Something I've noticed in this forum

[Mike_in_FL]

I lurk here a lot, read a lot, and learn even though I've got a bit of experience. Nothing like some folks here and yet more than others.

What I've noticed though is the two distinct schools of thought here regarding bolt guns. I'm kind of interested if anyone else agrees with this observation.

Whenever the what first rifle should I buy post crops up, it turns into Rem vs. Sav. And in the same thread the majority of contributors will say buy a 700, P or 5R, whatever.

Then there will be other threads discussing custom builds or should I say done by reputable, advertising smiths here. At some point during those threads it will be brought up that when you're going to do a full custom, a 700 action is NOT the way to go. In other words you'd be better off buying a better action since you're paying for all this work and you're only talking a few hundred (?) more dollars after you sell the 700.

It seems to me like the advice is running to spend, spend, and spend some more. I know what my opinion is, now I'd like to hear yours.

 

[Dirty D]

Re: Something I've noticed in this forum

I spent less than $1k and can make 1/2" groups with handloads, my buddy built a Surgeon that can make 1/4" groups but I spent $2500 less than he did and can afford to shoot my rifle with what I saved...

 

[maccrazy2]

Re: Something I've noticed in this forum

I equate it to building a small block chevy (rem 700) there are tons of them out there, lots of people build them but once you want to go real fast it reaches a point where you might as well leave the factory stuff in the garage and buy a custom block and heads. For the cost of really working over a stock setup you can spend a few extra bucks and get a custom purpose built rig.

 

[HN7]

Re: Something I've noticed in this forum

Also remember when recommend parts for build, it's not money from their pocket so naturally they would suggest the best and more expensive option. For ex: If I recommend myself a rifle, I'd suggest a 700P because I know how much money I'm willing to spend; but for you, I'd suggest a GAP.

 

[Kells81]

Re: Something I've noticed in this forum

I had the chance to have my first full custom built a month or so ago when it all came together and gotta say that if I cannot buy it off the shelf and have to have it built. I will NEVER use another Rem 700 action. I have some very nice Rem 700 based custom rifles but after getting a stiller I would be hard pressed not to spend that few extra bucks to get the custom action over the Rem action.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HN7</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Also remember when recommend parts for build, it's not money from their pocket so naturally they would suggest the best and more expensive option. For ex: If I recommend myself a rifle, I'd suggest a 700P because I know how much money I'm willing to spend; but for you, I'd suggest a GAP. </div></div>

I wouldnt suggest anything I do not own or have not had the chance to use.

 

[AXEMAN]

Re: Something I've noticed in this forum

its also strange that so many customs are 700 based but better made. and that better quality translates to higher value. i know remmy is a corp now, but making a better product and not trying to cut corners everywhere else would bring more to the bottom line than penny pinching

 

[LR-WSM]

Re: Something I've noticed in this forum

Doner Rem action : $375.00

True bolt lugs, bolt face, single point reciever threads, square reciever face and lugs. $200.00

Sako or M-16 style extractor, $120.00

oversized bolt knob, $75.00

Side bolt release, $100.00

Open up scope base holes to 8/40, $40.00

According to my math that comes to $910.00

I can buy a Stiller Preditor or Tac action for $925.00 or less and it will come with a precision ground recoil lug. The bolt to bolt raceway clearences will also be much closer. If your going to do all you can to create an extreamly accurate package why not start the project ahead of the game. Granted all steps listed above like the bolt release and extractor arent must do's, just trying to make it more apples to apples.

 

[Swan]

Re: Something I've noticed in this forum

Many on this forum have started with a bare-bones Rem700 based rifle and continually dumped money into it to make it shoot better and to a certain extent, personalize it. I was one of these individuals and thoroughly enjoyed the process at the time. Then I pieced together parts for a "custom" rifle and it shot better the first day than the Rem700 ever did. Needless to say, I'll never own another Remington or any other basic factory rifle.

But perhaps the most important issue to realize is the resale value of custom rifles vs. Rem based builds. No comparison.

