I was a water-bound squid on active duty, so I am out of my element (no pun intended) regarding ground-based defense tech. My basic question is thermal scope or night vision scope? The operational case would be two or four legged threats in a night time environment at less than 100 yards - most likely within 60 yards. I am talking purely defensive work. Period. Pistol caliber SBR with can. There are a few trees at the 60 yard mark, but most are 100 yards or more away. Thoughts?
Night Vision Somewhat Awkward Question
- Thread starter AlanG
- Start date
Yup, thermal is the answer. Takes a ton of effort to hide heat signature at close range, VS nv image can be camouflaged out.
This morning I had a solid conversation on this subject whose opinion I respect, and he recommended thermal on the premise that I would always know where the friendliest would be. I had been having second thoughts about that assumption, and your comments have independently confirmed that thought. My major concern would be accidentally engaging a neighbor. Thanks.
I can understand your position. In his case, I seriously doubt the two-legged predators would think ahead well enough to use camo, and out local coyotes haven’t picked up on that. ;-) OTOH, thermal seems ideal for local hog hunts. Thanks for helping.
The proper answer is both. There are pros/cons to each and having both gives you more capabilities and assurances.
Are you saying use the best tool for a particular problem, or are there any hybrid systems out there? Now that would be nice.
There are some older hybrid solutions like a pvs14 with coti, there are also new hybrid systems coming out (fusion) but they aren’t widespread yet.
There are a number of solutions to run both like a dual band on a helmet or a thermal scanner with pvs14, etc.
The PVS14 is going to be the most versatile solution but you give up detection. So get thermal for detection and NV for identification. Depending on the solution you go with you can then shoot with either NV or thermal.
There are a lot of combinations you can put together depending on the details of how you want to use it.
There are a number of solutions to run both like a dual band on a helmet or a thermal scanner with pvs14, etc.
The PVS14 is going to be the most versatile solution but you give up detection. So get thermal for detection and NV for identification. Depending on the solution you go with you can then shoot with either NV or thermal.
There are a lot of combinations you can put together depending on the details of how you want to use it.
Thanks for the additional info. Perhaps the hardest element of my solution is that I need to keep things as light as possible. Doubling the weight of my PCC seems like a non-starter. The research continues.
My vote would be neither an NV scope nor a thermal scope, but instead a head mounted PVS14.
Add a good red dot and an IR light to your rifle and your good to go. Add a laserbox if you want to get fancy.
My reasoning is that positive ID is critical for any type of defensive work, and NV is better for that. With a max range of 100Y and likely range of 60Y the wide FOV and ability to scan by just looking around are huge advantages. You really dont need magnification for that distance, so a dedicated scope is not needed IMO. Moreover a PVS14 is an awesome tool to have for many reasons outside of home defense.
Add a good red dot and an IR light to your rifle and your good to go. Add a laserbox if you want to get fancy.
My reasoning is that positive ID is critical for any type of defensive work, and NV is better for that. With a max range of 100Y and likely range of 60Y the wide FOV and ability to scan by just looking around are huge advantages. You really dont need magnification for that distance, so a dedicated scope is not needed IMO. Moreover a PVS14 is an awesome tool to have for many reasons outside of home defense.
That shouldn’t be an issue. The only thing you need additional on the gun is an ir light/laser. For the distances you are talking about you can get a pretty compact unit that doesn’t break the bank.
Run a dual band system on a helmet for both the NV and thermal.
How to get positive identification on intruders under 100 yards with a thermal:
“You better announce yourself before I poke a hole through you!”
“You better announce yourself before I poke a hole through you!”
You can't take for granted that you'll be the only one with night vision or thermal, so while your trying to ID with your NV and IR illuminator anyone with NV can see, their dropping you with a thermal topped weapon.
If you think they might be a friendly, pop a round over their head and you can determine their ID by the shit/piss stained pants with the thermal as their running away.
If you think they might be a friendly, pop a round over their head and you can determine their ID by the shit/piss stained pants with the thermal as their running away.
Night time will separate the haves from the have-nots.
But while NV and IR illuminator announces where you are to anybody that's equally equipped - thermal is going to do the same thing if they are equipped with thermal also. But if the homies go probing in the dark without NV equipment - they are going to have a very bad time.
