Sizing Die for each Rifle?

[Modoc]

I am hitting a quandary, I have two rifles in the same caliber, one with a SAMMI Minimum chamber and one with a generous but still in spec. chamber. Is it better to re-size ALL of my brass for the tight chamber? Or should I get separate sizing dies for each rifle?

At the moment, I am full length resizing for the tighter chamber and can really feel the difernce between the two when re-sizing some loads that were near the Maximum.

Both rifles are 22-250's, the Sako is a Lightweight walking varmiter and the Mauser is a heavy barrel with a thumb-hole target stock. If I go with the two dies, I would also be dedicating brass by brand for each rifle.

Thanks for the help,

 

[roggom]

Re: Sizing Die for each Rifle?

Either two dies or get a RCBS mic and adjust for each rifle. If not that long chamber is going to end up stretching your brass and may lead to early case separation. Considering you can only shoot one rifle at a time, I would just use the same brand brass for both, just keep them in separate boxes. That is unless the loads are really that different. You could always use WLR primers in one and CCI in the other, this way you can tell them apart. I have just seen a bigger variance with brass change than primer change.

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: Sizing Die for each Rifle?

Never, ever keep using brass bewteen two rifles. After the second firing the brass needs to stay with that rifle! You'll end up with incipient case head separation. As you described the difference in the chamber sizes is going to give you incipient case head separation in very short order if you swap brass between rifles.

What I do is load as much for each rifle as I can and reset it each time I change rifles.

If you shoot each rifle a fair amount it may be worth it to you to spend the $30 or so bucks to get the second set of dies and leave your match set adjusted for the match/target rifle. In some cases I find it easier to do this. I have one set of 7x57, but two sets of 25 WSSM, 30-06, .223/5'56, .308 and .243 (I have two or more rifles of each)

 

[aam]

Re: Sizing Die for each Rifle?

Modoc,

I use the same die for, four different rifles…… BUT…..I have four batches of brass, all segregated for the different rifles. When buying new brass I measure the case (off the shoulder) and write down the measurement.

When I finish shooting, I measure the fired brass for that particular rifle and record it. It’s just a simple matter of bumping the shoulders back for that particular rifle.

Also what sandwarrior said, DON’T resize all your brass for the tight spec chamber then use it for the generous chamber rifle, eventually you will get head separation.

I use this. http://www.sinclairintl.com/.aspx/pid=35265/Product/Sinclair-Bump-Gage-Insert

Hope this helps.

 

[Temp9]

Re: Sizing Die for each Rifle?

I agree on using a bump gauge. Bump each rifle's cases .001-.002" back and keep brass segregated. A single die will do the job just fine as long as you don't mind adjusting it.

 

[Fuzzball]

Re: Sizing Die for each Rifle?

If you find it difficult or time consuming to adjust a sizer or seater then by all means get more of them.

"Incepient head seperation" is harmless, it's the real thing that causes trouble.

 

[jdmartin]

Re: Sizing Die for each Rifle?

I have three 6 Dasher barrels. They are all fairly close in tolerances, but what I did was mark the threads of the full length die with a magic marker and then keep notes on which was long or short. I measure the shoulder to confirm the adjustment but it seems to work. I use Hornady's locking rings on the dies so the cut in the ring makes a good reference point.

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: Sizing Die for each Rifle?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fuzzball</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> If you find it difficult or time consuming to adjust a sizer or seater then by all means get more of them.

<span style="font-weight: bold">"Incepient head seperation" is harmless, it's the real thing that causes trouble.</span></div></div>

Yes, that too! I have the powder burns on my face to prove it...Don't swap cases between rifles!

 

[BuzzBoss915]

Re: Sizing Die for each Rifle?

Good advice thus far.

Buy distinctive brass and primers and even bullets and if you decide to use different dies, nothing wrong with that, either. But do not use the cases in both rifles. You should treat them as if they are different calibers, and they kind of, are.

I have that situation with two 6MM Remingtons and that's what I do. Everything, every component is different because I use one at night, a heavy Varminter and the other is a lighter daytime gun. But, I <span style="text-decoration: underline">might</span> still have ammo in one pocket and that's where the visual I.D. comes in. Anything you can do to maintain the distinction is of benefit.
BB

 

[ksthomas]

Re: Sizing Die for each Rifle?