 

[rdgshooteer]

Re: Something I've noticed in this forum

I started with a 700 VSF with a leupold MK4. Which I sold at one point due to needing money. When I finally had the chance to replace it last year and extra income coming in I decided to go custom. I debated between all the different actions that came highly recommend including a 700. In the end I found a KMW stock inletted for the Badger and decided Id go that route. I have no regrets. The action is smooth and going off LR-WSM's math only cost me a little more and I am able to run AW mags in it. I dont think its necessary for someone just starting out to spend more than they have to just in case they decide its not for them. Will I ever use a 700 action for a build probably not unless I decide to build something like a M24 or something from the M40 series.

 

[snipedogg]

Re: Something I've noticed in this forum

Savage 110-$275
Shilen Select Match Pre-fit and chambered barrel-$320
Precision Recoil Lug-$30
B&C Stock-$230
Out shooting the next to you with a $4000 rig-Priceless

 

[Oddball Six]

Re: Something I've noticed in this forum

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fngmike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
It seems to me like the advice is running to spend, spend, and spend some more. I know what my opinion is, now I'd like to hear yours. </div></div>

My honest thought on that is that it is true, some folks here have trouble remembering that all of us start somewhere. They see the situation that they are in with the experience that they have, and at a certain level, it is true that starting a rifle that is purpose built is going to be more likely, in the right hands, to meet the demanding criteria of that kind of shooter.

At the same time, I started with a ruger .22. And when I bought my first rifle that I owned myself, it was a 700.

And then i sold the 700 and now I am doing my first custom build and cutting it off at 5k including decent glass.

And I am sure one day I will likely want to move up to one of those crazy 7k rigs that folks on here like to talk about.

Id say start with your purpose and your experience in mind. If you have not spent much time behind a trigger, a .22 bolt action with reasonable inherent accuracy and half-decent iron sights is going to do you far more good to establish the basics than going out right now and blowing wads of cash on a custom that costs $2.50 every time you pull the trigger.

So before I (or many others here) can give you an opinion on what fits your use, I think the real question here is what are you wanting the rifle for and what kind of skills/experience do you bring to the table?

 

[nefarious79]

Re: Something I've noticed in this forum

You could make the same argument that most people are not even capable of getting 100% out of their rifle...or that its not the rifle its the ammo holding them back etc.

 

[JFComfort]

Re: Something I've noticed in this forum

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Swan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Many on this forum have started with a bare-bones Rem700 based rifle and continually dumped money into it to make it shoot better and to a certain extent, personalize it. I was one of these individuals and thoroughly enjoyed the process at the time. Then I pieced together parts for a "custom" rifle and it shot better the first day than the Rem700 ever did. Needless to say, I'll never own another Remington or any other basic factory rifle.

But perhaps the most important issue to realize is the resale value of custom rifles vs. Rem based builds. No comparison. </div></div>

+1

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Something I've noticed in this forum

The problem isn't the advice its usually the questions.

First off they start by wanted to know what is the "best" and people take that literally... second, they have selective reading comprehension, like in a post where I said, "love the 700, have more than any other rifle, <span style="text-decoration: underline">but given the choice</span> I would rather a AE". So what do they do, run out and say the 700 is no good.

Very few realize, rifles i use like the "Gladius" was bought a 700, I spec'd it out to be something different, but still a 700. The Harbinger, 700, the Headhunter, 700... all are hammers in their own right.

There are plenty of clues -- however their is also a cross section that wants to justify paying big dollars for a Surgeon, some other custom action. So they immediately want to "sell" on how happy they are they spent more for the custom action.

Some asked me, might have been Odd-Ball what my go to rifle is... well aside from not being very loyal to one rifle, I do shoot the Harbinger more often, as well the Gladius is another... now does that mean I don't other go too rifles, of course not, I'm a gun whore, and definitely default to AI rifles, but still tied for my AI fetish are my 700s.