But while NV and IR illuminator announces where you are to anybody that's equally equipped - thermal is going to do the same thing if they are equipped with thermal also. But if the homies go probing in the dark without NV equipment - they are going to have a very bad time.
- Nov 3, 2010
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Defense plans include a hell of a lot more than “I need a thermal”. Probably need to develop some sort of phase lines in your “area” that initiate required movement on your part. Communication is the number one failure with a plan. If you trust your neighbor enough to share your plan, then identifying them will be easy cause there is a contingency in there where that is covered. If you don’t trust your neighbor/s with your life/plan, then better tell them to not walk your general direction when the excrement makes physical contact with a hydro-electric powered oscillating air current distribution device.
Paging “The German” and “Horta”
The answer is night vision on your head. A PVS 14 is enough, no need for duals. Then mount an IR aiming laser on the gun with the 1x day optic of your choice.
The problem with thermal is the only way to shoot with it is to have it weapon mounted. That means to watch your property means being on the gun, either on a tripod, prone, holding the rifle, etc. it sucks to dance around a tripod for more than 5 minutes searching for targets. Mounting a 1x NV/Thermal NOD on your head is 100x more convenient for keeping watch. A 14 on a helmet with an IR laser on the gun will stack bodies wholesale, but if your first device is head mounted thermal, you still have no way to shoot. So get the 14 first.
If you want the ultimate solution, mount the 14 on a bridge and put a thermal monocular next to it on the other eye. Now you have both. But if you can only swing one unit, for defense, it’s got to be night vision.
The problem with thermal is the only way to shoot with it is to have it weapon mounted. That means to watch your property means being on the gun, either on a tripod, prone, holding the rifle, etc. it sucks to dance around a tripod for more than 5 minutes searching for targets. Mounting a 1x NV/Thermal NOD on your head is 100x more convenient for keeping watch. A 14 on a helmet with an IR laser on the gun will stack bodies wholesale, but if your first device is head mounted thermal, you still have no way to shoot. So get the 14 first.
If you want the ultimate solution, mount the 14 on a bridge and put a thermal monocular next to it on the other eye. Now you have both. But if you can only swing one unit, for defense, it’s got to be night vision.
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To add to my previous comment, consider for a second just the ability to move. If your only NOD is weapon mounted, you have to either move with the gun always up, or lose visual of what is happening while you move. Mount the NOD on your head, and you can freely move, use your hands, whatever, without losing visual.
Remember also that thermal can’t look out a window.
Remember also that thermal can’t look out a window.
In an effort to dispel just a bit of my ignorance on this subject - Do I understand correctly that the IR laser and PVS14 take the place of a visual spectrum flashlight/laser and my normal eyesight?
Trying to use a helmet-mounted PVS14 while aiming using a red dot of other illuminated sight sounds very awkward. How is that done? Or am I over-imagining the problem?
The NVG amplifies light (both visible and IR) and presents it to your eye/s as a monochromatic image. When there is no ambient light, you'd need supplemental IR illumination (IR illuminator), otherwise without it, the night vision device will see nothing but darkness. You basically use IR illumination the same way you would use a visible spectrum flashlight, with the benefit of not producing a large visible light signature to anyone that doesn't have night vision. The IR illuminator/NVG combo does not replace a visible spectrum flashlight.
Example of having ambient light (visible and IR) but still seeing darkness is something like heavily forested or jungle areas where the vegetation blocks/filters much of the ambient light (visible and IR) and creates a lot of shadows. This is a scenario where supplemental IR illumination would help you see into the shadows.
Example 2 - You're inside a building, tunnel, cave, etc. where there is nothing inside that produces ambient light and there is no ambient light entering through cracks, gaps, windows, etc., again you would need supplemental IR lighting in conjunction with your night vision device (assuming you don't want to switch to visible light).
The IR laser is your aiming pointer should you choose to use one. Look at target, superimpose the laser onto the target. The current trend is what is called "passive aiming" which is basically aiming by looking through the red dot with a head/helmet mounted night vision device. With practice/repetition, it's essentially no different to you raising the firearm up and bringing the red dot optic to your eyeball without night vision. The image is only mildly different (no need to get too in depth on this part) but as you focus on the target and raise the weapon up in alignment with the night vision device (the night vision being aligned to your eyeball), the dot will appear in your field of view.
There are pros and cons to active (projecting a laser) vs passive aiming.
You should go watch a few basic night vision 101 videos which will make it easier to see how it all works.
