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Soldier shot as a result of hot brass down neck.

Hummer

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Jun 20, 2009
702
2
78
SC Cradle of the Confederacy
This below was found posted (copied and paste here) on the Army Safety Center Website.

"Hot Brass
in the Summertime
“Put the weapon down and step away!” You usually only hear that phrase on television cop shows late at night, and if you hear it in real life, you’re probably in big trouble. But these words don’t apply only to criminal situations. Many a negligent discharge might’ve been prevented if someone had spoken up when they saw a comrade acting in an unexpected or less-than-safe manner. Such was the case in a recent negligent discharge accident.
After 30-odd pages of analysis, the local and centralized accident investigation boards came up with a recommendation for live fire ranges. When something unsafe or unexpected happens on the range, the person(s) involved should put the weapon down and step back before doing anything else. The chance for error and a negligent discharge is greatly reduced when the most dangerous object around is removed from human hands.
Before this particular accident, some Soldiers and Air Force members were training perimeter defense techniques. Two Airmen situated side by side fired their M16s over a wall at moving targets downrange. Hot brass from the left Airman’s weapon landed on the other Airman’s neck and rolled down his back. The burned Airman jerked his left hand up and pivoted his body to the left as he tried to brush away the scorching metal. However, his rifle was still in his right hand, and he didn’t remove his finger from the trigger as he turned toward the other Airman. The M16 slipped off the table support, and its falling weight applied pressure to the burned Airman’s trigger finger, causing the weapon to fire and hit the Airman to the left. He suffered extensive abdominal injuries but fortunately survived the incident.
Could this type accident happen on your range? The odds of this exact incident happening again are phenomenally small, but there’s always a chance when live ammunition is involved. Hot brass is a fact of life on live fire ranges, and it’s also a common problem in close combat and military operations in urban terrain environments. But anything from a bee sting to a lightning strike or just a good scare could cause any Soldier to react in the same manner as the Airman in this accident, regardless their operational location.
Leaders and individual Soldiers applying Composite Risk Management (CRM) to their live fire training should automatically identify negligent discharges as a primary hazard on the range. But it’s important not to discount the other events and circumstances that might result in an accident. A good resource for leaders preparing for a live fire exercise is the lessons learned from other units that have either recently completed similar training or conduct it on a regular basis. Identify what their problems were, assess your unit’s risk, and mitigate accordingly.
The unit in this accident had the required officer in charge (OIC) and range safety officer (RSO) on the range that day, as well as additional safety officers who were acting as observers/controllers (O/Cs) during the exercise. Although not a contributing factor, it’s possible the O/Cs could’ve missed an unsafe act because they were preoccupied with their controlling responsibilities. When training Soldiers or Airmen who aren’t accustomed to live fire ranges, leaders must assess their safety officers’ duties to ensure they aren’t overtasked. For units that regularly train on these ranges, leaders should assess the need for safety mechanisms above and beyond what’s usually required.
Before they take over the range, OICs and RSOs are required to attend training with their local range control, and there are several vital questions that must be asked during this interaction. What are the steps for medical evacuation? What is the fastest and safest route to the nearest treatment facility? How will range control assist the unit with evacuation operations? These are important issues that must be discussed and planned for before the first shot is fired. When an accident or other injury occurs isn’t the time to figure out the actual execution of a medical evacuation.
It’s as simple as this: Put some thought into planning your next training event. CRM isn’t just a paper drill for the operations order. Rather, it’s a tool to help leaders identify how their Soldiers are at risk and how they plan to mitigate it. Visit the U.S. Army Combat Readiness Center’s Web site at https://crc.army.mil to find out more about CRM and how you can Own the Edge both on and off the range.
Comments regarding this article may be directed to the USACRC Help Desk at (334) 255-1390, DSN 558-1390, or by e-mail at [email protected]. The Accident Investigation Division may be reached through USACRC Operations at (334) 255-3410, DSN 558-3410, or by e-mail at [email protected]."

I have heard of troops getting killed as a result of this. Anyone else heard of this? Who, what , where, when on details.
 