I really think a lot of it is selective reading and people selling others on how specular their choice to spend more money was... doesn't make it better, just vocal because chances are, it was a lot of money. I know I have mentioned on more than one occasion how disappointed I have been in the custom - hi dollar action market, so clearly there is voice out there.

 

[Graham]

Re: Something I've noticed in this forum

I have seen expensive custom actions fail in tactical applications. By contrast, Remington 700's flat-out work. Then again, so do M4's.

The problem is that once you add a side bolt release and true a Remington you have spent the same as you would for a custom action like a Templar, but you still don't have the robustness and features of a good custom and in terms of resale value you still have only a Remington.

This realization, and the inane prices of after-market stocks, quickly leads one to the conclusion that the AE is the logical choice as both a value leader and a qualitative step beyond everything else.

So, in sum, use a Remington that you have and build a rifle, or accept that you will spend three grand on any rifle before it's all over so just buy an AE to start with and use it forever.

 

[scatsob]

Re: Something I've noticed in this forum

I think Lowlight got it right but I would just like to add that you have to come to your own conclusions as well. Other people can only tell you so much and in the end it’s going to come down to you making a choice. I research the crap out of everything I buy because I’m OCD but in the end I know I'm buying something I am happy with. Every rifle, custom of factory, cheep or hi-dollar, has pros and cons the will mean different things to different people. Buy what is right for YOU.

 

[stiller]

Re: Something I've noticed in this forum

Lowlight, why do you like the AE over the AW? I am not that familiar with the AI guns, have never shot one. What is the main difference? Is it mostly the round action and AICS clips. Help educate me on these guns, I have been hearing about them a little from Tooley, he has been working with them some. Is the AE still a 3 lug?

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Something I've noticed in this forum

Jerry,

I love the AW, it's a case of need and price.. I have more AWs than AEs, but use the AE a lot because it's an "affordable" AI for most.

The bolts are the same, you can put an AW bolt in an AE and vice versa... as well the barrel from an AW will fit on an AE, just not the other way around because of the recoil lug clearance.

The used to be different, before the MkII I would have said AW over the AE, but now with the MKII for most people not needing a <span style="font-weight: bold">"hardened"</span> Mil Spec rifle, the AE is awesome... AW is still better... I like the fact you can top load the AW, but I am not overlooking the affordable factor.

Same bolt, same trigger, same stock (just not bonded) Same barrel... what is not to love about the AE

 

[steelcomp]

Re: Something I've noticed in this forum

Someone please help a relative newb out here with the akronimz...
AE=
AW=
AI=

Thanks.

 

[Swan]

Re: Something I've noticed in this forum

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steelcomp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Someone please help a relative newb out here with the akronimz...
AE=
AW=
AI=

Thanks. </div></div>

here:
http://www.accuracyinternational.com/products.php

 

[steelcomp]

Re: Something I've noticed in this forum

I think sometimes it's a case of some place to start...then we progress, and spend a little here, spend a little there...pretty soon we've spent more than is really practical and now we know better, so we move on to bigger and better...and more expensive. Others just like the challenge of trying to make something into something it's not. When you're done tricking out a 700, is it really a 700 any longer? Unfortunately, yes...that's all it'll ever be...if that's important. From a shooter's standpoint, there must be a difference, or a $1200 Surgeon action would never sell if you could make a 700 into the same thing. Does that mean a Surgeon is worth 1200? Well, it is to <span style="font-style: italic">someone</span> out there....
I have no advice here. I know better. Just rambling.

 

[deadly0311]

Re: Something I've noticed in this forum

AI= Accuracy International

AW= Artic Warfare

AE= not sure....

 

[71firebird400]

Re: Something I've noticed in this forum

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steelcomp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Someone please help a relative newb out here with the akronimz...
AE=
AW=
AI=

Thanks. </div></div>

AI= Accuracy International

AE= Accuracy Enforcement. This is AI's less expensive rifle. Only available in 308. About $3k

AW= Artic Warfare. This is AI's more expensive rifle. Available in several caliber, 243, 308, 300WM, and 338LM. $5-6k

There's also an AW-50 (50 BMG) and the new AX (dedicated 338LM).

