SMK 175 + Varget Load Work-Up

[schwim]

Liking the 175s with Varget better so far than my other work-up using L155s with 8208XBR. I'm able to get the ogive just touching the lands and easily fit in the mag with room to spare (AICS). Question is, where do I go from the below initial work-up.

New Lapua brass and really interested in what will happen with the fireformed brass, which on my measurements have 2.1 grains more water capacity. With the 2.1 extra case volume, the computer tells me that I could go up to 46.5 gr instead of 45.2 Varget, both at about 60,000 psi (fireformed versus new brass).

Thanks for any input.

 

[killer_penguin]

Re: SMK 175 + Varget Load Work-Up

My only input would be that you need to scrap the 100yd 3-shot groups. It's usefulness is very limited and doesn't tell you much.

Extend the range to 300yds. Clean your rifle. Load 8 cartridges in half grain increments from 41.5 - 46gr. Load 5 - 10rnds at 41.5, and use them to zero your rifle at 300yds and settle your rifle down after the cleaning.

41.5
42
42.5
43
43.5
44
44.5
45

Fire each shot through a chronograph and record the impact of each round. You'll find some that group together horizontally. This is where you should start your work. You can fine tune the test as much as you want changing primers, seating depth, charge weight.

If your intent is to shoot long range, then one ragged hole at 100yds does not matter nearly so much as tight repeatable shots at distance.

Google: Ladder test

In regard to 1x fired vs virgin. I work a load or at the very least CHECK the load with each firing of the brass. Real world data trumps a computer model every day of the week and twice on sunday.

 

[Goldbeachman]

Re: SMK 175 + Varget Load Work-Up

I don't mean to be too critical but how can you determine anything from this form of 3 round group ladder testing? The 44.2 gr. group of course "looks" the best, but, that was probably bound to happen in 14 3 shot groups of any powder.

Here is a link to TresMon's thread on powder charge workup that captures some of the issues in this area. Powder/Ladder Link

Others will undoubtedly chime in and I could be all wet but I just couldn't draw any solid conclusions from this really. I would run a ladder test or ocw ladder to determine what appears to be an accuracy node(s) and then proceed to seating depth testing.

Good luck, let us know how the rest of it goes.

 

[One-Eyed Jack]

Re: SMK 175 + Varget Load Work-Up

What can you learn? For one, you can look at the groupings on either side of a potential accuracy node. If they are stable too(well grouped, no fliers), then the potential stability of that node is enhanced.

When you're starting out, there's nothing wrong with three-shot groups. Five-shot groups are important in the next round though, when you try a smaller number of loads.

I see the above testing as an initial survey and a good start.

Where to go from here? Some suggestions:

* Chronograph some of these loads to see what muzzle velocity you have. If you're going to shoot 1000 yards it will be important to have enough MV on those 175s (presumably 175 Sierra Match Kings?). Use a ballistic program to find out what MV you need at your altitude. You have some nice, stable, tight groups in the 43-44gr loadings; many people find 44.5-45.0gr their solution and it gives satisfactory MV for 1kyd.

* If you're shooting 175SMKs, they don't need to be on the lands or close to it. Set your jump to about 0.020" instead. A chamber cut for 175SMKs will have about 0.020" bullet jump with a cartridge overall length (COAL) of 2.800".

 

[killer_penguin]

Re: SMK 175 + Varget Load Work-Up

Seems quite backwards to me jack.

Ladder or OCW FIRST to determine the potential nodes.

THEN the group shots like he's doing. ... and still, at 100yds there isn't much to be gained if your goal is to shoot long range.

 

[One-Eyed Jack]

Re: SMK 175 + Varget Load Work-Up

Are we just arguing over the difference in charge weight for a ladder test? I call a 0.2gr difference a fine ladder test. If you know nothing at all about a cartridge except the max safe charge weight, you might start with a bigger step to save the number of rounds you might waste on poor choices, but loads for 175SMKs and Varget have been explored ad naseum and you can start with a finer ladder, IMO.

BTW, I don't care for single-shot ladder tests - you get more information with a three-shot test, which gives you grouping and MV stability (vertical change). But it costs more in ammunition and reloading time.

 

[CK_32]

Re: SMK 175 + Varget Load Work-Up

If this load is for longer range 300 to 1000+ yards I would suggest testing some loads from 43.0 to 44.5gr with 5 shot groups @ 300yards.. Some loads that group best at 100 yards sometimes can have a totally different out come when taken to farther ranges. The 300 yards will space them out and show you more what they will do past 100 yards.