Okay, I'm going to be the odd man out here, but sometimes that "mixing cases between rifles" situation is unavoidable. I'm a competitive shooter. I shoot High Power Service Rifle and have at least five (5) competitive guns in rotation at any given time. I normally run a primary rifle, a back up rifle, one gun designated for Infantry Trophy (but it may be pushed into Across the Course duty, or serve as a lonaer if a team mates gun goes down) and at least one or two others that are in various stages of rebarrelling or rebuilding. I load in rather large quantities, rarely loading in lots smaller than 1,000 rounds at a whack. Frequently, the batches are a lot larger. All of these rifles use Wylde chambers, minimum specs, and are chambered by very competent smiths. My ammo has to work flawlessly in any, and all of these rifles. The answer here is pretty simple; use gages, and keep notes. Same thing will work for most any other type or caliber of rifle, but it does require the shooter to take some time and document his loading procedures. It's worth the time, and is a lot less friustrating that having four different lots of ammo that can't be interchanged between four different rifles of the same caliber. I do have some that need to be kept separate, but that has more to do with the nature of the rifles themselves (twist rate, etc.) than the chamber dimensions. My tactical 308 and my 308 Palma gun would be an example of this. The cases, however, could be used in either. Like I said, life's just simpler that way.

 

[BuzzBoss915]

Re: Sizing Die for each Rifle?

I don't see anything odd about that, you state your case very well. I, on the other hand have never loaded more than 100 at the same time, different strokes. BB

 

[eclipse57]

Re: Sizing Die for each Rifle?

So if you are going with different dies for sizing, are you also going to go with different seating dies?

I have also thought about doing this. Maybe a couple of .000 (thousandseths) difference in the chamber when seating also.

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: Sizing Die for each Rifle?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eclipse57</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So if you are going with different dies for sizing, are you also going to go with different seating dies?

I have also thought about doing this. Maybe a couple of .000 (thousandseths) difference in the chamber when seating also.</div></div>

Yes, you have to set the die depth and the seating depth according to each rifle's brass.

Kevin Thomas,

In your case where you have a knowledgeable smith doing the three rifles as close he can you are limiting but not avoiding the possibility of case head separation. No doubt it helps if he is using the same reamer. And, really helping a lot if he can do more than one barrel/rifle at a time for you.

Otherwise, I stand by my position regarding this issue. I'm not joking about getting powder burns on my face going from one rifle to another with the same set of cases.

 

[9H_Cracka]

Re: Sizing Die for each Rifle?

One reamer, one smith, one headspace dimension - ONE DIE and ONE DIE SETTING.

Stay after school and write it on the chalk board 100 times.

No gas in my face over 3 different chamberings and 10 barrels across the three. Your smith sucks ___________(fill in the blank) and/or you don't know how to reload.

I remember an article Kevin did over a decade ago on moly versus naked. Had Douglas make him an extra long barrel, then he cut it in half and chambered it up for two of Sierra's test actions. He then did side-side testing - accuracy, cleaning, bore scoping, and if I recall correctly, sectioning and taking photos after 4,000 rounds of identical ammo down them.

And you want to argue with him? GOOD LUCK.

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: Sizing Die for each Rifle?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _9H_Cracka</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One reamer, one smith, one headspace dimension - ONE DIE and ONE DIE SETTING.

Stay after school and write it on the chalk board 100 times.

No gas in my face over 3 different chamberings and 10 barrels across the three. Your smith sucks ___________(fill in the blank) and/or you don't know how to reload.

I remember an article Kevin did over a decade ago on moly versus naked. Had Douglas make him an extra long barrel, then he cut it in half and chambered it up for two of Sierra's test actions. He then did side-side testing - accuracy, cleaning, bore scoping, and if I recall correctly, sectioning and taking photos after 4,000 rounds of identical ammo down them.

And you want to argue with him? GOOD LUCK.</div></div>

I don't know if your post is addressing me or someone else. However, 99.9% of the time gunsmiths do not chamber multiple barrels for the same customer at the same time for two 'very like' rifles. Most times we pick up different rifles at different time periods that have no way to have their chambers matched.
In my last post I noted, matching chambers helps a lot as far as not causing incipient case head separation. Again, though most of us never get identically matched chambers. So, I still feel that mixing brass between rifles is a mistake.

 

[ksthomas]

Re: Sizing Die for each Rifle?

Sandwarrior,

It wasn't an option for me anyway, as at any given time I probably had 20 different rifles chambered for 308s, and a similar number for 223s. Several other calibers as well. I was routinely putting 400-600 rounds a day through these guns, six days a week. Trying to keep cases isolated by lots to specific rifles was a practical impossibility for me. Several of these 308s used different chambers (Palma, M852, Obermeyer, etc.), and the brass had to be prepped and ready to use in anything that was required for testing. This is where the gages came in, and why I'm so adamant in using them. In rifles that are chambered properly, so long as you're paying attention to the gages, you won't have any problems. The cases were perfectly interchangable between all these rifles, never had a problem and often had cases go 20-25 firings (sometimes more) before they had to be tossed.