The main difference between an AE and AW is that the AW is permanently bonded to the stock. The AE can unbolt from the stock. The idea is that the AW is stronger and can take more punishment, but as LowLight pointed out the new AE's are much closer to AW's than they used to be.

 

[mavrick]

Re: Something I've noticed in this forum

http://www.accuracyinternational.com/products.php

Here might be a good place to start.

Dustin

 

[steelcomp]

Re: Something I've noticed in this forum

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 71firebird400</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steelcomp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Someone please help a relative newb out here with the akronimz...
AE=
AW=
AI=

Thanks. </div></div>

AI= Accuracy International

AE= Accuracy Enforcement. This is AI's less expensive rifle. Only available in 308. About $3k

AW= Artic Warfare. This is AI's more expensive rifle. Available in several caliber, 243, 308, 300WM, and 338LM. $5-6k

There's also an AW-50 (50 BMG) and the new AX (dedicated 338LM).

The main difference between an AE and AW is that the AW is permanently bonded to the stock. The AE can unbolt from the stock. The idea is that the AW is stronger and can take more punishment, but as LowLight pointed out the new AE's are much closer to AW's than they used to be. </div></div>Thanks very much.

 

[SRT_Supply]

Re: Something I've noticed in this forum

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stiller</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lowlight, why do you like the AE over the AW? I am not that familiar with the AI guns, have never shot one. What is the main difference? Is it mostly the round action and AICS clips. Help educate me on these guns, I have been hearing about them a little from Tooley, he has been working with them some. Is the AE still a 3 lug?</div></div>

We get this question quite a bit, so I made a page just to answer it. It pretty much covers all of the major differences between the two models.

http://72.17.147.19/accintlsrt/ACCAEVSAW.htm

At the end of the day, if money isn't an issue, get the AW. If you can't live without being able to top-off the magazine, or being able to lock the bolt down on safe, then get the AW. Otherwise, for a .308, go for the AE.

 

[Mo_Zam_Beek]

Re: Something I've noticed in this forum

A few things I have taken away:

- Savage - generally very accurate right out of the box. Aftermarket parts are gaining ground every year. Some folks aren't wild about the odd lock up - but it shoots.

- Rem 700 - for roughly $700 you can buy a 700P grab off the shelf factory match or give a half hearted effort at tinkering with a load and most anyone can stumble their way into 3/4 MOA at 100. I stress at 100. However, there is often a pretty good shift between CCB / WFB / CFB. The bolt handle is a notorious flaw but fails for only the few. When you stack up what you can incrementally turn this into - hard to beat this deal.

- AI - I was under the impression that is wasn't as accurate as it is. It'd be better if people discussed them more like a Glock - they are ugly, feel soul less, are boringly reliable, and flat work.

Other notables:

- There is a great thread around here discussing AIs vs Customs. In the thread it gives it up - all out accuracy = custom. However, first to fail in adverse conditions = custom. LL was pretty clear in that thread (maybe another?) - a stock R700 that has been trued and has a good tube, properly bedded, yada yada - is going to run exceptionally well and maintain a very high level of accuracy even in crappy times far better than a custom. Somewhere around here as well Zak Smith details how he got some small rocks lodged in the lugs of his AI and simply 'crushed rocks' while never missing a beat.

Good / Better / Best is defined by what you want the rifle to do. If you're into nats ass accuracy? I dunno (b/c I am not) but I am thinking that the rifles (and optics) primarily shown around here aren't what one would ultimately want. All around great rifle for a reasonable dollar amount? R700 or Savage and a good load with a lot of time behind the rifle beats any custom with a weak shooter behind it any day.

The real information is out there if you tune out the reviews of cool paint jobs and fluting styles and stay focused on the discussion points that are relative to what you want the rifle to do.