Re: Soldier shot as a result of hot brass down neck.

Blilliant. At least the Air Force doesn't handle anything dangerous on a regular basis (like jet fighters loaded with bombs).
 
Re: Soldier shot as a result of hot brass down neck.

Had that happen at an indoor range a while back. The brass hit the divider wall to the right and when down my shirt. I slammed my pistol down on the table and danced it out. When I got home I had a 3rd nipple in the shape af a .45 casing branded in.
 
Re: Soldier shot as a result of hot brass down neck.

Rifle cases are much, much hotter than .45 brass. Annoying, but I've never seen anyone die from it.

There's a mistake in the title of the post regarding the conclusion about causation: it is is not a 'hot brass' problem, it's a training and gun-safety issue: it appears as if the soldier in this story was shot because someone else pointed a rifle at him and pulled the trigger.

Could we also conclude that the soldier was shot because of a gun?
 
Re: Soldier shot as a result of hot brass down neck.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Fuckin pussy needs to get some discipline in his body.....</div></div>You were talking to me, right?
laugh.gif
 
Re: Soldier shot as a result of hot brass down neck.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Rifle cases are much, much hotter than .45 brass. Annoying, but I've never seen anyone die from it.

There's a mistake in the title of the post regarding the conclusion about causation: it is is not a 'hot brass' problem, it's a training and gun-safety issue: it appears as if the soldier in this story was shot because someone else pointed a rifle at him and pulled the trigger.

Could we also conclude that the soldier was shot because of a gun? </div></div>Man, some people have nothing better to do..."Composite Risk Mangement"??? ...seriously!
Damn guns, anyawy...
 
Re: Soldier shot as a result of hot brass down neck.

Back in Boot Camp (1979) all us southpaws got plenty of hot brass in our faces, and down our shirts. The M16A1 didn't have the brass deflector.

We were given the proper "motivation" to endure the discomfort and carry on, from our "coaches"......grin
 
Re: Soldier shot as a result of hot brass down neck.

If one can't handle a single strike from hot brass without committing fratricide, what happens when the air-lead density gets high on a two-way range?
 
Re: Soldier shot as a result of hot brass down neck.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If one can't handle a single strike from hot brass without committing fratricide, what happens when the air-lead density gets high on a two-way range? </div></div>The Sarge gives you a time out so you can call your mommy...the safety inspector tells the enemy to stop for a minute so he can write a long-worded self gratifying report.
"Fracticide"...I'm suprised that word wasn't in the report.
 
Re: Soldier shot as a result of hot brass down neck.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steelcomp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Fracticide"...I'm suprised that word wasn't in the report.</div></div>I think fratricide requires friendly fire, which assumes an engagement with the enemy (and the intent to do harm).
 
Re: Soldier shot as a result of hot brass down neck.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BOLTRIPPER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">yet another reason to have a shemag about your neck </div></div>
Back when, we just called it a Give A F--K Towel. I used them plenty on the range, especially next to Garand shooters.

Keeping sleeves rolled down and buttoned keeps the brass from going down there too.

I was at a civilian range when some guy was letting his girlfriend shoot his Glock. First round dumped a 9mm case down the front of her shirt and she started dancing around with the pistol waving at every other person on the line. A rather loud, firm vocal instruction ceased the dance and she put the weapon on the bench and dug out the brass. Her boyfriend gave me a shitty look, but she later came up and apologized. Funny thing was, her boyfriend was local LEO, could only think of him locking up again with some perp blasting away at a crowd. And they wonder why I covet my CCW.
 
Re: Soldier shot as a result of hot brass down neck.

I think you could almost solder with recently fired brass from an AR platform...

I know even a minute or so after letting it hit the catcher, it can still leave those smooth little burn marks on your fingers!

I don't even want to imagine what it'd do if you get it stuck between skin and clothing.

That said, he should've been trained that when experiencing sudden unexpected and extreme amounts of pain... to drop the weapon.
 
