Springfield 1903/A1 Accuracy potential

JG26_Irish

JG26_Irish

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Minuteman
Oct 17, 2013
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Morehead, KY
#1
Many years ago, I came into possession of a pristine Remington mfg version of the Springfield 1903/A1 in 30/06. This rifle had clearly been well cared for and remains in very good condition. I shot it one time when I got it, cleaned it and tucked it away in the back of the safe and nearly forgot about it. I recently moved and in the course of relocating the guns and safe, I got it out and was admiring the old rifle. It has a pretty decent set of iron sights and while I shot NRA hi-power matches years ago, I never used this old rifle for such. Mostly we shot old Garands or M14/M1A's back then. Sometimes the match directors would let me use my FAL also. A few guys were using AR15's and today those nearly dominate. I never got to see an 03/A1 compete.

Lately, I have been wondering how well an old dog like this might shoot at longer distances such as 500 and 1000yds? I know they used to shoot these old rifles at the Camp Perry matches, for all I know maybe they still do? I still have some old DCM surplus ammo in the original Garand clips and just picked up a few boxes of Hornady Match ammo for it. I have access to a nice 300yd range these days and another at 200yds. What is the accuracy potential for an old original 03/A1 with the open sights? Just wondering what I should expect from it?

Irish
 
#2
Remington made Springfield 1903 at 100 yards

The three shot groups illustrated was fired off the bench using 200 grain cast bullets at 100 yards with iron sights and 70-year-old eyes.
 

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#3
The 1903s are without a doubt the most accurate vintage surplus rifles out there.

Yes they still shoot them at Perry as well as other CMP GSM matches. The CMP puts the '03s in their own category separating them from other vintage rifles for that reason. In CMP matches they give Gold, Silver, and Bronze badges when certain scores are fired. The cut off for those scores are higher for the '03s then the Garand or "Other" surplus military rifles (the "M" in GSM).

Mind you, these are "as issued" rifles. Last Saturday I fired my M1903A3 in a Springfield match. Its totally USGI, barrel, stock, etc. Using the Greek ball M-2 it was easy to clean the 200 yard prone slow fire target.

Granted GSM matches are fired at 200 yards, but they also dominate the Vintage Sniper Matches fired at 300 and 600 yards.

I will go out on a limb and say the as-issued 100 year old Springfield Rifles will out shoot any of the now issued. arms room guns using ball ammo out there today.

No they would out shoot a supper match M1A or White Oak AR service rifle.........but stock M14s, M16s, M4s or any body out there's service rifle.

I'm talking accuracy, not combat. Though in CMP matches I can load and fire 10 rounds with stripper clips faster then I can shoot 10 round out of my Garand, (accurately) it wouldn't be my choice as a combat rifle.

My only combat experience is in the Jungles of SE Asia, I doubt it would have competed with my M16a1 in those conditions. But it is more accurate by a long shot.

Personally if it was me, I'd dust off your 'A1 and start shooting CMP matches with your 'A1, see for your self, it'll out shoot any other vintage surplus rifle out there.

Warning though, you're gonna get hooked, you'll end up with another action and end up building a M1903A4 for the Vintage Sniper Matches.
 
#4
They are about MOA rifles with match ammo in my experience, 1.0-1.5. Ammo must be good ammo, like M72 Match or Federal Gold Metal match. M2 ball will roughly double your group size, 5 shot groups. No rifle will shoot crappy ammo well, not that M2 is crappy, just not match grade.

My friend's SP 1 would equal that accuracy, which is unusal. I was amazed a light barrel AR could do that with my eyes and factory sights, about 58 yo at the time, and the ammo was surplus 55 grain?
 
#5
Complete novice to vintage iron shooting, 11 shots at 100 yards using 155 gr hand loaded A-Max.

13743921594_8797537be3_z.jpg


I have had several comments of disbelief from hunters sighting/playing in the offseason that a 95 year old, as-issued rifle with a 70 year old barrel, using open iron sights and a sling, is capable of this at 100 yards. Especially with a round like the .30-06.

However, nobody with experience firing a 1903 would be surprised or even impressed; they would be giving pointers on how to improve further. Learn sight picture with the irons and welcome to the brave new (old) world.
 
#6
Oh, one things I learned right away, at least for me: shoot it like a bench rested hunting rifle and you will be disappointed. It's not a rifle that suffers poor or sloppy fundamentals (positions, NPA, grip, pull). Mine lets me know immediately if I'm slipping.
 
#7
Mike Radford is on the money. M72 match uses a nearly identical projectile as the old M1 Cal .30 Ball round, and is quite accurate.