If a person knew 'this' is what they really wanted to focus money, time, and energy on, they could save a lot of money and hassle over the long run by buying an AE SA and an AW LA and just swap barrels.


Good luck

 

[GorbashUK]

Re: Something I've noticed in this forum

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Nefarious79</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You could make the same argument that most people are not even capable of getting 100% out of their rifle...or that its not the rifle its the ammo holding them back etc. </div></div>

Good point, there are lots of people with high end rifles who just simply have poor shooting technique and will never achieve the rifles potential. Have a club mate who just bought a new folding stock TRG22 with the S+B 5-25 PM scope on top, he spent £5500 here in UK and cant hold a 3" group at 100m with it. Hes not that good a shooter BUT he is happy.

 

[Kells81]

Re: Something I've noticed in this forum

You put an AE in a Manners or McM stock with a decent DBM and that would be the cats ass right there. Some of us have rather large thumb areas and the AI stock isnt quite a perfect fit.

On the topic side though I have alot of time on my hands when I am in the Box's and see something neat then buy it. When I get home I usually try it out and it either works or it doesnt. The stuff that I dont like/need/ or wonder wtf I was thinking usually goes back up on the PX here to pass on to others that might need/want/ or want to try. Thats about the best way to figure out if you like something is to try it out. Luckily I have the money to go down this road while some people dont have $750 to spend on a stock to see if they like hate it for example. Thats why opinions exist and we offer them up.

 

[Fx1]

Re: Something I've noticed in this forum

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fuscalino</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Nefarious79</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You could make the same argument that most people are not even capable of getting 100% out of their rifle...or that its not the rifle its the ammo holding them back etc. </div></div>

Good point, there are lots of people with high end rifles who just simply have poor shooting technique and will never achieve the rifles potential. Have a club mate who just bought a new folding stock TRG22 with the S+B 5-25 PM scope on top, he spent £5500 here in UK and cant hold a 3" group at 100m with it. Hes not that good a shooter BUT he is happy.</div></div>

Anyone who cant shoot 1 inch at 100 yards with a gun that heavy with a bipod and a 25x scope needs to sell up and take up bird watching.

 

[HotrRod308]

Re: Something I've noticed in this forum

I have always shot 700's, and recently purchased a GAP w/Templar Action.
I did not want to spend all the extra money to trick out the 700
ie side bolt release, m16 extractor, 8/40 base screws, bolt handle, truing....yada yada yada. So I left the Remmy alone and will keep shooting it as it is, as it will shoot 1/2 - 3/4 moa bone stock.
For the money and from a resale point of view I like the benefits of the Templar.

To each his own!

 

[RicosRevenge]

Re: Something I've noticed in this forum

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fx1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anyone who cant shoot 1 inch at 100 yards with a gun that heavy with a bipod and a 25x scope needs to sell up and take up bird watching. </div></div>
Dammit Fx1... I just spit coffee all over my keyboard. LMAO!

 

[gugubica]

Re: Something I've noticed in this forum

When I suggest a rifle for someone, it is from experience. I have spent tens of thousands of dollars over the years to wind up with one rifle. I went through stock factory rifles, then mods, then customs...losing money each time I sell one for something else.

So, where did I wind up? AE.

But, its a catch 22.. if I tell someone to skip all the steps I took, they will never know just how great a rifle and value the AE is. I fully appreciate this rifle because I know what all the other options are.

Is an AI for everybody? No, some people will express an interest in this sport that quickly fades. For them, a Rem or Savage or Howa is the best option. Some will express an interest that winds up being a life long addiction, for them, they could save a lot of cash in the long run if they skip the above. But, you never know which is which when they are asking "what is the best rifle for me?"

 

[W54/XM-388]

Re: Something I've noticed in this forum

There are quite a few different trains of thought and they always get discussed back and forth because depending on what your situation is, one may be a better fit for you & each are correct in their own way. My take on it is this:

No matter which way you go, you’ll probably always wind up spending more money down the road as you use your rifle more and you find little things that may work better for you or help improve your shooting.

