Gunsmithing Springfield O3A4 Gunsmiths

[NRAShooter]

With the NRA now supporting the Vintage Sniper Rifle match, who could build a good match grade A4? Action, barrels and stocks seem obtainable, scope mounts are scarce but not unobtainable. Scopes are scarce too, but can be found too.

So if you want a good shooter who would you have build it and what would you do?

My thoughts: C type stock, pillar bedded stock, Timney trigger, Kreiger Barrel. Free float under handguard? The scope represents uncharted territory. Do O3 actions blue print like the Remmys?

I realize the Marine version with the big ole' Unertyl 8x would be a better shooter, but if you wanted to build an Army O3 A4 what would you do?

 

[former naval person]

Re: Springfield O3A4 Gunsmiths

Why bother BUILDING a vintage rifle...why not buy one and shoot it? Do we need these modern advantages such as building these "VINTAGE" rifles...cheating...stretching the rules...bending the rules to your advantage. DAMN if I'm not sick and tired of folks such as you present to be, trying to get EVERY stinking little advantage over folks who try to play by the rules. I bet you'd even modify your carburetor plate if you were in NASCAR...and then complain when you get caught. If you want to shoot vintage rifles...Shoot a fnkng vintage rifle. Don't build a 2010 state of the art "Vintage" rifle and pretend to be within the rules. Where, for God's sake is the SPIRIT of the sport? When I competed years ago, we all tried to play within the rules...and were gentlemen about it. This is, of course supposed to be a GAME. "Gamesmanship" be damned...it makes me puke to read questions like this. JMHO

 

[NRAShooter]

Re: Springfield O3A4 Gunsmiths

Buying a vintage 03A4 is about $3900-4500. 1940 technology. I would rather build one (I hope for less), but even if not, have it shoot better.

 

[gunnergirl81]

Re: Springfield O3A4 Gunsmiths

Gibbs makes a legal 03A4 clone and I believe its CMP legal. If I recall one of them won a regional match a while back. At about $900-1k, they are a decent deal and WAY cheaper than an original. We've got one of their Redfield jr rings/mount and M73 replica sets for our 03A4 clone.

About the above from FNP, I agree in priciple. If you want to shoot vintage, shoot vintage. Mastering the old USGI trigger will just make you better.

 

[ORD]

Re: Springfield O3A4 Gunsmiths

HA!!! Nice post, fnp...and I agree!! Unfortunately, the rules permit the kind of "modern" vintage (I know...I know...contradiction in terms) sniper rifle to be used in these comps and a whole host of people are building what NRAShooter is talking about.

To the OP...you probably should get a copy of the rules for the Vintage Sniper Rifle Matches before you get too far down the road of contemplating a rifle/setup because as it stands, you are saying you'd like a 1903A4, but in the next breath, you are talking about modifications that are plainly illegal/disallowed for these matches (like the "aftermarket" Timney trigger).

The Gibbs 03A4 rifles that Kenda mentioned are not bad shooters at all, but the M73B1 replica optic included with the rifles is a pretty poor excuse for quality in my experience with them (I have not seen their replica M82 or M84 scopes yet, so I can't comment on their quality). They also better represent the "spirit" of the Vintage Sniper Rifle Matches than some of the other, more "modern" equivalents I have seen. Personally, I'd look to the Gibbs rifle as a base platform and then get one of the many "approved/sanctioned" optics for it and then spend some time behind the trigger before you do anything! The rules are pretty good about the OEM/Repro scopes that can be used on the 03A4, which include ONLY the Weaver 330C, K2.5, and K3, as well as the M73, M81, M82, M84, and Lyman Alaskan.

One other benefit of the rules is the ability to shoot reloaded ammo with specific projectiles (which are basically wide open to include match bullets like the SMKs, VLDs, etc.). This really gives you an excellent opprtunity to get some quality ammo, tuned for your rifle, that will perform VASTLY better than your average .30-06 surplus/ball ammo!!

Good luck!!

 

[alongshot50]

Re: Springfield O3A4 Gunsmiths

I have to agree...WHY cheat? Call it what it is CHEATING. I own a "real" A4.I shoot it now and then. It's really cool to take it to my range and let some oldtimer vets shoot it. I have even hunted with it and my M1D to see what our snipers had to deal with. The M84 is alot better than M73b1. lets just say fogging is an issue. The rifle from gibbs has a new made barrel I think and the glass in the scope is also recent. I would bet its better than my orginal. Its funny people think their is some magical force that a "US WWII sniper" is able to shoot straighter and farther cause its a "sniper"....they were making these things as fast as possiable to get them in the feild, and waving the magic wand takes time, so alot of them didnt get it.
So go buy a gibbs play fair and learn to shoot not CHEAT

 

[NRAShooter]

Re: Springfield O3A4 Gunsmiths

Sorry to the pursuits I seemed to have offended, but I don't look at building a custom gun for a specific event as "cheating."