The Remington M1903 was manufactured to wartime tolerances. My shooter M1903 is a July of '42 Remington showing honest wear inside and out and will hold the 9 ring or better of an SR as long as I keep my head out of my ass.

Bore quality is one of the many factors affecting accuracy of the M1903. Service and match M1903 barrels were cut rifled and can produce excellent results... the match barrel was cut using a double scrape cutter resulting in a smoother finish.

To give you an idea as to the uniformity of the M1903 barrel, take a look at a star guage record card:
standard.jpg


Production barrels could pass star gauging or air guaging (used after 1939). Wartime service barrels may show looser tolerances as a concession to accelerate production.

Card above is for my 1921 NM... will have to shoot it as a bucket list item
standard.jpg
 
#8
There is nothing more fun than outshooting the high tech modern crowd at the local range. One of my best range days was outshooting the local Sheriff Dept. Swat sniper, who had a tricked out Rem. 700 and high cost Leupold scope, hand loaded match ammo and I was using a 3.5 power PU with Soviet Extra Match. He claimed sub-MOA groups until we took down our targets and half the PU targets were sub-MOA and his groups were mostly not. The silence was deafening.

An M39 will shoot about the same accuaracy with D166 or Soviet Extra Match ammo. Some experts think that the M39 was the pinacle of military issue bolt action rifles. With heavy free floated barrels from Tikka, FN and Seko, coupled with match grade ammo from Finland loaded by Lapau, never assume your 03 is gonna win. The M28s, 28-30 and M30s were no slouch either, with Simo H. getting 500 confirmed kills using no optics, the highest scoring sniper in history period.
 
#9
Dan, that is great information. I have always heard that many O3 barrels would pass the Starr guage and Air guage standards, which were essentially match grade standards. My information says that many USMC snipers were guaged but some of the later ones were not marked. The 1903A4s were all Air guaged so those that say their barrels were no different than a 1903A3 are incorrect.
 
#11
Mike Radford said:
Dan, that is great information. I have always heard that many O3 barrels would pass the Starr guage and Air guage standards, which were essentially match grade standards. My information says that many USMC snipers were guaged but some of the later ones were not marked. The 1903A4s were all Air guaged so those that say their barrels were no different than a 1903A3 are incorrect.
Click to expand...

Spot on, my friend.

Phil Sharpe's "The Rifle in America" 1947 edition provides the A4 barrel reference. Dimensions were held to .300 to .301 and rifling to .308 to .309... they would have to be air gauged, as the star gauge was phased out in 1939... but that would be a swag on my part because that isn't specifically addressed in by Sharpe. The 03A3 and 03A4 never really held my interest, I was always a M1903 geek.
 
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#16
Getting back on track, the OP was asking about as issued rifles.

As Mike stated, vintage rifles are capable of far greater accuracy then your average shooter would believe... even with issue sights.

Went to the range this morning with a Type 38 infantry rifle and some hand loads (prvi brass, 37.1gr H4831 ,WLR and Hornady ,264 160gr rn) at 100 yards:

15 rnds @ 100 yds 1.88" measured from outside the two furthest shots
standard.jpg


Most rifles of that era with a very good rifle, quality ammunition and a competent shooter behind it can produce surprising results.
 
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#17
Excellent example Dan and good shooting. The Japanese rifles are definitely not junk, as many seem to think. I have fired a bunch of Type 97 and 99 snipers and with good ammo they will typcially do about 1.5 MOA. Biggest surprise with a Japanese rifle was a 0.87 inch 5 shot group at 100 yds using Norma in a Kokura 99 sniper with very cloudy 2.5X scope. I would like to repeat those results but have not had much range time in the last year.

I often see people point out the minimum standard for a given military rifle but many of them will greatly exceed that minimum, especially with good ammo.
 
#18
For something with such fine sights and used with such poor eyesight as mine they do okay....

P82A0124_zpsf11552aa.jpg


P82A0119_zps136fb273.jpg


Deffinitely get yourself a PJ Ohare sight micrometer or a repro of the micrometer available at Creedmoor so you can have repeatable elevation settings.
 
#19
Mike Radford said:
Excellent example Dan and good shooting. The Japanese rifles are definitely not junk, as many seem to think. I have fired a bunch of Type 97 and 99 snipers and with good ammo they will typcially do about 1.5 MOA. Biggest surprise with a Japanese rifle was a 0.87 inch 5 shot group at 100 yds using Norma in a Kokura 99 sniper with very cloudy 2.5X scope. I would like to repeat those results but have not had much range time in the last year.