If you start with a very basic rifle, you have a lot of upgrades that you will both need and want to do to it in order to improve the capabilities of it as your skill progresses or as you find problems that annoy you.

If you start with a really good high end rifle, either in custom or factory, there is less basic stuff you have to do and it’s more about smaller adjustments and better accessories etc.

If you have been shooting for awhile and are ready to get into precision rifle shooting and have a good bit of money saved up and are interested in putting quite a few years into the sport, as well as have a pretty good idea of what your goals are and matches you want to do. Then you might as well skip the in between steps and go straight for a really good tool. It will save you money and time in the long run & you’ll be happy knowing you have something that will perform flawlessly if you do your part.

If you are just getting into precision rifle shooting, and not really ready to make a long term commitment to it, then it may make more sense to get a good shooting cheaper factory rifle that you can use and learn on while not being out too much money. Then later you can either upgrade it, or move to something new and keep it as a spare or sell it or give it to one of the kids etc.

A very popular option is to get a Remington 700 or similar and shoot it and then upgrade slowly over time as your budget allows and as you find more things you want to do, this works well but often winds up costing a lot over a period of time. Usually also the highly customized 700s are good, but will just never be on the same level as a high end custom action build or a high end factory rifle like the AI or TRG.

I think a lot of people may make a mistake with their budget in the first place, because once you buy your entry level rifle and start upgrading it a bit, you are not far off from where you could be getting something much better.

Considering that AI AE MK IIs used in very good condition or a TRG also in close to new condition, or for that matter a lot of little used high end custom builds, can all be had close to the 3k mark, if the budget allows, it is a pretty small jump to go to something really good.

My advice to people who have the budget available to them is to start out getting an AI AE MKII (or AW) or a TRG and then get some good S&B or Hensoldt or USO glass and you’ll be good to go and full of confidence in your gear. Of course you will always one day want a second high end rig and then you can decide to go with a High end Custom build or another AI/TRG etc.

If budget is simply not avaliable, there are good options at just about every budget level and plenty of people who have gear or have had gear that fits that budget range that can offer plenty of first hand advice.

 

[GorbashUK]

Re: Something I've noticed in this forum

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fx1</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fuscalino</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Nefarious79</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You could make the same argument that most people are not even capable of getting 100% out of their rifle...or that its not the rifle its the ammo holding them back etc. </div></div>

Good point, there are lots of people with high end rifles who just simply have poor shooting technique and will never achieve the rifles potential. Have a club mate who just bought a new folding stock TRG22 with the S+B 5-25 PM scope on top, he spent £5500 here in UK and cant hold a 3" group at 100m with it. Hes not that good a shooter BUT he is happy.</div></div>


Anyone who cant shoot 1 inch at 100 yards with a gun that heavy with a bipod and a 25x scope needs to sell up and take up bird watching. </div></div>

As long as he dosent try and shoot the birds lol

 

[Runamuk]

Re: Something I've noticed in this forum

To each his/her own, everyone has a different reason for doing this or any other hobby and how they have fun is a personal experience. Once you reach the top (GAP/Tacops/Custom), where do you go from there? I've done that exercise on rifles, jeeps motorcycles and it's always taken ME to the same place. I can have just as much fun shooting my box stock 5R 223 at 300yds with my friends as I can shooting my fully decked out 6.5 at a 1000yds. I really don't need the very best to have fun, I just sometimes think I do.

 

[Iggy]

Re: Something I've noticed in this forum

Just a quick question, and maybe Frank can chime in a bit since he made a small reference to this. I have also heard about custom action not being as "durable" as 700's. So, from a machining standpoint if customs are designed to be stronger and created with better tolerances, why is it that they are more prone to failure?

I understand that in some environments tighter tolerances might keep the action from functioning properly (I saw lowlights video on the AW vs other rifles in competition), but what is it that makes a custom action so bad?

