chamber as an end result, rather than chamber with too much room behind the head, allowing that case to stretch to the point of failure.

It's all about liability, but in some situations, we're screwed...hence the modification of removing some metal from the die's bottom to get things to work, which is the easier solution via ease in accomplishing this task in a consistent and uniform fashion.

Chris

 

[gcoulsey]

Re: Shoulder Setback and Die Bottoming Out on Pres

"They do 'lift' the case, within the shellholder up, in varying degrees, so one doesn't have to adjust a sizing die up or down. What they don't do, as I understand things as they are, is address the height of that top collar portion of said shellholder, which comes into contact with the bottom of the die, acting as a 'die stop'."

but if the case is 'lifted' higher within the shellholder, (as if it were shimmed up to remove any slack) then surely this allows more case into the die, therefore more shoulder bump?

The contact point of the shellholder and die stays the same in each instance, but the case height is altered.

Maybe I'm mistaken how they work, I have never actually handled one, I just figured that's how they might help

 

[ChrisGarrett]

Re: Shoulder Setback and Die Bottoming Out on Pres

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gfunkUK</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"They do 'lift' the case, within the shellholder up, in varying degrees, so one doesn't have to adjust a sizing die up or down. What they don't do, as I understand things as they are, is address the height of that top collar portion of said shellholder, which comes into contact with the bottom of the die, acting as a 'die stop'."

but if the case is 'lifted' higher within the shellholder, (as if it were shimmed up to remove any slack) then surely this allows more case into the die, therefore more shoulder bump?

The contact point of the shellholder and die stays the same in each instance, but the case height is altered.

Maybe I'm mistaken how they work, I have never actually handled one, I just figured that's how they might help

</div></div>

If you have a shellholder that 'lifts' the case, you will force the shoulder up, into the die more and consequently, bump that shoulder back down further. The problem you have is, is that the top part, or collar of the SH may, or may not be thinner (less tall) in height/thickness and will still prevent that die from bumping the case shoulder back down.

I've not measured the Redding competition shellholders, but I'm guessing that that top part isn't made any shorter/thinner, from holder to holder, so the die will still 'bottom' out at the same height/position. This de facto 'die stop' is what limits how much of the shoulder can be pushed back down for any given press combo.

Chris

 

[chipdog4]

Re: Shoulder Setback and Die Bottoming Out on Pres

The Redding Shelholders have more material on top of the shellholder, not what you need if a standard shelholder won't resize enough.

They are + .002, .004, .006, .008, .010 in addition to the .125 shellholder height.
They are perfect for resizing your brass back just enough to chamber easily without adjusting the die. Great if you load for multiple guns in the same caliber.

Also, since the shellholder is much cheaper than a die, take a grinder to the shellholder if you need to size more.

 

[jet_lagged]

Re: Shoulder Setback and Die Bottoming Out on Pres

Was going to post a question, then I saw this thread.

I just encountered the same problem while trying to size .308 tonight using Hornady dies against the Dillon 550 shellplate. With the die bottoming out on the shellplate, it will only size to MAX body size, not down to min size. I really don't want to bump things back that much, all the way to min, but the ability to do so would be nice, or chose a mid-point for the gas gun when the chamber gets dirty, which was my plan.

But the Dillon dies for .223 will let you size the body shorter than min, if screwed all the way down to the shellplate. So perhaps a different view on liability?

How hard is it to neatly file off .003 of hardened for those of us without a milling machine????