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Fieldcraft snail trails

T

TOP PREDATOR

Gunny Sergeant
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Jul 19, 2008
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SCRANTON AREA PENNSYLVANIA
#1
while stalking varmints this weekend, i was reminded "snail trails" can be used 2 ways:

snailtrail.jpg


1. when you absolutely don't want to be found, avoid the snail trails....between the coloration and direction the blades of grass pushed down will lead anyone (that notices) to where you are.

2. can be used as a diversionary tactic, lay one down, double back through other hard cover, but be wary of any sign you leave in that hard cover.
 
#4
Re: snail trails

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TOP PREDATOR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">while stalking varmints this weekend, i was reminded "snail trails" can be used 2 ways:

1. when you absolutely don't want to be found, avoid the snail trails....between the coloration and direction the blades of grass pushed down will lead anyone (that notices) to where you are.

2. can be used as a diversionary tactic, lay one down, double back through other hard cover, but be wary of any sign you leave in that hard cover. </div></div>

3, Sign found, will bring out their hunter if in same AO. Depending MR you may have time to quietly tag him and his sidekick an move on. Be sure the sign he's following is at least 1 hr old. He will not be as tight if it's less than 5-10 minutes old. He may or may not know the quality of who he's tracking depending your skill set at leaving or not leaving sign. If you leave a straight trail towards their force w/o shooting most of the time they'll think your just a scout.

4, To ambush site, trip wires ect if drawing a large force.
 
#7
Re: snail trails

5 responce's total, to a true observation? Funny how a photo of a set of tits gets 50+. Guess things <span style="font-weight: bold">Have </span> really changed in America.

Watched how all the media, too include Fox, wanted to kept the 20 something Russian here in America, and that kid low-hand is all that.

Until now I never believed it was this bad, but again I'm proven wrong. Kept up the good work, your making those that want the destruction of America proud, I'm sure.
 
#8
Re: snail trails

I really wonder though if its anything to be truely concerned about, I mean unless someone were to look super close, it could pass as being the result of some wildlife passing through the area.
 
#9
Re: snail trails

They are pretty apparent when seen, but I usually see them in cattle fields where they are all over.

A single one in a single field would be a red flag I would think.
 
#14
Re: snail trails

Some of you seem to think that snail trail is a disadvantage to the person who made it (if a human made it).

Crossing a flat field with low foliage can give more advantage to someone being tracked than to those doing the tracking. Would any sane person (or dog) follow that snail trail across the field?
It would be a very good way for one or several people to get themselves killed.
 
#15
Re: snail trails

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lou Boyd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Some of you seem to think that snail trail is a disadvantage to the person who made it (if a human made it).

Crossing a flat field with low foliage can give more advantage to someone being tracked than to those doing the tracking. Would any sane person (or dog) follow that snail trail across the field?
It would be a very good way for one or several people to get themselves killed. </div></div>

no i would not follow the trail directly,would circle around, a dog doesnt know anything about being sane, so yes i would sacrifice a dog to save a life. a perp would give their location away by firing on the dog.
 
#16
Re: snail trails

If you're proactive you can defeat a dog, and even if you're not avoiding them is doable.

Back in 2005 or something, there was a 44 hour Sniper Match where they brought dogs out from the local PD. You couldn't get proactive with them, but they weren't a game changer either. Seeing them before they see you is very easy, as well depending on the area there are more than one way to beat an animal. It just follows a scent, you on the other hand can out think and out wit.

To someone actively stalking, a dog is an easy fix if you wanted too.
 
#17
Re: snail trails

Lowlight said:
If you're proactive you can defeat a dog, and even if you're not avoiding them is doable.

Back in 2005 or something, there was a 44 hour Sniper Match where they brought dogs out from the local PD. You couldn't get proactive with them, but they weren't a game changer either. Seeing them before they see you is very easy, as well depending on the area there are more than one way to beat an animal. It just follows a scent, you on the other hand can out think and out wit.

To someone actively stalking, a dog is an easy fix if you wanted too. [/quote


Have hunted with dogs most of my life hound dogs, terriers and german sheperds, also was a member of kentuckiana schutzund club years ago, loved tracking with dogs, i cant perceive any way to hide from a dog or out think their nose. i have tried every concievable way to out wit a dog, would really like some insights its done.
Click to expand...
 