I often see people point out the minimum standard for a given military rifle but many of them will greatly exceed that minimum, especially with good ammo.
Click to expand...

I am green with envy Mike... have never had the opportunity to shoot a Japanese sniper.

Also, to all the shooters who say they would put their Swede Mauser up against the M1903... try it with the original sights... ALL Swede M96 rifles were originally fitted with barleycorn front sights and a v notch rear sight, not the square notch and straight post fitted now... the square notch and straight post sights are a retrofit. M94 and M94/14 carbines still have the barleycorn sights. Barleycorn sights lend themselves to index of elevation problems that can bite the shooter in the ass if the shooter is not taking careful aim. Barleycorn sights separate the men from the boys.
 
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#20
pmclaine...Well done, Sir

The M1905 rear sight on the M1903 needs the O'Hare micrometer for fine adjustment... I find myself using the field of view notch (looks like Christmas tree on the sight leaf) rather than the aperture on days with less than full sunlight. That sight is tough on aging eyes.
 
#22
ChrisBCS said:
Complete novice to vintage iron shooting, 11 shots at 100 yards using 155 gr hand loaded A-Max.

13743921594_8797537be3_z.jpg
Click to expand...

Its nice to see you dont make things easy for your self by using small bore targets.

Get yourself some 100 yard SR1 scaled targets and you will be able to impress people more as the larger 10 and X rings will have most of your group riding full value scores. National Target sells some great targets. You can have the full target or just the centers ordered through them.

Dont be any harder on yourself than you have to be.
 
#23
Will do, pmclaine!

The local rifle range only has zeroing targets available, and these small bores were the only black center targets I could get my hands on at any of the LGS' around here. Good sight picture, but very small scoring rings ;)
 
#24
Many thanks lads. That is some good info and great shooting. It had been so long since I shot this rifle last that I really could not recall how well it shot, other than it was OK and on tgt from a makeshift, not too steady rest. We have a local centerfire match coming up soon and it includes a open site class. I thought I might drag the old warhorse out to play.

Irish
 
#25
kraigWY said:
The 1903s are without a doubt the most accurate vintage surplus rifles out there.

Yes they still shoot them at Perry as well as other CMP GSM matches. The CMP puts the '03s in their own category separating them from other vintage rifles for that reason. In CMP matches they give Gold, Silver, and Bronze badges when certain scores are fired. The cut off for those scores are higher for the '03s then the Garand or "Other" surplus military rifles (the "M" in GSM).

Mind you, these are "as issued" rifles. Last Saturday I fired my M1903A3 in a Springfield match. Its totally USGI, barrel, stock, etc. Using the Greek ball M-2 it was easy to clean the 200 yard prone slow fire target.

Granted GSM matches are fired at 200 yards, but they also dominate the Vintage Sniper Matches fired at 300 and 600 yards.

I will go out on a limb and say the as-issued 100 year old Springfield Rifles will out shoot any of the now issued. arms room guns using ball ammo out there today.

No they would out shoot a supper match M1A or White Oak AR service rifle.........but stock M14s, M16s, M4s or any body out there's service rifle.

I'm talking accuracy, not combat. Though in CMP matches I can load and fire 10 rounds with stripper clips faster then I can shoot 10 round out of my Garand, (accurately) it wouldn't be my choice as a combat rifle.

My only combat experience is in the Jungles of SE Asia, I doubt it would have competed with my M16a1 in those conditions. But it is more accurate by a long shot.

Personally if it was me, I'd dust off your 'A1 and start shooting CMP matches with your 'A1, see for your self, it'll out shoot any other vintage surplus rifle out there.

Warning though, you're gonna get hooked, you'll end up with another action and end up building a M1903A4 for the Vintage Sniper Matches.
Click to expand...

Hello Mr Kraig, Blake again, how ya doing?


If you know, Mr Kraig, how would you say a L42A1 Sniper would compare to a top notch 1903 NM or 1903A4/1941 as far as accuracy? Provided we leave the ability of the optics out of this... And do you know what receiver was used to build the L42A1?

Really dont seem to hear very much about the L42A1`s but they are very interesting rifles and I would love to have one. I remember there being someone on the forum who had one for sale a while ago, now that would be a gem to snatch up but unfortunately out of my price range.

Thanks as always sir.
Blake.
 
#26
I am not Kraig but the L42A1 is a thing of beauty. I have one and have fired it a couple or three range trips.