Re: Soldier shot as a result of hot brass down neck.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Poison Miller</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't even want to imagine what it'd do if you get it stuck between skin and clothing. <span style="color: #CC0000">I have a couple lines on my forearms and on my back from prior experience....aka lessons.</span>

That said, he should've been trained that when experiencing sudden unexpected and extreme amounts of pain... to drop the weapon. </div></div> Actually, proper training is to maintain CONTROL of said weapon, no matter what, so you can be an effective resource, not a liability.
 
Re: Soldier shot as a result of hot brass down nec

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Rifle cases are much, much hotter than .45 brass. Annoying, but I've never seen anyone die from it.
</div></div>
For some reason, when you ae concentrating on a trget, trigger control and sight picture, freshly fired brass, no more than a second or two out of the chamber, gets the attention of someone not expecting it. I have decent pain tolerance, but how often to you wedge hot metal between your bare skin and clothing?
ouch.jpg

This was pepperball training about 4 hours after the class. They were not done quickly.
 
Re: Soldier shot as a result of hot brass down nec

I know a retired Lt. Col (Army) who told me he was at Ft. Jackson in early 70s gettng a physical at hospital and nurse came running and told Doc a troop had been shot on the range. He asked her how that happened and she said the ranger personnel told her the kid next to him got hot brass down his neck and in his wild gyrations shot this kid by accident. He immedately passed the my friend's physical and ran him out getting ready for the kid incoming.
Also I read on a highpower website about two weeks ago same thing happened at Ft. Knox.
A Marine told me that in MARINE Magazine a number of years back that there was a story about this happening on a Marine Corps range. He couldn't remember the date but remembered on the cover there was a Marine Aiming a M4 at the camera.
Apparantly this is a fairly common thing as the NRA and CMP have both authorized brass deflectors on competition rifles. I was just wondering if any others were aware of anyone getting shot.
 
Re: Soldier shot as a result of hot brass down nec

When my battalion first implemented the enhanced marksmanship shooting program you could identify the Marines that had been thru the shoot because they were the ones with the burn marks on their necks, The combo of hours of shooting, closely crowded on the range, and the lovely neck protector attachment funneling everything to your neck made for an interesting time. I saw several Marines burned so badly they were sent to the hospital for treatment, but after the first guy did the happy dance on the line and was promptly turtle fucked by the SNOIC that pretty much ended any issues with flagging on the line.
I agree with the Montana Marine, get some discipline. I've seen burns 10x worse in combat from 240G's or helos overhead, lose your composure there and you better believe someone is going to die.
 
Re: Soldier shot as a result of hot brass down nec

I've never seen combat, but it seems to me that when things get really bad the only thing that matters is the strength of your team and not the strength of the individual. Those who can stay focused on the mission at hand should never be put in harms way by the individual who is responding to his own needs.
 
Re: Soldier shot as a result of hot brass down neck.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Back in Boot Camp (1979) all us southpaws got plenty of hot brass in our faces, and down our shirts. The M16A1 didn't have the brass deflector.

We were given the proper "motivation" to endure the discomfort and carry on, from our "coaches"......grin </div></div>

No shit!!!!

I spent most of my Army life on support by fire, as a lefty and shooting a M-60 is a lot of fun.

The M240B made it so much better but still.

Shooting CQB and 5.56mm bouncing off walls and going down your IBA was the norm, also clearing a trench was the same game.

What a pussy.

John
 
Re: Soldier shot as a result of hot brass down neck.

Hello All,

New to the forum here! Nice to meet all of you. First, I have to say…desertrat1979, that looks like it hurt!

I know when I was active duty; I saw a lot of guys getting hit on the range, live fire exercises, and everywhere else getting with hot brass, especially with the M-16.

Is there any correlation…that the all of the hot brass from the M-16 hitting others actually the result of a design flaw with the M-16 itself?

Regards,

Brakes57
 
Re: Soldier shot as a result of hot brass down nec

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: desertrat1979</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This was pepperball training about 4 hours after the class.</div></div>You might want to refuse their Glock training.
wink.gif
 
Re: Soldier shot as a result of hot brass down neck.