But if this is a under 300 yard load I would suggest 155gr or 168gr loads for match sub 300 yard loads. They seem to be more consistent under 500 yards than the 175s are from what I hear.

 

[schwim]

Re: SMK 175 + Varget Load Work-Up

This was essentially an OCW evaluation, and I didn't want to start low (42 in the books), cause I'd like to be able to get to 1 k if possible. I definitely will chrono, but the interior ballistics prediction for the 44.2 is at about 2545 with a 20 inch barrel. This should go transonic somewhere around 940 yards in my neck of the woods at this time of year.

That's fine with me, I'm way more happy with a good accuracy node and not pushing velocity. Will probablly go to a .260 or 6.5 x 47 for longer than 900 yards anyway.

 

[One-Eyed Jack]

Re: SMK 175 + Varget Load Work-Up

The loads I like for potential accuracy, regardless of MV, are:

* 43.2gr - very little vertical stringing or positional change when you increase or decrease the load by 0.2gr.

* 44.0gr - the same, except the stability extends to load changes of 0.4gr (and you get more MV).

I suggest taking these loads out a few hundred yards this time.

 

[BCP]

Re: SMK 175 + Varget Load Work-Up

I would think 44 is about where you want to be, the reason I think that is that the 43.6-44.5 groups SEEM to be all pretty tight and with a similar POI.

20" 308 not sure you should chase velocity. This will probably get rocks thrown at me here but I wouldn't put 46 varget behind a 175 either.

edit: oej beat me by 2mins

 

[schwim]

Re: SMK 175 + Varget Load Work-Up

Thanks, I'll look more into the 44.0 and bring the bullet back off the lands in increments and try it out farther. Will check MVs on the new versus fired brass.

 

[One-Eyed Jack]

Re: SMK 175 + Varget Load Work-Up

Schwim - I forgot to ask about 8208XBR and 175SMKs - is there no magic? Many months ago there was a thread started about a new powder for the M118LR round and we spent months guessing what it was- I think it turned out to be 8208XBR. Have you tried it with 175SMKs?

 

[One-Eyed Jack]

Re: SMK 175 + Varget Load Work-Up

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BCP</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would think 44 is about where you want to be, the reason I think that is that the 43.6-44.5 groups SEEM to be all pretty tight and with a similar POI.

20" 308 not sure you should chase velocity. This will probably get rocks thrown at me here but I wouldn't put 46 varget behind a 175 either.

edit: oej beat me by 2mins </div></div>
I thought 46gr of Varget was scary too, except with a 155 Scenar or Palma bullet or a 168SMK.

 

[madd0c]

Re: SMK 175 + Varget Load Work-Up

Not really commenting on the ladder and 3 or 5 shot groups, however I think you will find that ALOT of people end up with Varget behind 175SMKs in the 43-44 range as their go to load in Lapua brass.

It also looks from your groups you will fall into this range.

I also know that alot of people will jump in to say that they go much higher than that for their loads. I don't doubt quickload if used properly, but as someone said I do think looking at your cases after firing will provide much more valuable real world data. And, in MY experience, I can tell you 45.8 gr of Varget will blow the primers out of Lapua brass behind a 175SMK in MY GAP crusader. YMMV. Also, after a complete workup to that level, it shot best at 43.4gr of Varget.

Just my 2 cents,
madd0c

 

[schwim]

Re: SMK 175 + Varget Load Work-Up

Thanks for the input, yea I'm actually leaning more towards 43.2 now. The POI seems stable. Wondering if there's anything to it that the groups in that area are smaller than along the higher node. I think that's not supposed to be important, but I like them better.

One-Eyed, I thought that the consensus turned out to be IMR 3031 for that Navy round, am I wrong? No I have not tried the XBR with the 175s yet, that's on the list of things to do. Seems like some people thought it was best for the lighter bullets. Anyone?

 

[One-Eyed Jack]

Re: SMK 175 + Varget Load Work-Up

IMR3031? It might have come out that way, I'll try to find the thread. Just curious really, I'm happy with Varget and sometimes RL15 with 175SMKs.

PS After checking the thread, I think the conclusion was that Federal is loading M118LR with 41.7gr of IMR4064.

 

[vman]

Re: SMK 175 + Varget Load Work-Up

Once that brass is formed you will likely see some accuracy around 45gr of varget, but everyones rifle is different.

If you can, take the target out to 200 or 300 yards for a more "expanded" view on the results

 

[Gregg Jacob]

Re: SMK 175 + Varget Load Work-Up

I've started to work up a load for 175SMK's with Varget. Was goin to shoot 2 strings, one at 200yds and one at 300yds, but went to a 100yd range and shot this ladder string. Will be going and shooting at 200 and 300 when the weather gets better to validate this string.
As you can see I had a wind from left to right that was around 10-15mph. Once I narrow my nodes down then I'll load 5 shot groups varying .2grains.