#18
Re: snail trails

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hesco</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Have hunted with dogs most of my life hound dogs, terriers and german sheperds, also was a member of kentuckiana schutzund club years ago, loved tracking with dogs, i cant perceive any way to hide from a dog or out think their nose. i have tried every concievable way to out wit a dog, would really like some insights its done. </div></div>

Prior planning. Spray your ao down in a 25 yard area with CS or pepper spray.

Now dogs are smart, have seen many training videos where this has happened, the owner takes the dog on a 50 yard circle of the AO and eventually picks up the track again...

Mythbusters, other shows have tried to debunk and could never get away from a dog - but Frank is right - there are ways....

Coyote piss or wolf piss (Female in heat) is one way...prior planning...no matter HOW well trained or dog is, it's a distraction...
 
#19
Re: snail trails

So, you can't think of anyway to foul their nose... or to psyche out the handler... if you were following a trail and noticed you were moving back on your tracks, that wouldn't give you pause. With the understanding you're tracking an armed person.

The problem is, most will consider it but never attempt it in fear of harming the dog, well if you have no fear of hurting the dog, chances are you can very easily. If I said to you, as the owner, "hey I want to you to track me with your dog, with the understanding given the opportunity I will hurt the dog, the odds are you're not going for it. So very few have an honest representation of what is possible.

For real,
Once bringing you around doesn't take more than two sub sonics, one for you, one for the dog. Depending on the terrain, you can lead a tracker to any point of your choosing in order to act. If you're being tracked, or have the potential of being tracked, it would be in your best interest to act accordingly, or to prepare for that, I am not going to list specifics, but I definitely can think of a few chemicals that will give them and their nose a hard time.
 
#20
Re: snail trails

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Depending on the terrain, you can lead a tracker to any point of your choosing in order to act. </div></div>



Oh so true.
When tracking, it's very hard to not become the target, or the Pied Piper leading the target.

I heard there was a gig in Cambodia once, were trails were made after one shot was taken and moved the real targets 3 clicks, well within reach of 6, 4/duce tubes.

Show me guys with good on the run Combat Tactics, and FieldCraft, I'll show you the group that's coming home with completed missions, 99.9% of the time.
 
#21
Re: snail trails

A experienced dog will not back track he will follow the stongest scent, for example if you walk 100 yds in a straight line back track fifty walk 90 degrees from that point the dog will know where to turn or if tracking on wind will just flow in that direction, most german sheperds in this situation will wind track only way to mess up their nose would be some type of line trap,dont think spraying or sprinklings on the ground will do it. would like to test some of this with my dog
 
#22
Re: snail trails

You don't have to walk back on your own tracks, you simply walk the handler and the dog in a looping direction... or as written above to terrain you can control.

Consider a short vertical climb, something with a ridge line... move the tracker along the base, go vertical and then back, the tracker will be directly underneath you, two subsonic rounds and both you and the dog have tracked for the last time.

The possibilities are endless if you have any imagination, problem is most look at it from the standpoint the target is moving away unarmed, or even unprepared, however moving against someone prepared for the animal is a whole other story. especially if they are armed.

Consider in a typical sniper school the instructors bring the students to within 200 yards or less of the instructors with binoculars, then have them shoot blanks with a spotter within a few meters of the shooter. In order to pass you still can't be seen even though the walker will reach in and "touch" the shooter on the head. If they can't see the shooter within 200 yards, what are you going to with someone 600 or 800 yards away. One round the dog is down and I am on my merry way while you're trying to figure out what to do next. You can even have a rifle of your own and still the odds are all on me.

Tracking a prisoner with nothing but the clothes in his back, sure dog wins, but me, armed, prepared, you're both done before you know what hit you.
 
#23
Re: snail trails

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hesco</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A experienced dog will not back track he will follow the stongest scent, for example if you walk 100 yds in a straight line back track fifty walk 90 degrees from that point the dog will know where to turn or if tracking on wind will just flow in that direction, most german sheperds in this situation will wind track only way to mess up their nose would be some type of line trap,dont think spraying or sprinklings on the ground will do it. would like to test some of this with my dog </div></div>

If you really believe that, you need to complete a quality fieldcraft course before you even think about stepping foot, on a true battlefield.