Similar racing cars, I enjoy the technology of having the most advanced competitive set ups available. In my opinion, competition breeds ingenuity. Look at NASCAR. Who would have ever thought a small block V8 could reliably turn 9,000 plus rpm, make 800 plus horsepower on a single 750 cfm carburator? Unbelievable. Same with the NM AR 15's that now shoot circles around the M14 in NRA High Power Rifle competition. Bullseye pistol is a good example too, with the AMU M9's in 9mm outshooting many of the 1911's at 50 yards. That's technology and progress.

I am just wondering who can build a tack driving 03? As far a cheating is concerned, I hate cheaters. I do believe in winning by utilizing superior training, techniques and equipment. By studying champions I've noticed that in many cases,they are more than superior athletes, they have actually perfected every facet of their competitive endeavor. This usually includes their equipment, support services, logistics, coaching, and everything else that is needed to make them the best.

IMHO, cheating is the intentional breaking of specific rules or the commiting of specified illegal or otherwise unauthorized methods and techniques including, but not limted to, the use of prohibited equipment, accessories or similar items.

Having the most technically efficient and effective piece or equipment or utilizing superior techinques that have been scientifically enginered which provides superior performance that comply within the rules, is "well thought out," not "cheating." What's wrong with trying to emulate the methods of those who are the best?

 

[pawprint]

Re: Springfield O3A4 Gunsmiths

NRA shooter, I think you are right on, cheating is cheating, but staying within the rules in an attempt to do ones best, is just smart. I don't think there are enough old A4s around, (if a lot of guys decided to get into this sport)for everyone. In fact, if it weren't for the "remakes" there wouldn't be enough around to even get it started, not to mention the cost of a good shooting, original A4 is a touch on the high side. Good luck to you-good shooting.

 

[former naval person]

Re: Springfield O3A4 Gunsmiths

Winning is everything I guess. Take Wall Street for an example. We used to call deprecating your abilities and equipment in order to win a match "sandbagging". Take your new custom "1903" and beat the competition. What REAL satisfaction do you get. You just beat the old/new sucker down the line that is shooting a REAL vintage rifle. He is playing by the implied rules. You stomped him. (I agree with paw print on one part of his comment...there are not enough A-4's out there...but be fair. Build or have built a rifle that is within the specs for WWII rifles...and compete on equal terms.) What satisfaction is there in that win except for another 20 cents worth of imitation brass on your mantle? (Even if you built it, to specs, it would be better...better barrels, better brass, powder, and not-to-mention, extremely improved bullets.) Shoot vintage in the spirit of the rules...don't stretch them for some cheating advantage...or find another game is my considered opinion. BYE

 

[NRAShooter]

Re: Springfield O3A4 Gunsmiths

Back to the original question: Who builds accurate Springfields? I was studying the action design and its a controlled feed bolt similar in many ways to the Pre 64 Model 70. If I am correct, then a good smith with experience building a match rifle circa 1970 would be a good place to start. Hmm, perhaps someone like Mid Tompkins would have a good reference. Anyone?

 

[VJJPunisher]

Re: Springfield O3A4 Gunsmiths

i owned a Gibbs for a bit, awsome replica. Just get one of them and have fun

heres a review of one from a member on here
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1316906

 

[Sniperhandle]

Re: Springfield O3A4 Gunsmiths

I compete in our local 1000 yard matches and you will see these guys that have spent $7000 and up on their equipt never even place while the guy that shows up with an out of the box savage cleans their clock. You cant just throw money at it, you have to look at every aspect of the sport and fine tune each one. It is more dependant on the persons abilities than the equipt, but the best equipt does help.

 

[frank505]

Re: Springfield O3A4 Gunsmiths

how about the guys making mexican match ammo instead of just shooting issued ammo in the CMP games at Perry? the gamesmanship aholes just gotta win no matter what.ignore them and they go away.

 

[billyburl2]

Re: Springfield O3A4 Gunsmiths

Does anybody know if there is a picatinney rail made to the contour of a Springfield rifle?