Memories of a live fire shoot where a GAU equipped Huey flew overhead and showered the line with 7.62 brass...nothing like several pieces of hot brass down the neck and between your flak and skin.
 
Re: Soldier shot as a result of hot brass down neck.

the m1 was real good for throwing brass up and then down the neck or back. was like that was the last thing in its life was to make some other guy have a bad day before cooling off. rapid fire string and next thing you no the guy next to you is doing his thing.
 
Re: Soldier shot as a result of hot brass down neck.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: desertrat1979</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This was pepperball training about 4 hours after the class.</div></div>You might want to refuse their Glock training.
wink.gif
</div></div>

Too bad I couldnt refuse the tazer and OC training. f it was less-lethal we had to have a taste of it ourselves.
 
Re: Soldier shot as a result of hot brass down neck.

i've had hot brass down my shit while conducting MOUT in a shoot house. it was extremely awakening to say the least but i did maintain my muzzle discipline at all times until i could deck my weapon and get that hot motherfucker out my blouse. shit happens
 
Re: Soldier shot as a result of hot brass down neck.

Jeez....

I'm just a hobbyist on a one way range but when on a public range I go prone and really don't mind brass landing on me-it actually helps one train to shoot through distractions.
When shooting my SPR prone at a public rang I usually place a stool on its side next to me with the seat where my brass will hit it so I don't have to chase brass. Many times I've come home with the 2" long burns from brass, and I never shoot the guy next to me.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Poison Miller</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
That said, he should've been trained that when experiencing sudden unexpected and extreme amounts of pain... <span style="font-weight: bold">to drop the weapon. </span></div></div>
<span style="font-size: 26pt">WTF!?!?</span> I don't want to train where you train!
 
Re: Soldier shot as a result of hot brass down neck.

I've had a couple burns on my neck from shooting and seen some guys with pretty severe burns that you could see months later. Never heard of someone losing their frickin mind so much as to shoot someone else though. What a numb-nutted tard.

And no Poison, dropping a live weapon on Fire (Semi) with rounds in the chamber is NOT the right response to the situation for obvious reasons.
 
Re: Soldier shot as a result of hot brass down neck.

Brass from M1 Garands hitting others is the result of parts switching. The Garand was designed for a ejection pattern of between 1:00 and 2:00. If it is not there then there is something wrong. Most likely it is in the loads as the system was tuned for the 150 gr. FMJBT milspec round with a given port pressure window. If you go to handloads things will change.
The op rod on the M1 was built up above the right lug area to direct the brass forward and away from adjacent firers but then again everyone used the same ammo.
For instance I got a Tanker M1 a couple years ago and it put brass out at 11:30 to 12:00 and I knew that wasn't right. Being a tanker the gas port is 6" closer to the chamber thusly higher port pressure overdrove the gas system. I had to either download my handloads, wreck the rifle or make a gas plug. I made a vented gas plug from stainless to bleed off the excess port pressure.
I started out and was getting 5:00 ejection so opened the hole and it came to 4:00. Opened it again and it came to 3:00. I kept opening it till it got to 1:30. I can now shoot 150 thru 173 bullets full house loads and both bullet weights will drop brass between 1:00 and 2:00.
I have a class III dealer friend with a M4 upper and that thing puts brass at 3:00 all day.

The only time I got burned from a M14 was I was shooting next to AMU Colonel Hines at Perry. A hot round from his rifle rolled up under my jewels. I looked over at him and his scope stand was just in the right place and every three or four rounds a case would bounce off the stand but the rest all went in a pile about 9" wide at 2:00. Thusly it was a accident and not a oversight or on purpose.
The M14 also has a shoulder built up to accomplish this.
I have seen guys with brass deflectors at Perry drop brass right on their own shooting mat or just off the mat.
I have been burned multiple times by ARs and the sad part is their owners for the most part don't seem to give a big happy about anybody but themselves.
I have potty trained mine and I won't take a AR (Got 4) to a range if I don't know exactly where the brass is going and I will not expose anyone purposely to this. They drop brass between 1:00 and 2:00 and close by.
The NRA highpower rule book says you will not interfere with a competitor on another firing point. I go to shoot and have fun, not be the fun for some one that doesn't care about anyone but himself.
 