The difference between testing your dog and the real thing, is black an white and trust me, you won't like the outcome. Testing your thoughts above on a true battlefield,... you nor your dog would survive the encounter. Sounds harsh I know, but it's the truth.

When tracking your average armed man you better know what your doing. Tracking someone that's been trained in the art and has applied that training more than once and survived it, ain't like the movies, or a Holiday Inn Express.
 
#26
Re: snail trails

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So, you can't think of anyway to foul their nose... or to psyche out the handler... if you were following a trail and noticed you were moving back on your tracks, that wouldn't give you pause. With the understanding you're tracking an armed person.

The problem is, most will consider it but never attempt it in fear of harming the dog, well if you have no fear of hurting the dog, chances are you can very easily. If I said to you, as the owner, "hey I want to you to track me with your dog, with the understanding given the opportunity I will hurt the dog, the odds are you're not going for it. So very few have an honest representation of what is possible.

For real,
Once bringing you around doesn't take more than two sub sonics, one for you, one for the dog. Depending on the terrain, you can lead a tracker to any point of your choosing in order to act. If you're being tracked, or have the potential of being tracked, it would be in your best interest to act accordingly, or to prepare for that, I am not going to list specifics, but I definitely can think of a few chemicals that will give them and their nose a hard time. </div></div>
What about pepper spray on an article of clothing? When the dog catches up and sniffs that in I would think it would be over right then and there, am I wrong?
 
#27
Re: snail trails

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: strangedays</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What about pepper spray on an article of clothing? When the dog catches up and sniffs that in I would think it would be over right then and there, am I wrong? </div></div>

I don't know about pepper spray, we use something different long ago.

On a side note there is a country that uses 5 dogs to make up one tracking team. There is no chemical or smell that will stop them all, but if you look at how they are/were trained there is a opening to slip threw.
 
#28
Re: snail trails

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: strangedays</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What about pepper spray on an article of clothing? When the dog catches up and sniffs that in I would think it would be over right then and there, am I wrong? </div></div>

I don't know about pepper spray, we use something different long ago.

On a side note there is a country that uses 5 dogs to make up one tracking team. There is no chemical or smell that will stop them all, but if you look at how they are/were trained there is a opening to slip threw. </div></div>

Yes i agree with your previous post one would have to be a fool to track a armed, skilled person, your dog and you could easily be spoted and taken out, was looking at this scenero more from a civilian leo standpoint tracking a unskilled criminal, am sure that a canine can be trained around scent blockers, learn to avoid and work around them.
 
#30
Re: snail trails

pertaining to the dogs and scent, amonia in a small spray bottle, kills the sniffer for hours. doubles to ease the sting / itch of insect bites too.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">5 responce's total, to a true observation? Funny how a photo of a set of tits gets 50+. Guess things <span style="font-weight: bold">Have </span> really changed in America.

</div></div>

like your style gunfighter
 
#31
Re: snail trails

I have caught many a bad guy, that ran on foot, by getting low and looking for this and running a flashlight along the vegetation. It just pops out at you. Most of those turds just run out of sight and lay down because they either do so much crack or meth and cant run far. But I always preferred to work at night, I think it offers many advantages, if your careful.
 
#32
Re: snail trails

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TOP PREDATOR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">pertaining to the dogs and scent, amonia in a small spray bottle, kills the sniffer for hours. doubles to ease the sting / itch of insect bites too.</div></div>

Wouldn't the dog just smell it from a ways off and not get a big sniff? I tested my (untrained, house pet) dog just now with some ammonia and he wouldn't even go in the same room much less walk up and sniff it.

edit: he still smells the pizza delivery from the other room, so I guess his sniffer was not permanently affected by the ammonia either.
 
#34
Re: snail trails

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bowtie4x4295</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have caught many a bad guy, that ran on foot, by getting low and looking for this and running a flashlight along the vegetation. It just pops out at you. Most of those turds just run out of sight and lay down because they either do so much crack or meth and cant run far. But I always preferred to work at night, I think it offers many advantages, if your careful. </div></div>

The difference between your way and mine is yours have rights, an get a free lawyer. Mine got do process on the spot.
grin.gif


I'm to old now,.... but given the right target/s, I might know other old guys I ran with, that would saddle up again.
 