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Springfield O3A4 Gunsmiths

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Timney trigger, Kreiger Barrel. Free float under handguard? The scope represents uncharted territory.</div></div>

All that fancy crap is OUT,

Rifles may be re-barreled but must be in original caliber and contour. Rifles shall be in as issued condition, no fiberglass stocks, no bedding, no after market triggers and no artificial weight added to the rifle. Semi automatic rifles shall not have trigger pull lighter than 4.5 lbs, bolt action rifles shall not have trigger pull lighter than 2.5 lbs

RIFLE LEGAL SCOPES
G98, KAR 98 ZF 39 variants, Weaver K4 Original issue scope
No III Enfield Aldis, Winchester A5, William Malcom
3X or 6X, Weaver K4
P14 Enfield Aldis
91/30, M39 PE, PU
SVT 40 PU
K98 ZF39 variants, ZF 41, ZF4, Weaver K4
G43 ZF4
No 4(T) M32 variants, Lyman Alaskan, Weaver
K2.5, K3 or K4
1903 Springfield (1941) Any Unertl 6X or 8X with 1 – 1.5”
objective, Lyman Junior Target spot 6X
or 8X, Leatherwood Malcom 3X or 6X,
Winchester A5, Lyman 5A. Any scope
up to 8X with an objective no larger
than 1.5” with external adjustments
only. No recoil springs on scopes.
"1903A4 (1903A3) Weaver 330C, K2.5, K3, M73, M81, M82"
M84, Lyman Alaskan
M41/ M1B AGA 42, AGA 44, Ajack, ZF39 variants,
Weaver K4
M1C, M1D M81, M82, M84, Stith-Kollmorgan 4X,
Lyman Alaskan, Weaver K2.5, K3, K4
Type 97 and 98 Original issue scope

There is no cheating, rifles are randumly checked, but if you place, they WILL BE CHECKED.

The CMP Games are about the shooter not the gun. Any rifle capable of shooting 3 MOA can clean the 600 yard target. There is no reason to try to circumvet the rules.

The matches are run by CMP GSM Master Instructors and they know the rules. Just like the Vintage Rifle Matches, these matches are won on your hind legs, not your belly. If you want to win, PRACTICE.

 

[NRAShooter]

Re: Springfield O3A4 Gunsmiths

Well, Kreiger barrel than is legal. Blue printed action is too. Re worked trigger works too. No bedding is fine, but a fine inletting job will do just the same. Hmm, wonder about free floating the barrel under the handguards.

Man, for those who have such heartburn with modded gear, what do you do when the AMU or USMC RT shows up at a Rifle match? Acuse them of unfair advantage? I mean really, if you have the time and resources, what is the issue with trying to figure out how they do it so well?

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Springfield O3A4 Gunsmiths

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the AMU or USMC RT shows up at a Rifle match?</div></div>

I shoot my WOA AR or my Super Match M1A, that's because they are shooting High Power Matches, not GSM Vintage Mitilary matches. Its a different game altogether.

The one reason I like the CMP GSM Gamers is because everyone is on the same sheet of music. Just about everyone can afford a $500 Garand, or ever a $100 Mosin, not everyone can afford a $3000 M1A Super Match. GSM games are more about the shooter then the equipment.

 

[ORD]

Re: Springfield O3A4 Gunsmiths

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NRAShooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, Kreiger barrel than is legal. Blue printed action is too. Re worked trigger works too. No bedding is fine, but a fine inletting job will do just the same. Hmm, wonder about free floating the barrel under the handguards.</div></div>

Given your continued insistence on this whole process...I have to ask you if you have actually read the CMP rulebook yet concerning the nature/purpose/etc. of these matches, as well as the specific rules governing the Vintage Sniper Rifle Matches????

I am betting you haven't yet since the majority of these modifications, "updates" and "upgrades" you have planned run afoul of the rules!! Here is the link to the rulebook for your convenience:

http://www.odcmp.com/Competitions/Rulebook.pdf

I think everyone understands what you want to do and what advantage(s) you think you'll derive from doing them, but you are still contemplating things that are ILLEGAL under the rules. Specifically, the rules clearly state that rifles..."Must be in as-issued condition. No fiberglass stocks, special bedding (glass bedding, etc.), match triggers or <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">other special accurizing</span></span></span> are permitted."

Pretty straightforward rules (once you've read them), BUT...if you have questions/reservations/concerns about the advice you are getting, I encourage you to check out the CMP forums and for you to post up your concept/ideas/intentions with your proposed "vintage" sniper rifle for use in CMP comps and see if you get anything different.