Spotter / Shooter Communication

[Longshot231]

I wonder does anyone besides myself get frustrated with the communication between the spotter and the shooter? It doesn't matter whether you are the spotter or the shooter.

Sometimes I wonder if some folks are using digital watches because they don't seem to understand clock positions.

When shooting at steel plates at some ranges with others I cannot understand why some folks cannot be talked on to a target.

For example, I might say, "Do you see the patch of trees, 2 o'clock about 700 yards?"

Their reply might be what patch of trees when it's the only patch out there. Then the frustration begins.

When I finally clarify the patch of trees, I might say something like, "The target is at 7 o'clock from the trees, about 50 yards by a small bush. It's a steel coyote in a patch of dirt."

The reply comes back; "What?" Or they might say, "Do you mean the one at 300 yards?" I had just told them the range is about 700 yards!

Then there is the inevitable "You were a little off on that last shot!"

Oh, and when I'm spotting and offering wind corrections, they don't some to understand the concept of holding left or right. If I say hold right 3.5 MILs they think that the target should be placed to the right of their crosshairs in the scope!

Shooting is supposed to be an enjoyable experience but my frustration peaks when people (even experienced shooters) cannot use basic communication skills.

I try to talk before hand with a shooting partner only to have things fall apart at the range and I basically give up.

Does anyone else have this problem? What did you do besides go shooting by yourself?

I tried sending videos to some friends to get them to understand the concept of good communication but when asked if they watched the videos, the answer is always "no." WTF!

Anyway, these are great videos if people would watch the darn thing to understand the concept.

 

[roostercogburn98]

Communication is the biggest enemy of teamwork

 

[Longshot231]

Communication is the biggest enemy of teamwork

Do you mean that lack of and poor communication is the enemy of teamwork?

 

[roostercogburn98]

Do you mean that lack of and poor communication is the enemy of teamwork?

Root problem is communicating. Lack of, improper, misunderstood, not on the same page/terms, I could go on and on.

 

[ArTeeKay]

Training together is the key. I've RO'd enough team matches to say it's always crystal clear who comes into it blind and who comes squared away. Being able to have a clear, frank conversation about 1) expectations, 2) competence, and 3) who's making the calls, makes all the difference.

 

[308pirate]

I wonder does anyone besides myself get frustrated with the communication between the spotter and the shooter? It doesn't matter whether you are the spotter or the shooter.

Sometimes I wonder if some folks are using digital watches because they don't seem to understand clock positions.

When shooting at steel plates at some ranges with others I cannot understand why some folks cannot be talked on to a target.

For example, I might say, "Do you see the patch of trees, 2 o'clock about 700 yards?"

Their reply might be what patch of trees when it's the only patch out there. Then the frustration begins.

When I finally clarify the patch of trees, I might say something like, "The target is at 7 o'clock from the trees, about 50 yards by a small bush. It's a steel coyote in a patch of dirt."

The reply comes back; "What?" Or they might say, "Do you mean the one at 300 yards?" I had just told them the range is about 700 yards!

Then there is the inevitable "You were a little off on that last shot!"

Oh, and when I'm spotting and offering wind corrections, they don't some to understand the concept of holding left or right. If I say hold right 3.5 MILs they think that the target should be placed to the right of their crosshairs in the scope!

Shooting is supposed to be an enjoyable experience but my frustration peaks when people (even experienced shooters) cannot use basic communication skills.

I try to talk before hand with a shooting partner only to have things fall apart at the range and I basically give up.

Does anyone else have this problem? What did you do besides go shooting by yourself?

I tried sending videos to some friends to get them to understand the concept of good communication but when asked if they watched the videos, the answer is always "no." WTF!

Anyway, these are great videos if people would watch the darn thing to understand the concept.

Yes

That's why I've very selective with whom I shoot with. All of my LR shooting buds are former infantrymen and understand the clock system, proper communications, mil hold offs, and how to give clear commands.

Most people can't grasp the concept that the spotter is a fire director, and not there to tell you where you missed and by how much.

Sometimes I just laugh when I'm on the line at Thunder Valley with my amplifying ear pro on and hear some of the idiots trying to spot for each other around me.

 

[308pirate]

And yes I LOL at the morons calling out misses in inches or in vague terms like "a little bit".

That's some precision right there......

 

[Longshot231]

Has anyone else seen this mistake?

I'll tell someone to "hold right XXX MILs / MOA." Then when they fire the shot, I see it go even further left. I ask them if they are holding right and they say yes.

"Okay then, hold a little further right by XXX MILS / MOA." The next shot goes even further left.

"Are you holding right?"

"Yes but there's something wrong with this rifle or scope."

I've learned after this to draw a picture of the reticle and show them that the target should be to the left of the vertical crosshair because the wind is from the right.

Then the revelation comes out that they were putting the target to the right of the vertical crosshair because they thought that they had to hold the target on the right side.

I don't mind helping people but the ones that don't pay attention are the ones that are really frustrating.