#35
Re: snail trails

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TOP PREDATOR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">5 responce's total, to a true observation? Funny how a photo of a set of tits gets 50+. Guess things <span style="font-weight: bold">Have </span> really changed in America.

</div></div>

like your style gunfighter </div></div>

Man I have no style, me is just me.

I came here to better understand how things are done today, and what do I find, the bulk of the membership stays in the bear pit posting tits an ass photo's. Now don't get me wrong, I'm a big, tit and ass fan myself, but that's not what I'm here for.

Had a old, old,(battlefield)LT an E-8 as instructors, both beat into my head the need to 125% understand when push came to shove, fieldcraft would always get you home, and the enemy dead. The need to think quickly and out of the box was drilled so much it hurt, but thats what is needed at times.

Those that believe shooting is the package, will very quickly become, bag weight as my LT called it, the E-8 called it something I won't repeat here.

Maybe I'm missing something in the tits an ass an other way off topic threads that pertains to completing the task, but I'll just keep being me until ask to leave.
grin.gif
 
#37
Re: snail trails

I think meant to STUDY the path before you run down it for many reasons you mentioned above. Backing up is acceptable, but not always possible. It often pays to stop listen and look carefully, not just run in with guns a blazin. Like the young guys do...

Mike
 
#38
Re: snail trails

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jolly roger</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There are few jobs I would want less than handling the lead dog trailing an armed, proficient, and determined adversary.

Oh, and gunfighter, I like your style just fine, too. </div></div>

If this were a real combat operation and the snipers location could be pinpointed within a 100 yrds , would it be feasable to call for artillery or air support and take out a couple of grid squares
 
#39
Re: snail trails

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hesco</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> would it be feasable to call for artillery or air support and take out a couple of grid squares </div></div>


Doable yes, but the % is still with him if he knows what he's doing. Your best shot at getting him, from a leg point of view, is an old style FAE weapon. Unless you just pound his A/O with a TOT, which still does not have a 100% kill ratio.
 
#40
Re: snail trails

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hesco</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
If this were a real combat operation and the snipers location could be pinpointed within a 100 yrds , would it be feasable to call for artillery or air support and take out a couple of grid squares</div></div>

i would hope if it was a real combat situation, that none of us would be silly enough to make the snail trail, which was the point of the post. sticks out way too much.
 
#41
Re: snail trails

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Maybe I'm missing something in the tits an ass an other way off topic threads that pertains to completing the task, but I'll just keep being me until ask to leave.
grin.gif
</div></div>

I'd reference your very own sig:
There comes a point in everyone's life they understand the difference between,...what they thought mattered,...what never mattered,... and what always will.

In the interim, reminders of what might motivate us in lesser times of need are fine distractions while still reading good usable info elsewhere on the site. So far as forums go, this is the best organized (meaning self-organizing and also policed) I have seen without paying to play. Off-topic stuff is in the off-topic forums, optics in optics, bolts in bolts, etc. The exception is that while titties are off-topic, without pics they aren't worth mention, and thus end up in photography.. where it is further policed into less than a handful of threads.

Re: doggies...It seems to me that even though basically tracking is tracking, teaching a dog to find food and operating under the assumption that your hunting territory is inhabited by Lowlight, ready to kill you and your dog so he can eat all the meat, isn't exactly in a basic "teach your dog to hunt" book. Is it actually an established training discipline, or does everyone just keep extras and treat the one with them as expendable "go and get it for daddy" utilities? Foxes are stealthy individualists, but most the rest of canines are not so subtle pack hunters where getting hunted isn't really part of the equation. I'd be interested in the doggie psychology in promoting that behavior. All the sniffy dogs I've met become positively blinded when making an olfactory discovery.
 
#42
Re: snail trails

Tracking dogs are always on a lead. Walk them through some thick stuff, especially if it's a cold tracker/ground scent dog like a hound. As the dog slips under and through the veg, he leaves his leash and tracker hung up to no end. A well trained military/LE dog is like the best Army Private, he does everything he's told to do and nothing he isn't. Kill his handler and the dog is neutralized.
 