As for my own reloading, it's more like five competition guns (minimum) that I have in rotation at any given time. The ammo I load has to work interchangeably in any of them, without so much as a hiccup, ever. I've had rifles chambered (in no particular order) by Derrick Martin of Accuracy Speaks, John Holliger of White Oak Precision, Frank White of Compass Lake and Steve Satern of Satern Custom. They all gage within .001"-.002" of one another, even done with different reamers and at different times. Again, it just comes down to knowing what the gage readings are, and keeping track of them. If you're got a different situation that allows (or even requires) you to use brass isolated to just one gun, that's fine. I've had that also, in the form of a 338/06 I had done many years back. It had what the gages would have termed excessive headspace. Not a problem, in that I was aware of it, was able to adjust (fireform) the cases out to fill the chamber, and didn't set the shoulder back more than .002" from that point on. No excessive headspace that way, and no problems. The cartridge was still a wildcat at that time, so there technically was no headspace specification/measurement that was "correct." HAd I been loading for another 338/06 with a shorter chamber, yes, I would have kept the brass separate. All depends on what you're doing, but just trust the gages and they'll save you from a lot of headaches.

 

[Deadshot2]

Re: Sizing Die for each Rifle?

I would go with sizing the brass for each rifle and keeping it separate. To go the inexpensive route, just set up the die for the shortest chamber and then get a set of die shims.

Article on Die Shims

Then when changing to the longer chamber, just insert a shim under the die lock nut. Same change every time without loosening the lock ring set screw. Quick change and you can adjust in precise .001" increments.

 

[leadbullet]

Re: Sizing Die for each Rifle?

segregate your brass per rifle, not dies.

 

[fw707]

Re: Sizing Die for each Rifle?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Modoc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am hitting a quandary, I have two rifles in the same caliber, one with a SAMMI Minimum chamber and one with a generous but still in spec. chamber. Is it better to re-size ALL of my brass for the tight chamber? Or should I get separate sizing dies for each rifle?
</div></div>

I use separate sizing and seating dies for 2 different .260 caliber rifles.
It's not that much of an added expense since it's only for 2 guns.
I tried the re-adjusting and it was more of a pain in the a$$ than I wanted to deal with every time I wanted to load up some bullets.

 

[Unknown]

Re: Sizing Die for each Rifle?

I had the same issue with a pair of semi-auto 6.5 Grendels. The brass was being worked much harder than I wanted, so eventually I sent both rifles off to have the chambers matched up. Sure, it cost money, but at around .60 to $1.00 per case, I could quickly loose more than what I paid to have the chambers matched up in brass.

The smith that did the work came really close...I have only about one to one and a half thousandths difference between the two rifles. I can get that much based on how many times each case has been fired, and therefore hardened a little more or less than another case.

 

[Short Round]

Re: Sizing Die for each Rifle?

Well I would segregate cases to the rifles anyhow, that's just good house keeping. I even do it on my .260's that were made at the same time; both FN SPR actions, both cut with the same reamer on rock creek barrels, one varmint contour and one sporter weight. Internally they're the same except the varmint weight is 26", 2 inches longer. I can't tell my brass apart by measuring is how close my smith made them.

Another way out similar to the die shim is Redding's match shell holder sets. The go from 0.002 to 0.010" over standard shell holder length in 0.002" increments. Would work on any press using standard shell holder.

IIRC each set costs about $30. I have them for .223 #10 and .308 #1 sizes (also .22-250, .30-06, .7mm-08,.260 Fk most of my die sets except 7.5 swiss, .30 carbine and a couple other foreigners.)

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: Sizing Die for each Rifle?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kevin Thomas</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sandwarrior,

It wasn't an option for me anyway, as at any given time I probably had 20 different rifles chambered for 308s, and a similar number for 223s. Several other calibers as well. I was routinely putting 400-600 rounds a day through these guns, six days a week. Trying to keep cases isolated by lots to specific rifles was a practical impossibility for me. Several of these 308s used different chambers (Palma, M852, Obermeyer, etc.), and the brass had to be prepped and ready to use in anything that was required for testing. This is where the gages came in, and why I'm so adamant in using them. In rifles that are chambered properly, so long as you're paying attention to the gages, you won't have any problems. The cases were perfectly interchangable between all these rifles, never had a problem and often had cases go 20-25 firings (sometimes more) before they had to be tossed.