 

[LRS_Ranger]

Re: SMK 175 + Varget Load Work-Up

My SPR does pretty good for me with 45gr of Varget under a 175 SMK. BR2 primers, and fireformed Federal brass... Gregg Jacob I would load your next test from 43-44.5 and be done with it. If you don't get the results you are looking for, you can look at the other node or switch around with components. I wouldn't have 2 different loads with the same powder and bullet, because that is just one more set of dope you will have to remember. It's not like 44.5 gr is too hot..

 

[Gregg Jacob]

Re: SMK 175 + Varget Load Work-Up

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LRS_Ranger</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My SPR does pretty good for me with 45gr of Varget under a 175 SMK. BR2 primers, and fireformed Federal brass... Gregg Jacob I would load your next test from 43-44.5 and be done with it. If you don't get the results you are looking for, you can look at the other node or switch around with components. I wouldn't have 2 different loads with the same powder and bullet, because that is just one more set of dope you will have to remember. It's not like 44.5 gr is too hot.. </div></div>
I really don't care what your SPR does, it's not my gun. I'm sticking to my plan and will validate this string at 200 and 300 and if it is the same result will work up loads in the 41-41.5 and 43.5-44. There's only a 150fps difference. After that I'll test them at different yardage to see if they're keepers or not. You sound really impatient.

 

[pappy42]

Re: SMK 175 + Varget Load Work-Up

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LRS_Ranger</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My SPR does pretty good for me with 45gr of Varget under a 175 SMK. BR2 primers, and fireformed Federal brass... Gregg Jacob I would load your next test from 43-44.5 and be done with it. If you don't get the results you are looking for, you can look at the other node or switch around with components. I wouldn't have 2 different loads with the same powder and bullet, because that is just one more set of dope you will have to remember. It's not like 44.5 gr is too hot.. </div></div>

The only thing in your post that I take issue with is "It's not that 44.5 is too hot.."

In my rifle, 44 gr. of varget will blow primers. The load consisted of 175 gr. SMK, loaded to 2.8 OAL in once fired Federal GMM cases, Fereral GMM primers and 44 gr. of varget.

The point is, rifles are different; thus the importance of developing a load for a specific rifle.

 

[Switchblade]

Re: SMK 175 + Varget Load Work-Up

44.5gr Varget w/ 175SMK, Win brass, and Win/Fed match primers:
2700fps

45gr Varget will net over 2700fps and cause many flyers with an OEM Remy 700 PSS/VLS barrel

The 44.5 load in a match grade custom barrel will yield even faster velocities over 2700fps as well. Custom barrels like 2700fps with the 175 and should do well with a flat 44gr of Varget.
I have been using this same loading since the old Varget was getting 45gr @ 2700fps and when the new stuff came out it was hotter so we backed down the load by a half grain and in a custom barrel, backed off 1gr. Remember the 175 will stabilize at 300M and groups will stay tight at 300M so don't waste time on the 100M line beyond checking for zero

 

[kwak]

Re: SMK 175 + Varget Load Work-Up

Forgive me if this is a little off topic.

Is it safe to assume that if I want to work up some 308 loads for a new gun that 44 grains of Varget is a starting point for both the 168 & 175 SMK and the 168 & !78 A-max ?

My COL is fixed at the max the magazine will allow 2.80. But I can always go shorter and watch for pressure signs.

 

[targaflorio]

Re: SMK 175 + Varget Load Work-Up

I would not start at 44
Having said that, I'm only getting 2413 ave fps out of a 20" barrel with 43.3 grs varget over 175s. SD 09 es 31 though and a good 10 shot group.43.7 grs gets me 2450 fps ave. Good group too. At 100 yds.
Black hills factory 175s runs 2535 fps ave.
Winchester brass. BR2 . 2.80"
Keep going hotter, right?

 

[LRS_Ranger]

Re: SMK 175 + Varget Load Work-Up

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gregg Jacob</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LRS_Ranger</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My SPR does pretty good for me with 45gr of Varget under a 175 SMK. BR2 primers, and fireformed Federal brass... Gregg Jacob I would load your next test from 43-44.5 and be done with it. If you don't get the results you are looking for, you can look at the other node or switch around with components. I wouldn't have 2 different loads with the same powder and bullet, because that is just one more set of dope you will have to remember. It's not like 44.5 gr is too hot.. </div></div>
I really don't care what your SPR does, it's not my gun. I'm sticking to my plan and will validate this string at 200 and 300 and if it is the same result will work up loads in the 41-41.5 and 43.5-44. There's only a 150fps difference. After that I'll test them at different yardage to see if they're keepers or not. You sound really impatient.
</div></div> Ok, I figured you posted some shit cause you wanted comments on it, but I guess not. I figured I'd try to help you the way I appreciated people trying to help me. In that case, have at it, and all the best of luck to you Scooter...