#43
Re: snail trails

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TOP PREDATOR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
i would hope if it was a real combat situation, that none of us would be silly enough to make the snail trail, which was the point of the post. sticks out way too much. </div></div>

Where I used to live there was so much thick 2' bluegrass in the open areas that if you crossed it you left a trail that showed a different color of green under the sunlight. The deer also crossed, though, and the trail left by a dozen deer and one walking guy isn't much different. The difference here is that I think we're assuming (correctly) a crawl by a camouflaged sniper. That would leave a trail that I could have told apart from an animal trail.

Would most people notice the difference? No. I'd bet it's probably still well worth taking a detour to avoid the grass and cross at one of the brushy low spots.
 
#44
Re: snail trails

I avoid crawling like the plague. If you stack your veg properly, you may never need to crawl. I think I crawled about a total of 100m in sniper school. A couple stalks, I just crouched right up into my FFP.

Crawling is probably going to leave a noticeable amount of jute behind as well.

Also, we are some of the most well read, smartest people around. Aside from Africa, SE Asia, and MAYBE some folks in South America- the average 'tracker' in the 3rd world is probably the equivalent of a below average deer hunter. This being said, don't underestimate your enemy and you don't relax- but be confident that basic counter tracking techniques ARE effective and ARE working for you.

There are a lot of IEDs that are found just because of all the foot traffic around the sight, if they don't think about footprints, snail trails are far beyond their scope.
 
#46
Re: snail trails

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Teggy1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anybody have any recomendations to read up on the above conversation? Or field craft in general? Amazon comes up with a bunch of secret tips/magic from the CIA and similar, or mostly medical stuff. </div></div>

If your really looking to bone up, start your search on basic small unit tasks an tactics. If you can find an old Pathfinders or Sniper's hand book it will give you alot of worth while pointers. Studying your enemy's tactics will allow you a snapshot into their train of thought. Once you have a good understanding of how they field an work you'll start seeing a pattern of how each country's basic civi logic is applied to the field. You can even use their religion, an morals against them in the field as well.

Always think out of the box, but what worked yesterday may not work today. The ability to arrive alive at both ends is the true test of your training, and trainers. When in doubt stop an think, about the best way to complete the task given. Could you run them into bigger guns, can you burn them, are they the type that can be made to turn on each other? Exploit every event you can while being a ghost.

I know of one group in the 80's that used Pig Blood as a weapon to extract required info, while not PC it worked, and the task was completed without a shot being fired. Everyone has a weakness, exploit it any way you can.
Bad weather is your best friend and whats in the books and schools only get you started, once the light comes on, it's a brave new world.
 
#48
Re: snail trails

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Teggy1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anybody have any recomendations to read up on the above conversation? Or field craft in general? Amazon comes up with a bunch of secret tips/magic from the CIA and similar, or mostly medical stuff. </div></div>

http://www.amazon.com/SAS-Guide-Tracking-Bob-Carss/dp/1585740314


Good read, but like anything reading about it and being able to really do it at a high level of proficiency are two different things.


Good luck
 
#49
Re: snail trails

You will Not beat a dogs Nose.... but if he's Good enough to be tracking a armed human, it's cause he's Very well trained. Use the Training !

What happens to Coon dogs that tree Possums ? Rabbit dogs that run Deer ? If it's been pounded into Fido's head NOT to Tree Possums Ever, he will Often not tree a Coon if there is a Possum in the area. That scent means NO. Remember, they can't rationalize or effectively communicate what they are smelling. They Always revert to their Training.
 
#50
Re: snail trails

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ~Ace~</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You will Not beat a dogs Nose.... but if he's Good enough to be tracking a armed human, it's cause he's Very well trained. Use the Training ! </div></div>

I've used std Mess Hall issued items and always got home w/o a problem.
If he beats that, I've a 180gr subsonic threw a Can, that well end his tracking days, then while his handler is thinking he may be next, I'll confirm, he was correct. There is nothing that does not have a counter, the trick is finding what it is, on a short time table.

The nice thing about a tracking dog is you get more targets being led to you, sometimes they lead the money shot as well.
 
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