They are built on WW2 vintage No. 4 MkI sniper/TR(telescopic rifle) receivers and utilized the same No. 32 WW 2 era 4X scopes. Some consider these to be the best scopes of WW2 since they had repeatable return to zero when adjusted and had distinct clicks for windage and elevation. Optics are good and they are pretty rugged and fairly weatherproof. As a result they were not considered obsolete. The guns were rebarreled with heavy floated barrels in 308 and new heavy stocks.

Mine is a 1 MOA rifle with US M118 match ammo at its best and more like 1.3 average. Sweet rifle and nice to look at.
 
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#27
Someday. Someday I will have my dream Springfield. It's second on my list right now. Mind you, I'm going for performance over historical value/accuracy. I'm hoping I can get James River Armory to build me a hybrid Remington 1903 "modified" with a C-stock, Criterion barrel and milled parts. Unfortunately, my current policy on firearms acquisition is one firearm at a time and my dream 1903 is behind my dream Remington Model 37. And I have to finish selling off my current "collection." But I will get my 03 and it's going look like an A1. Won't quite be an A1 but only Springfield snobs will know the difference.
 
#28
Forgetful Coyote:

To be honest I've never fired the L42A1, but the only way I could judge it is by how it compares with the M1903A4 or M1903AI in the Marine configuration in the CMP's Vintage Sniper Matches, that is they don't.

The 1903 Series dominate, (although it was Garand's that won the VSM in Cody last Sept.

It is hard to beat the 1903 action in the accuracy department. When the Army chose an action to build their Mann Accuracy devices (a barreled action used to test ammo accuracy) they chose the 1903 action because of its accuracy.

As mentioned that is why the Springfields are given their own class as is the Garand. All other pre 1954 rifles are in the "other" Military Category and have lower scores needed to obtain the Achievement Awards the CMP provides.
 
#30
You got me, sorry, I was thinking of its forefather the The No. 4(T) was made from selected No. 4 Lee-Enfields, made by H&H. So disregard my comments. Without having ever played with one I can't make a judgment comparing it to the M1903A4.
 
#31
Mike Radford said:
I am not Kraig but the L42A1 is a thing of beauty. I have one and have fired it a couple or three range trips.

They are built on WW2 vintage No. 4 MkI sniper/TR(telescopic rifle) receivers and utilized the same No. 32 WW 2 era 4X scopes. Some consider these to be the best scopes of WW2 since they had repeatable return to zero when adjusted and had distinct clicks for windage and elevation. Optics are good and they are pretty rugged and fairly weatherproof. As a result they were not considered obsolete. The guns were rebarreled with heavy floated barrels in 308 and new heavy stocks.

Mine is a 1 MOA rifle with US M118 match ammo at its best and more like 1.3 average. Sweet rifle and nice to look at.
Click to expand...

Wow, thanks so much yall.

Mr Mike, any chance you could post up a pic of your L42?

Also, I was in the store the other day and one of the Enfields in there had a true detachable magazine, as in a very similar design to what you might see on a modern custom R700 or AI or M1A/M14. I was under the impression that the Enfield magazine wasnt something that could be detached easily.... was this a modification or something? Because as I understood it was designed for strip clips/chargers?

And was the L42A1 designed with an easily detachable mag?

And Mr Mike, do you know what the muzzle diameter of the L42A1 is? And if you had to compare the M39 Finn`s barrel to a contour available from Krieger or Bartlein or whoever, what is the M39`s barrel contour most similar to?



As far as the Mann device, Mr Kraig, Ive read as much as I could on it, and theres one thing Im still not getting. The way the barrel is set up, with the collar near the receiver, Im guessing that is where the barrel was clamped into the rest that would then slide along the V-block? What exactly did they secure the barrel collar with? And was that the only attachment point? As I saw an old Springfield photo where they had set up a .45 ACP Mann device with what looked to be 2 rings/collars...


Thanks again fine sirs.
Blake.
 
#32
The L42A1 has a pretty darn heavy barrel, heavier than an M39 which has the heaviest barrel for a service rifle of its time. The L42 barrel is straight, no taper, 308/7.62 Nato. Magazine is 10 rd box much like any Enfield. It is essentially a jazzed up WW2 Enfield sniper with a new heavy barrel and cool stock.

I have no photo hosting site, had photo bucket hated it and hate it even more now. I wish the site would allow direct attachments like the others I use.
 
#33
Just checked the muzzle diameter on my L42s (both BSA Shirleys converted in '71)... I got 0.67" using an RCBS caliper. The barrel diameter is reduced for the front sight. Just behind the front sight the barrel diameter is 0.8" Never checked the entire barrel.
 
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