 

[Defender3]

The biggest frustration I have mentoring people on Range 4 at Quantico (1,035yds) is comms. Even when I give them a range card with the identified targets, and a brief on how we'll communicate as spotter / shooter, they always want to default as stated, "how many inches?" "A little bit or a lot?" "What do you mean a hold?" etc., etc. Too many don't even know how their optic functions, the reticle or how to dial / hold. And don't even try to explain that it's an angle...

 

[Alpine 338]

A.D.D., I think more and more people have it these days than we think.

 

[37L1]

Some don't know which way to turn the scope windage/elevation knobs to get the correction they want. They turn it the wrong way, see the shot is even further off and continue to turn it the wrong way, rinse, repeat.

WTF?

 

[Longshot231]

Some don't know which way to turn the scope windage/elevation knobs to get the correction they want. They turn it the wrong way, see the shot is even further off and continue to turn it the wrong way, rinse, repeat.

WTF?

I have to tell the same people over and over again on which way to turn the knobs, despite the fact it tells you which direction on most scopes.

 

[ArTeeKay]

It's pretty important not to conflate shooter competence with ability to communicate. @Longshot231, I think you touched on this in post one. Lots of shooters simply have no idea how to utilize their weapons optimally. That is a problem in itself, and when that gets combined with a team shooting situation, which is typically under time and performance pressure, communication falls apart typically for both parties. You're not magically going to make your buddy understand how hold offs work on the firing line in the middle of a stage. It's just not going to happen.

These problems manifest themselves most distinctly when shooting stages that are UKD and meant to be ranged with a reticle. There end up being 3 groups of teams. 1) Teams that simply don't have the skill set or necessary equipment , and so no amount of good communication will help them complete the task (folks using a duplex reticle cause they brought their hunting rifles to the match, for example). 2) Teams compromised of individuals who can perform the task individually, but because of time pressure, need to divide the task into parts and share duties. This is where communication failure rears it's head. Because each individual likely has his own way of approaching the task, but they've not discussed strategy and roles ahead of time, they end up duplicating work, argue over who's data is more valid, and end up either missing, or simply don't engage a portion of the targets. Group 3) has their shit squared away, because the critical communication happened way before they ever laid down behind their rifles. Once time starts, each person knows their role, and they simply input and output data based on the tools they have at their disposal. Plenty of time for discussion about what worked and what didn't after I call time on the stage.

We fix spotter/shooter and shooter/shooter communication problems off the firing line. Making sure individuals have a baseline understanding of their equipment and it's function is critical for that. Otherwise, if I haven't confirmed a guy knows exactly what I mean when I say "dial 1.4 elevation, hold .6 left, send it", and fails to perform because of that lack of understanding, the communication failure falls on me as well. It seems to me military training attempts to universalize this baseline of knowledge and vernacular, so any spotter shooter pair can, with a minimum of sorting out the basics, head out and be effective. Your every day PRS or NRL shooter team is going to have to spend some time getting on the same page about what terms mean what, and who's skill set best fits what tasks in a pair fire scenario.

It's fun to bash incompetence, especially for some of the things we take for granted, but if a dude can't hit a target because he's not understanding what I'm telling him, that's on me. If he does understand what I'm telling him, and I've determined that he can in fact perform the task, it is then much more satisfying to berate him for being a fucking hack, why couldn't you hit that fucking diamond, it was 250 yards, you dumb mfer...

 

[Longshot231]

It's pretty important not to conflate shooter competence with ability to communicate. @Longshot231, I think you touched on this in post one. Lots of shooters simply have no idea how to utilize their weapons optimally. That is a problem in itself, and when that gets combined with a team shooting situation, which is typically under time and performance pressure, communication falls apart typically for both parties. You're not magically going to make your buddy understand how hold offs work on the firing line in the middle of a stage. It's just not going to happen.

These problems manifest themselves most distinctly when shooting stages that are UKD and meant to be ranged with a reticle. There end up being 3 groups of teams. 1) Teams that simply don't have the skill set or necessary equipment , and so no amount of good communication will help them complete the task (folks using a duplex reticle cause they brought their hunting rifles to the match, for example). 2) Teams compromised of individuals who can perform the task individually, but because of time pressure, need to divide the task into parts and share duties. This is where communication failure rears it's head. Because each individual likely has his own way of approaching the task, but they've not discussed strategy and roles ahead of time, they end up duplicating work, argue over who's data is more valid, and end up either missing, or simply don't engage a portion of the targets. Group 3) has their shit squared away, because the critical communication happened way before they ever laid down behind their rifles. Once time starts, each person knows their role, and they simply input and output data based on the tools they have at their disposal. Plenty of time for discussion about what worked and what didn't after I call time on the stage.

We fix spotter/shooter and shooter/shooter communication problems off the firing line. Making sure individuals have a baseline understanding of their equipment and it's function is critical for that. Otherwise, if I haven't confirmed a guy knows exactly what I mean when I say "dial 1.4 elevation, hold .6 left, send it", and fails to perform because of that lack of understanding, the communication failure falls on me as well. It seems to me military training attempts to universalize this baseline of knowledge and vernacular, so any spotter shooter pair can, with a minimum of sorting out the basics, head out and be effective. Your every day PRS or NRL shooter team is going to have to spend some time getting on the same page about what terms mean what, and who's skill set best fits what tasks in a pair fire scenario.