As for my own reloading, it's more like five competition guns (minimum) that I have in rotation at any given time. The ammo I load has to work interchangeably in any of them, without so much as a hiccup, ever. I've had rifles chambered (in no particular order) by Derrick Martin of Accuracy Speaks, John Holliger of White Oak Precision, Frank White of Compass Lake and Steve Satern of Satern Custom. They all gage within .001"-.002" of one another, even done with different reamers and at different times. Again, it just comes down to knowing what the gage readings are, and keeping track of them. If you're got a different situation that allows (or even requires) you to use brass isolated to just one gun, that's fine. I've had that also, in the form of a 338/06 I had done many years back. It had what the gages would have termed excessive headspace. Not a problem, in that I was aware of it, was able to adjust (fireform) the cases out to fill the chamber, and didn't set the shoulder back more than .002" from that point on. No excessive headspace that way, and no problems. The cartridge was still a wildcat at that time, so there technically was no headspace specification/measurement that was "correct." HAd I been loading for another 338/06 with a shorter chamber, yes, I would have kept the brass separate. All depends on what you're doing, but just trust the gages and they'll save you from a lot of headaches. </div></div>

That makes sense, with what you've got to deal with. Even with the gauges the cambers have got to be super close or you'll get work hardening of the brass. But, like you've shown, if they are seriously matched up, then it can be done.

FWIW, the one that gave me powder burns was my 7x57's, chambered fifty years apart. I used my match brass for hunting loads and back again. Of all places for it to happen, at a match. Sitting there and feeling stupid because your match friends watched it happen. ...I suggested I pull the rest of the ammo and not finish the match. Literally ~saving face~.

I use minimum sizing to the chamber. So each time I reload, I size the cases down to the chamber and that's it.

Someday, when money and life allows, I may get two or more matched chambered rifles.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Sizing Die for each Rifle?

Building ammo to a standard spec makes best sense to me. This does not demand separate equipment or brass.

I believe that the important data relates to how many times a piece of brass has been reprocessed/worked, because this determines factors like primer pocket expansion and neck hardness.

Reloading allows issues like charge and seating depth consistency to be better maintained, and I believe these factors far outweigh things like differences in expanded case dimensions prior to reprocessing.

Yes, everything makes a difference; but some are smaller by proportion and tend to diaappaer in the midst of myriad other factors that are not under anyone's control.

The important factors are those that must A) stand out, and B) are actually controllable, before they demand our concentrated attention.

This stuff, this obsession with perfection, comes up each year about this time. For me, it indicates an accumulated dissatisfaction as the shooting season progresses. It is understandable, and I have grown to to expect it this time each year.

There is an answer, the same one each year. It is about priorities and confidence. A good idea is always going to be good. What was important at the beginning of the season is just as important now, regardless of our own disappointment or doubt. Trust the basics, stay the course, keep your eye on the prize, don't overthink the strategy, and forget about reinventing things. Horses are best when left unchanged in midstream.

The mechanics of the process are actually quite easy, and don't change. <span style="font-style: italic">We</span> are the only actually inconsistent components in the equation.

Greg

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: Sizing Die for each Rifle?

Greg,

I'll agree building ammo to a standard spec is a good thing. But, the chambers in the rifles have to built to a very standard spec as well in order to reload. Not to a SAAMI spec that allows too much play between chambers to reload cases in different rifles multiple times. Most 'Re-manned' ammunition is once fired, not more. It's a liability not many commercial loaders are willing to accept.

I will say that as far as customizing the round to the chamber, it carries <span style="text-decoration: underline">far less</span> weight than the continued safety of shooting cases that might come apart. Standards today are much better than standards of even just past ten years ago. But, you can't take rifles from company A and company B and cross use brass between them without exposing yourself to more danger. In Kevin Thomas' case, the rifles are carefully matched to minimize the problem. And, his brass is controlled within that group of rifles.

The inspection process to find potential case separation is tedious. But, I've found with it, not so much number of times the brass gets resized, but how much it gets resized and what part gets resized the most. That specifically has to do with the range of standard chambers allowed under SAAMI. It's also why some brass goes 30 loadings and a lot of brass goes less than ten.

FWIW, I quite happy with my shooting as of late. Taking a .223 out to 1k 'all hold' with first round hits @ each 100 yd. increment, first round hits @ 500 and 1k with open sights. Tight groups @ 1k with my rifles intended for that range.

Life is good that way.

 

[Modoc]

Re: Sizing Die for each Rifle?

Gentlemen,

Thank You for all of the input on this. I will be simplifying this for the moment by putting the Heavy rifle aside for a while and just focusing on the light rifle with Remington Brass. The stiff case sizing may have been caused by other reasons, because I had some primers come out that showed some significant flattening (Flat topped mushrooms).


By the way, the discussion has been good reading and interesting to see other people's needs and methods.

Thank You,