Re: Soldier shot as a result of hot brass down neck.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hummer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Brass from M1 Garands hitting others is the result of parts switching. The Garand was designed for a ejection pattern of between 1:00 and 2:00. If it is not there then there is something wrong. Most likely it is in the loads as the system was tuned for the 150 gr. FMJBT milspec round with a given port pressure window. If you go to handloads things will change.
The op rod on the M1 was built up above the right lug area to direct the brass forward and away from adjacent firers but then again everyone used the same ammo.
For instance I got a Tanker M1 a couple years ago and it put brass out at 11:30 to 12:00 and I knew that wasn't right. Being a tanker the gas port is 6" closer to the chamber thusly higher port pressure overdrove the gas system. I had to either download my handloads, wreck the rifle or make a gas plug. I made a vented gas plug from stainless to bleed off the excess port pressure.
I started out and was getting 5:00 ejection so opened the hole and it came to 4:00. Opened it again and it came to 3:00. I kept opening it till it got to 1:30. I can now shoot 150 thru 173 bullets full house loads and both bullet weights will drop brass between 1:00 and 2:00.
I have a class III dealer friend with a M4 upper and that thing puts brass at 3:00 all day.

The only time I got burned from a M14 was I was shooting next to AMU Colonel Hines at Perry. A hot round from his rifle rolled up under my jewels. I looked over at him and his scope stand was just in the right place and every three or four rounds a case would bounce off the stand but the rest all went in a pile about 9" wide at 2:00. Thusly it was a accident and not a oversight or on purpose.
The M14 also has a shoulder built up to accomplish this.
I have seen guys with brass deflectors at Perry drop brass right on their own shooting mat or just off the mat.
I have been burned multiple times by ARs and the sad part is their owners for the most part don't seem to give a big happy about anybody but themselves.
I have potty trained mine and I won't take a AR (Got 4) to a range if I don't know exactly where the brass is going and I will not expose anyone purposely to this. They drop brass between 1:00 and 2:00 and close by.
The NRA highpower rule book says you will not interfere with a competitor on another firing point. I go to shoot and have fun, not be the fun for some one that doesn't care about anyone but himself. </div></div>

to quote the op: "Hot brass is a fact of life on live fire ranges, and it’s also a common problem in close combat and military operations in urban terrain environments"

and in fact it is. not really talking about laying on a firing line at perry or your local range. some shit you just can't help like where a fire fight decides to happen
 
Re: Soldier shot as a result of hot brass down neck.

I am a lefty and I learned real quick after getting a couple inside my T-shirt and down my sleeve to keep my BDU shirt buttoned up to the neck and sleeves buttoned up tight when shooting an M-16. If your only wearing a T-shirt: grin and bear it.
 
Re: Soldier shot as a result of hot brass down nec

In a former life I ran many thousands of rounds through an M60,lefthanded. When the barrel is hot enough to start cooking off rounds, that brass is HOT! Never came close to shooting a friendly over it but 40 years later I still can count quite a few scars from that brass. As stated elsewhere, grow a pair and live with a little pain.
 
Re: Soldier shot as a result of hot brass down nec

Interesting ideasand opinions however doing some research I have learned the Military Standardizations Handbook of Human Factors Engineering Design for Army Materiel recommends the case ejection path be directed right and forward between 1:00 and 2:00.

 
Re: Soldier shot as a result of hot brass down nec

I think they should discharge his ass! Just think when he heads over to the sand box and he stumps his toe.....hell he could kill a whole platoon! It probly wont be long and yall's president will have marines wearing turle neck sweaters to prevent the hot brass from burning thier little necks. I think someone should have taken some rags and soaked them in kerosene then tied them around his ankles to keep the ants from crawling up his legs and eating on his candy ass.....
 
Re: Soldier shot as a result of hot brass down neck.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: J-Ham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Blilliant. At least the Air Force doesn't handle anything dangerous on a regular basis (like jet fighters loaded with bombs). </div></div>

What do you know about the AF?