 

[jmtyndall]

Re: SMK 175 + Varget Load Work-Up

You got that at 100? I tend to get a glob at only 100 yards, I can't see what the ladder is doing at all

 

[killer_penguin]

Re: SMK 175 + Varget Load Work-Up

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jmtyndall</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You got that at 100? I tend to get a glob at only 100 yards, I can't see what the ladder is doing at all </div></div>

That's kinda what I was thinking. He must have a 30" pencil barrel.

 

[Nessal]

Re: SMK 175 + Varget Load Work-Up

I have loaded up to 46grn Varget behind a 175SMK in commercial win brass out of my 26" kreiger. The chrono read them at 2770-2800. Now THAT is moving for a 175SMK. No pressure issues or even flat primers at all so go figure. But it did shoot like COMPLETE crap.

 

[woodspider]

Re: SMK 175 + Varget Load Work-Up

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: madd0c</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not really commenting on the ladder and 3 or 5 shot groups, however I think you will find that ALOT of people end up with Varget behind 175SMKs in the 43-44 range as their go to load in Lapua brass.

It also looks from your groups you will fall into this range.

I also know that alot of people will jump in to say that they go much higher than that for their loads. I don't doubt quickload if used properly, but as someone said I do think looking at your cases after firing will provide much more valuable real world data. And, in MY experience, I can tell you 45.8 gr of Varget will blow the primers out of Lapua brass behind a 175SMK in MY GAP crusader. YMMV. Also, after a complete workup to that level, it shot best at 43.4gr of Varget.

Just my 2 cents,
madd0c </div></div>
Good advice above!!!
Ill second it. It has been my exact experience with the 175 SMK, Lapua brass and Varget. I ended up liking 43.6 gr. it worked for me. My initial ladder was at 500 go long if you can it will really bring out the truth.

 

[Gregg Jacob]

Re: SMK 175 + Varget Load Work-Up

Sorry if I offended anyone. My gun is just a stock Savage FLCP-K, 24" 1-10 twist. with a NF NAS 8-32. Have done this ladder test with other weight bullets and have had the rate of climb as Vol. goes up. This was takin at a 100yd range since the closest 200-600yd range is 45miles. Will shoot this at 200 and 300 when weather gets better..that might not be till the end of Feb here in Texas

Also would love to see some pics of ladder test that other shooters do. Seems there are people that talk about it but don't show samples to explain what they are talking about...see that in so many forums.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Killer Penguin</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jmtyndall</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You got that at 100? I tend to get a glob at only 100 yards, I can't see what the ladder is doing at all </div></div>

That's kinda what I was thinking. He must have a 30" pencil barrel.

</div></div>

 

[Leaddog]

Re: SMK 175 + Varget Load Work-Up

6 minutes at 100 yards? I've never seen that much. Based on your velocities of 2302fps to 2726fps, the most elevation change you should see is 2.42".

 

[wksinatl]

Re: SMK 175 + Varget Load Work-Up

I've never owned a 308 yet that didn't shoot 44grs of Varget/175mk well (Kriegers, Walther, Schneider, factory tube).

Even after doing a good workup w/ an Oehler, and all of the latest and greatest methods, I STILL end up right at 44grs.

Keith

 

[Gregg Jacob]

Re: SMK 175 + Varget Load Work-Up

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Leaddog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">6 minutes at 100 yards? I've never seen that much. Based on your velocities of 2302fps to 2726fps, the most elevation change you should see is 2.42". </div></div>
That's the way it shot..was using Hornady match brass with CCI br-2 primers. I thought it climbed fast too. Maybe some one here can shed some light. As soon as the weather gets better will do it again @ 200yds...might be awhile by the weather man, nasty time of the year.

 

[Gregg Jacob]

Re: SMK 175 + Varget Load Work-Up

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KS</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've never owned a 308 yet that didn't shoot 44grs of Varget/175mk well (Kriegers, Walther, Schneider, factory tube).

Even after doing a good workup w/ an Oehler, and all of the latest and greatest methods, I STILL end up right at 44grs.

Keith </div></div>

Yea, that looks about were I'm goin to end up with unless I want a lighter load in that 41-41.5 range. I'll just see how it goes.