There are a lot of options for setups and some of it is preference and a lot of it depends on your usage.
Then you just have to decide how broke you want to be. Just remember that you get what you pay for.
There are a lot of options for setups and some of it is preference and a lot of it depends on your usage.
Then you just have to decide how broke you want to be. Just remember that you get what you pay for.
The engineer in me thanks you. So does the rest of my brain.
I2 for target ID, movement and most shooting. Thermal for target detection/recognition, some shooting. For fighting, head mounted I2 devices (PVS-14/dual tube goggles) rule. NV compatible red dot plus an IR laser/illuminator covers all the shooting possibilities, and yes, you still need the white light.
To add thermal for target detection, you can add a COTI, bridge a full thermal unit like the NOX or just hand hold a small thermal device as needed, While thermal on the gun is an excellent solution for hunting critters, it is very limiting for fighting purposes.
Take a class, preferably one where you can see all the options before you commit to buy something. This stuff is expensive and has a pretty steep learning curve. Often you can rent gear for the class so you can see better what will work for your needs BEFORE you buy stuff you can't actually use.
To add thermal for target detection, you can add a COTI, bridge a full thermal unit like the NOX or just hand hold a small thermal device as needed, While thermal on the gun is an excellent solution for hunting critters, it is very limiting for fighting purposes.
Take a class, preferably one where you can see all the options before you commit to buy something. This stuff is expensive and has a pretty steep learning curve. Often you can rent gear for the class so you can see better what will work for your needs BEFORE you buy stuff you can't actually use.
Lots of good ideas. And, yes, I had noticed the cost territory I’m contemplating walking into. <sigh>. Gotta see what my piggy banks says. The usual rule of thumb in engineering projects (my background) is that added features, extra convenience, increased packaging density, reduced weight, range, shorter delivery schedule, and/or greater power always translates as extra cost. Only with time does the cost of those features occasionally come down.
Cory, you're always spot on. Hope all is well.
Thank you sir, I do try. All well here at Gunsite, on project now doing video on long range shooting with NV, Working out to 2000 yds, should be pretty cool. As always, anything we can do to help here at Gunsite, please let me know.
Budget is always an issue, hence the suggestion to take a class with a rental unit. Often the rental cost can be applied to a purchase, and the clas is money well spent so you actually get what you need/want without buying twice as much stuff that realy won't work after all.
Maybe if there’s an issue we could trade you for Vic.
You know, if someone has to get voted off the island and we want to keep useful people.
Sounds like someone that lacks experience and try’s to make up for it with off topic false memes
Yeah very useful to have people that don’t back up their service after the sale BS and are active in suppressing full power Ir options.
Brilliant
Plenty of people bridge i2 with thermal. And a ecoti doesn’t even come close to what a dedicated 640 thermal can offer for detection.
I’ve talked to a fair amount of people that didn’t like it. Maybe 50/50.
I don’t have e Coti. I have a psq36 Yes it’s getting old but wirks better for me
Have a skeet and wp14. My brain couldn’t do it.
I don’t disagree, for some it works, for some it doesn’t which is why it’s not a bad idea to rent/borrow/try before you buy.
Also with a RH25, you can collimate the image so it might bridge/fuse better for some through the margin adjustment feature which you don’t get on the skeet or the nox18 afaik.
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I hear sone people just focus on one or the other.
There are places that rent this stuff fwiw OP
There are places that rent this stuff fwiw OP
I run dual band and if you had any experience or done any research you’d know it doesn’t work like fusion for many people but that doesn’t make it any less effective.
Sometimes it fuses and sometimes you focus on one more than the other. Sometimes you run one at a time.
Fact is, since I started running both on a bridge I’ve had a notable increase in night time hunting success and it’s the easiest solution I’ve tried out of several different setups.
You should talk less and learn more
I guess you missed the part where I researched. Bought bridge and k clips. Bought thermal and night vision etc.
You don’t know what you don’t know about me and my experience or research
Sure don’t because you didn’t say any of that before you made a comment that’s patently false.
Can only infer based on what you post and so far I’ve inferred you don’t know very much.
Sorry I didn’t include that part of the plan. Yes, this will be a team event. So far, the only intruders have been coyotes down his way. I’m just a guy hat likes to plan, knowing that all plans will go sideways.
this works
and it's funny
and it's funny
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