It's fun to bash incompetence, especially for some of the things we take for granted, but if a dude can't hit a target because he's not understanding what I'm telling him, that's on me. If he does understand what I'm telling him, and I've determined that he can in fact perform the task, it is then much more satisfying to berate him for being a fucking hack, why couldn't you hit that fucking diamond, it was 250 yards, you dumb mfer...

Well said. I explained to a young friend the other day that, long range precision shooting is 90% homework and 10% shooting. The homework might even be more than that. I'd even go with a 98%/2%.

I worked in another profession that I don't want to get into detail on. With that said, there was a co-worker that kept asking me what I said and if what I was asking for was correct.

For example, let's relate it to shooting.

Suppose I say, "Come up .6 and left .5"

He would say, "Do you want me to Come up .6 and left .5?"

"Affirmative. Come up .6 and left .5"

"Do you want me to Come up .6 and left .5?"

"That's correct. Come up .6 and left .5"

"Do you want me to Come up .6 and left .5?"

"Yes! What the hell do you think I said? I want you to come up .6 and left .5"

"Do you want me to Come up .6 and left .5?"

"WTF do you have in your ears? Come up .6 and left .5"

"Okay. I'll come up .6 and left .5"

I kid you not. this person was a royal PITA.

Anyway, it's so much more enjoyable shooting with people that know what they are doing.

 

[ArTeeKay]

Well said. I explained to a young friend the other day that, long range precision shooting is 90% homework and 10% shooting. The homework might even be more than that. I'd even go with a 98%/2%.

That's about the size of it, I think. Guys lately are shooting a half moa group at 100 and saying "Ok, I'm ready for the mile." Similarly, a guy who's pretty good at barricade bench rest decides he's gonna go crush it at a field match with a hunting buddy. Both of these guys are in for a rude wake up call.

 

[roostercogburn98]

Yes

That's why I've very selective with whom I shoot with. All of my LR shooting buds are former infantrymen and understand the clock system, proper communications, mil hold offs, and how to give clear commands.

Most people can't grasp the concept that the spotter is a fire director, and not there to tell you where you missed and by how much.

Sometimes I just laugh when I'm on the line at Thunder Valley with my amplifying ear pro on and hear some of the idiots trying to spot for each other around me.

You’ve probably laughed at me when I shot my 50 there

 

[Longshot231]

You’ve probably laughed at me when I shot my 50 there

According to their rules, the .50 BMG is prohibited.

 

[roostercogburn98]

According to their rules, the .50 BMG is prohibited.

Way back in the day he allowed it. I ahot there around 2012-2015.


There wasn’t a covered firing line when I was there either. You just backed your truck up to the firing point and kept your gear in the bed of your truck if you weren’t using it.

 

[Longshot231]

Way back in the day he allowed it. I ahot there around 2012-2015

So you were the one that ruined it for everyone else

 

[roostercogburn98]

So you were the one that ruined it for everyone else

I sure hope not. I don’t think I lobbed any large hunks into the unknown. He used to put out these big square clay targets for the bigger guns to shoot at so we didn’t mess up any steel he had there.

 

[akmike47]

Has anyone else seen this mistake?

I'll tell someone to "hold right XXX MILs / MOA." Then when they fire the shot, I see it go even further left. I ask them if they are holding right and they say yes.

"Okay then, hold a little further right by XXX MILS / MOA." The next shot goes even further left.

"Are you holding right?"

"Yes but there's something wrong with this rifle or scope."

I've learned after this to draw a picture of the reticle and show them that the target should be to the left of the vertical crosshair because the wind is from the right.

Then the revelation comes out that they were putting the target to the right of the vertical crosshair because they thought that they had to hold the target on the right side.

I don't mind helping people but the ones that don't pay attention are the ones that are really frustrating.

Then say aim to the right of the target 1 mil. If they are inexperienced it's not really their fault if they don't understand.

 

[Longshot231]

Then say aim to the right of the target 1 mil. If they are inexperienced it's not really their fault if they don't understand.

Good point. Maybe I should say "hold to the right of the target." That way the transition to understanding what "hold right" means will be easier.

That takes care of one problem with 99 to go

 

[akmike47]

Good point. Maybe I should say "hold to the right of the target." That way the transition to understanding what "hold right" means will be easier.

That takes care of one problem with 99 to go

I always say that shit I know what hold right means, but you know how it goes may get in a rush and fuck it up lol. I try to explain shit like we are all 5.

“See the Bush with the big rock to the right of it about 300 out, there’s 3 trees in a group 200yd beyond that, now look 45 degrees left back this way about 25yards and there’s a target in a dead patch of grass” then when they find it throw in a “daddies got your back baby girl ”

Those are shit directions since I’m just making up shit but you get what I mean, Dumbass will see one of the 12 things I point out eventually. Lol