If were are talking strictly on the argument that spending more is better. Lets look at some of the examples here. If you buy a stock 700 and send it off to get all the work done the price is close to a "custom" action. With that in mind once the rest of work is done, the two guns are very similar in price, by a few hundred dollars. Now in this example the amount spent is very close, why would someone voice their opinion more over a custom instead of a 700 when they spent almost the same amount? Is it because the 700 was over a period of time and not all at once like a custom?

I'm not trying to start an argument over which is better, but I would like to know what specifically makes the 700 "just work" over a custom. I admit I ordered a custom, but it was because of the above reason. I feel based on what I read that I am getting something substantially better for just a bit more. Now, saying that I don't care if I really spent more for an "inferior" product, but I would like to know. I would like to know all my limitations and advantages in this case.

 

[Graham]

Re: Something I've noticed in this forum

I still shoot my AE for everything - matches included.

It shoots bugholes at 100. It shoots damn-near 1/2 MOA at 800 when wind isn't a factor. It pushes 180 VLD's from a 12-twist that stay supersonic here, at 750', for well beyond 1200 yards even in cold weather.

It has fallen off a bench into the dirt. It had tumbled end-over-end at ASC down a hillside. The paint has worn off the barrel in two spots from carrying it around. It was once used to try to pound open George's stuck bolt during a match. I have fallen on it once and dragged it around countless times in the rain and snow.

I don't need an AW. But I do need two AE's because I want to keep one looking purty.

 

[sniperaviator]

Re: Something I've noticed in this forum

I looked around and found custom rifles for $4000 (surgeon action, manners stock, bull barrel etc). I decided to buy a Rem 700 heavy varmint and build it up. It is less money, but it's not just the money. BUILDING the rifle, improving it, well, that is 1/2 the fun! I get to do research and find out all the cool stuff, how it goes together and learn the Rem 700's shortcomings. And....with a lot of work (but still more like $2500, not $4000) my Rem 700 will shoot with the customs.

I could have bought a Surgeon action and had a local smith build it up for about $3000. I might do that. Or I might buy a custom already built for $4000. But now I know a lot more than I did when I started out.

Do I still want a custom? Yes. That will be my NEXT rifle. Am I glad I "built" my Rem 700? Yes, I have learned a lot.

 

[jwSubMOA]

Re: Something I've noticed in this forum

I have been a machinist for nearly 20 years and have been building rifles and my own actions for 15.I am lucky in that I can do my own work and build my own "custom" rifles.I have friends that have high end multi-thousand dollar builds that shoot very well,but do occasionaly have minor issues.I'm kinda cheap and I very much enjoy the process of building my rifles.Being cheap most of my personal builds have been Mauser variations and Savages.For other folks I've used just about every action there is.In my opinion it comes down to what you're comfortable with,if you have the money get it built your way.My current personal rifle is basically a Parker-Hale M86 that i've pieced togather.Everything is trued and PH except for the Tubb Speedlock firing pin and the Adams and Bennett 1:10 barrel cut to 18.5".I made a Picatinny rail and put my 20x SS on it.With my handloads it'll shoot as well as my friends rifles or a least close enough to piss them off.I can say that the minute I can afford it an AW,TRG and DTA are coming home with me!

 

[AtOne]

Re: Something I've noticed in this forum

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I still shoot my AE for everything - matches included.

It shoots bugholes at 100. It shoots damn-near 1/2 MOA at 800 when wind isn't a factor. It pushes 180 VLD's from a 12-twist that stay supersonic here, at 750', for well beyond 1200 yards even in cold weather.

It has fallen off a bench into the dirt. It had tumbled end-over-end at ASC down a hillside. The paint has worn off the barrel in two spots from carrying it around. It was once used to try to pound open George's stuck bolt during a match. I have fallen on it once and dragged it around countless times in the rain and snow.

I don't need an AW. But I do need two AE's because I want to keep one looking purty.

</div></div>

Now I want one even more ! That's a great review Graham.